Women in Engineering and Computer Science

[lisab]

I'm very interested to know as to what kind of "heavy objects" you're referring to here, specifically the weight of these objects and what is the "dirty work" and "days of physical labour"? It's good to know these things in its entirety because a lot of this is ambiguous and is dependent on the individual.

Why does it matter what the objects are? The things sweetpotato mentioned are found in many work environments.

My last job sometimes involved maneuvering large rolls of paper into band saws. How heavy were they? Well, some of the stronger men could move them around if they really tried, but most couldn't budge them. The environment was dirty, greasy, hot, and dusty. No one of either gender particularly enjoyed that part of it. And why were we wrestling huge paper rolls? Because the rolls had to be a certain size to fit into the prototype treater we used in R&D. Running prototype equipment is a big part of R&D, doing projects frequently took weeks and weeks to complete, and often required significant physical labor.

 

[sweetpotato]

The "heavy objects"- for example, we use these DC power supplies that are about 50-60 lbs. No, there's no way I can lift that over my head.

The "hours of physical labor" refers to wiring and installing items such as these DC power supplies for 8+ hours a day when the workflow of the company requires it and the technicians who are primarily in charge of doing this are too busy.

The "dirty work" refers to working on old equipment covered with dust and mouse droppings, being in contact with grease, sawdust, glue, crawling into small dirty spaces (behind equipment), lying down on the floor wiring and installing equipment.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

Why does it matter what the objects are? The things sweetpotato mentioned are found in many work environments.

My last job sometimes involved maneuvering large rolls of paper into band saws. How heavy were they? Well, some of the stronger men could move them around if they really tried, but most couldn't budge them. The environment was dirty, greasy, hot, and dusty. No one of either gender particularly enjoyed that part of it. And why were we wrestling huge paper rolls? Because the rolls had to be a certain size to fit into the prototype treater we used in R&D. Running prototype equipment is a big part of R&D, doing projects frequently took weeks and weeks to complete, and often required significant physical labor.

It matters because what is heavy for some may not be for others, also depending on the country, and almost all of EU, the USA and Australia requires that for "heavy" objects, either it's a team-lift or people use tools to maneuver them. No, I really want to know, I don't take people's word for things when they claim it's [whatever]. Surely "heavy" should have some kind of quantity attributed to it.

"Heavy" here is generally any object that's > 20kg, or some unusual size or shape that is considered to be difficult to maneuver.

So when someone from one of these countries claims there were items that were ridiculously heavy but required in the workplace to be moved around, I question the details of this. 1) because companies are unlikely to allow the practice to continue for lengthy periods of times, 2) people generally slack off.

So how heavy was it?

 

[sweetpotato]

It matters because what is heavy for some may not be for others, also depending on the country, and almost all of EU, the USA and Australia requires that for "heavy" objects, either it's a team-lift or people use tools to maneuver them. No, I really want to know, I don't take people's word for things when they claim it's [whatever]. Surely "heavy" should have some kind of quantity attributed to it.

"Heavy" here is generally any object that's > 20kg, or some unusual size or shape that is considered to be difficult to maneuver.

So when someone from one of these countries claims there were items that were ridiculously heavy but required in the workplace to be moved around, I question the details of this. 1) because companies are unlikely to allow the practice to continue for lengthy periods of times, 2) people generally slack off.

So how heavy was it?

I answered your question above.

However- just because a company should disallow certain practices or conditions doesn't mean they do. Even if they are "illegal". Regulation agencies such as OSHA don't come in every day checking up on workplace conditions and practices.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

The "heavy objects"- for example, we use these DC power supplies that are about 50-60 lbs. No, there's no way I can lift that over my head.

The "hours of physical labor" refers to wiring and installing items such as these DC power supplies for 8+ hours a day when the workflow of the company requires it and the technicians who are primarily in charge of doing this are too busy.

The "dirty work" refers to working on old equipment covered with dust and mouse droppings, being in contact with grease, sawdust, glue, crawling into small dirty spaces (behind equipment), lying down on the floor wiring and installing equipment.

50-60 lbs is not even a remotely heavy load, although by definition at a work place, it would be considered a "heavy" load and as such there are either tools required to maneuver them or several people to do it.

I don't mean to be rude, but oh boohoo, dusty, mouse droppings and greasy? If someone wants to do the work, I think they should not complain about it. I know it's not just me, as most of the work I do or have done in the past involves this kind of stuff, as it's our bread and butter, and I've never encountered any of the guys I work with complaining about it. If we're there for work, and we know what it entails, there's no whinging to tolerate, you get on with it. Triceps hurting? Tough, deal with it. Something's really too heavy, then use a tool or get others to lift it with you.

I frankly don't find any of the things you've mentioned even remotely overboard or difficult, and for me (and perhaps many others) it would seem like something that's welcoming. It's probably the reason why you see mainly men in jobs like the mechanic trade.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

I answered your question above.

However- just because a company should disallow certain practices or conditions doesn't mean they do. Even if they are "illegal". Regulation agencies such as OSHA don't come in every day checking up on workplace conditions and practices.

I was actually replying to lisab in that post.

Yes I do know that these things don't happen as per the guidelines, but I also do know that some of these posts of "difficult" labour is largely exaggerated. Some people may find "dirty" environments difficult to deal with, whilst for others it's pretty stock standard. And more often than not, it's men that are less likely to be affected by it.

If you can't deal with the work, or don't like it, why do it?

 

[lisab]

It matters because what is heavy for some may not be for others, also depending on the country, and almost all of EU, the USA and Australia requires that for "heavy" objects, either it's a team-lift or people use tools to maneuver them. No, I really want to know, I don't take people's word for things when they claim it's [whatever]. Surely "heavy" should have some kind of quantity attributed to it.

"Heavy" here is generally any object that's > 20kg, or some unusual size or shape that is considered to be difficult to maneuver.

So when someone from one of these countries claims there were items that were ridiculously heavy but required in the workplace to be moved around, I question the details of this. 1) because companies are unlikely to allow the practice to continue for lengthy periods of times, 2) people generally slack off.

So how heavy was it?

Each roll had different dimensions and properties, so their weight would vary. But this gives an idea:

http://www.printingpressman.com/images/clamp-truck-paper.jpg

It's hard work maneuvering an object that size. Good communication, teamwork, and yes even a bit of brute strength are all necessary.

The work environment you speak of is typical of predictable, production-type work. R&D is quite a different beast. Nearly every day, you do non-routine tasks that don't have safety protocols worked out. It's not for everybody.

 

[sweetpotato]

50-60 lbs is not even a remotely heavy load, although by definition at a work place, it would be considered a "heavy" load and as such there are either tools required to maneuver them or several people to do it.

I don't mean to be rude, but oh boohoo, dusty, mouse droppings and greasy? If someone wants to do the work, I think they should not complain about it. I know it's not just me, as most of the work I do or have done in the past involves this kind of stuff, as it's our bread and butter, and I've never encountered any of the guys I work with complaining about it. If we're there for work, and we know what it entails, there's no whinging to tolerate, you get on with it. Triceps hurting? Tough, deal with it. Something's really too heavy, then use a tool or get others to lift it with you.

I frankly don't find any of the things you've mentioned even remotely overboard or difficult, and for me (and perhaps many others) it would seem like something that's welcoming. It's probably the reason why you see mainly men in jobs like the mechanic trade.

I think you're missing my point. I enjoy my job and don't find these things unreasonably difficult. That's why I think I am just as able to do my job as a man. Except for the "heavy lifting", which we have discussed already.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

Each roll had different dimensions and properties, so their weight would vary. But this gives an idea:

http://www.printingpressman.com/images/clamp-truck-paper.jpg

It's hard work maneuvering an object that size. Good communication, teamwork, and yes even a bit of brute strength are all necessary.

The work environment you speak of is typical of predictable, production-type work. R&D is quite a different beast. Nearly every day, you do non-routine tasks that don't have safety protocols worked out. It's not for everybody.

I think that's incredibly silly. Look at the size of that?

Understandably the issue of a man vs woman moving something is rendered null and void in a scenario like that.

Clearly those kinds of objects are not meant to be moved by a single person. Why would anyone even want to bother unless it was just as a joke "amongst the guys" to see who's budging what.

Also note the forklift in use, probably the way that kind of item was meant to be moved.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

I think you're missing my point. I enjoy my job and don't find these things unreasonably difficult. That's why I think I am just as able to do my job as a man. Except for the "heavy lifting", which we have discussed already.

Then we're on the same page.

 

[lisab]

I think that's incredibly silly. Look at the size of that?

Understandably the issue of a man vs woman moving something is rendered null and void in a scenario like that.

Clearly those kinds of objects are not meant to be moved by a single person. Why would anyone even want to bother unless it was just as a joke "amongst the guys" to see who's budging what.

Also note the forklift in use, probably the way that kind of item was meant to be moved.

"Silly"? Yes they're large, aren't they?

"Joke amongst the guys" about moving large things? Not in my workplace; we're professional scientists and engineers and are expected to behave as such.

Yes I know there is a forklift in the pic. But now how do you get the roll from the forklift onto the bandsaw table? These kind of questions are solved every day when doing non-routine tasks.

With all due respect, you don't seem to have much experience with R&D.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

"Silly"? Yes they're large, aren't they?

"Joke amongst the guys" about moving large things? Not in my workplace; we're professional scientists and engineers and are expected to behave as such.

Yes I know there is a forklift in the pic. But now how do you get the roll from the forklift onto the bandsaw table? These kind of questions are solved every day when doing non-routine tasks.

With all due respect, you don't seem to have much experience with R&D.

I didn't claim to have experience in R&D, and neither do I have experience in R&D, that's just some kind of faulty assumption you're drawing.

However, I have worked as a labourer for a long time, and I don't need to have been in R&D to know how to move things around. Suddenly my physical ability is non-existent to move something heavy or my mental ability has diminished suddenly because I haven't worked in R&D?? Please get off your high horse "we're professional scientists and engineers yada yada"

If anyone here is lacking some understanding here, I think it's you. I'm going to assume you actually haven't worked in manual labour before? And I don't mean this silly example of trying to move this large roll onto a bandsaw.

To be honest, if you wanted to move this on to a bandsaw, you'd use a forklift. Either get a team lift to move it slightly so the forklift driver can lift it. Forklifts have high tilt rotations, this can easily be maneuvered onto a bandsaw. In fact, I thought you were joking when you first posed this question, but now I see you actually posed it because you have no idea what goes on in manual labour. These kinds of tasks are pretty much stock standard. They may not involve moving moving a roll onto a bandsaw specifically, but it could be anything from removing a 500kg truck axle mounted on a pallet of 3, onto a truck which is loaded with other items. There is plenty of grunt work involved, so don't think that just because you've worked in R&D that you believe you've experience some kind of labour difficulty that no one else has.

Unless you've been digging for days on-end, working 15-hour shifts that can rival an intense gym workout, don't blab about the difficult a team of scientists had with moving a roll onto a bandsaw, honestly? How heavy is that roll anyway?

Just the idea of "professional scientists and engineers" standing around talking about how they had labour difficulties moving a heavy object is enough to elicit laughter from the grunt blokes who do these kinds of things on a daily basis. In fact, if it weren't for your status on this board, I would have thought you were trolling.

Edit: There are plenty of ways to get that roll onto a bandsaw table, obviously I'm not going to parrot out solutions here because I don't know dimensions, nor weights of these objects and can only guess. What you're alluding to here is not some engineering solution, but a very bone-headed job task that any band of labourers should be able to do or do on a regular basis.

 

[mariexotoni]

i think some people become too condescending on these physics forums...why so attitudey?

 

[NewtonianAlch]

i think some people become too condescending on these physics forums...why so attitudey?

I think any forum has its share of "moments".

 

[NewtonianAlch]

Here's something that was designed by an R&D (historically speaking) team, and man-handled by a labour force.

I wonder what the men who built this thought of moving a large roll onto a band-saw, probably couldn't because they had no experience in R&D.

I don't mean to be "attitudey", but these kinds of statements are going to annoy the hell out of anyone who has worked as a labourer doing the hard yards.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2k1.jpg

 

[mariexotoni]

Tempting, but I won't..

anyways, i was just referring to whomever was getting after sweetpotato about what she thought was heavy. we can never understand the point of view of someone else. especially via internet. and some people take these forums wayyyyyyyy too seriously and I think they just want to argue. I'm not here for that.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

Tempting, but I won't..

anyways, i was just referring to whomever was getting after sweetpotato about what she thought was heavy. we can never understand the point of view of someone else. especially via internet. and some people take these forums wayyyyyyyy too seriously and I think they just want to argue. I'm not here for that.

Ah well, I definitely didn't come here to argue! I got distracted after seeing the topic title thinking it could be interesting, and now I've lost the plot on Laplace transforms, lol.

 

[mariexotoni]

lol okay good. but on a lot of the forums I've talked on, in the responses, people just have a they know everything attitude. I think it's fine to have a stance, but there's no need to be rudee. come on! this is physicsforums!

 

[NewtonianAlch]

lol okay good. but on a lot of the forums I've talked on, in the responses, people just have an act like they know everything attitude. I think it's fine to have a stance, but there's no need to be rudee. come on! this is physicsforums!

Absolutely, we should be working on an equation or something!

 

[mariexotoni]

so true!

 

[j3141592t]

Your reasoning that women leave the field of engineering after 5 or so years is due to emotions is exactly the kind of sexist viewpoint that drives us away. I have been in the civil engineering industry for 6 years, and I am extremely frustrated with the sexist, demeaning, and condescending attitudes of men, and even other non-engineer women, in the workplace. Time and time again, I have been given the most menial and mundane tasks. I have even been given secretarial tasks while my male counterparts without engineering degrees are performing more technical tasks. Even though I have more experience, the same skill set, and the same education, I am paid much less and receive little, if any respect from coworkers or subordinates. I hope that other engineering disciplines are not quite so closed minded, as I am making an industry change very soon. Being a woman in the Good Old Boy workplace of consulting civil engineering firms is miserable and incredibly boring. I do work in Texas, and that may have something to do with it.
To comment on the ease of getting jobs, I would agree that women, especially good looking women, do get jobs quite easily in this field. I almost always have multiple offers when changing jobs; however, I think this has more to do with the men wanting a cute engineer to work with rather than them wanting to utilize my skills.

 

[j3141592t]

Honestly, I haven't seen anything that looked like overt or even subversive discrimination of women in engineering. I think too many women start this field, and then drop out for a variety of reasons that have little to do with the practice of engineering, and everything to do with finding something they enjoy more.

Heavy industry technical challenges (not just engineering, but also the technical and trade work) appeal to many men for much of the same reason that it appeals to boys. It's big, dirty, noisy, and potentially dangerous. This is exactly the sort of thing that turns off most women. I know a few women who work on water and waste-water plants. It is routine, dirty, noisy, and dangerous work with approximately 10% women or less on the plant floor. The closer you get to the office, the more likely it is you'll find more women.

I know women with engineering backgrounds, and most tend toward the management side of things as soon as they can get enough experience to legitimately take charge. I know only a very few who stick to the raw engineering side of things for year after year because they like it. Yet I know many men who seem to really enjoy the innovative and creative side of building bigger, smaller, or really efficient things.

Those who suggest that this is cultural miss an important point: I think there may be more to this than meets the eye.

In addition, your attitude that women shy away from "dangerous" or "dirty" tasks is rediculous. I have crawled into sanitary sewer manholes. I have scaled water tanks. I am willing, able, and driven to do all the tasks that are required of me; however, it is the men I work with that consistently try to dissuade me from doing these things.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

In addition, your attitude that women shy away from "dangerous" or "dirty" tasks is rediculous. I have crawled into sanitary sewer manholes. I have scaled water tanks. I am willing, able, and driven to do all the tasks that are required of me; however, it is the men I work with that consistently try to dissuade me from doing these things.

If you have really been there and done that, then you probably have a narrow minded employer who is probably also narrow minded about a great many other things. It is time to look elsewhere.

It poor practice to take your particular situation and to assume that every other place must be the same. Don't judge my motives and experiences on based upon the acts of others.

 

[clarkkenny]

I think I know where you’re coming from, but businesses these days are very aware of the fact that they have to bring gender diversity in their staff and try to maintain a balance between male and female employees. My suggestion is, if you are interested in something, go for it without fear!

Are you only interested in computer engineering and computer science or are you open to other IT fields as well? Many women have also carved out successful careers as programmers. If that’s something you’d like to consider, then do take a look at CollegeAmerica's computer programming degree!

 

[jk]

If you have really been there and done that, then you probably have a narrow minded employer who is probably also narrow minded about a great many other things. It is time to look elsewhere.

It poor practice to take your particular situation and to assume that every other place must be the same. Don't judge my motives and experiences on based upon the acts of others.

That applies to you as well. It is poor practice to assume that because you haven't experienced something (due to your particular demographic perhaps, or just sheer luck, or the region you work in etc.) that it is not widespread when others are saying that it is widespread from THEIR experience

 

[NewtonianAlch]

If you are a man/woman and you can do what is required of you, and you want to do it, then do it. There's no point complaining because frankly most everyone's got something going against them, some more than others, but what's the point of complaining about it?

Anyhow, the issue of discrimination isn't as big as it used to be, it still exists, but if anything, we're moving in a positive direction.

Of course, my above statement applies to the general civilian workforce, and not sports and military, that's an entirely different ballgame.

 

[Bacle2]

women, or any worker shouldn't get discriminated against based on gender, race, or sexual orientation. they shouldn't get any less benefits than.. the white male. UNLESS, they are NOT fulfilling with the employer wants as well.

it's wrong that there is an assumption that women will be "less" dedicated to their work.

i think we're in a new kind of environment where women are now apart of the work field where it use to be dominated by men. we need a new approach to things.

I see a lot of women who seem to believe that males get a free ride, and that we're coddled all along. That is not my , nor my male friends' experience.

As to claiming discrimination, here is some data that suggests that difference in pay is justified; males are (or have been, so far, more likely to sacrifice their lives for their jobs/careers, than women. Please do show me some data showing that women who apply are accepted at a significantly-lower rate than equally-qualified men. Then I will agree with you.

Moreover, despite the fact that women are the majority in most areas in college, there are no programs to attract males. Like someone above said: life/society is unfair, and we all end up being affected by it.

 

[Bacle2]

For every story like yours, I bet I can find a case where a woman working in a technical field was barred from doing something she is capable of because of discrimination.

Again, I think one can argue that this is just an unfairness of life/society. Go to family court and see how fathers are treated; look how women receive much milder sentences for crimes similar to men's etc. We all pay , male, female.

 

[Bacle2]

that is the kind of environment we are in now- to dump the child responsibilities off on the mother. a paradigm has to occur.

Actually, the opposite is often now the case, since , in many couples, women have become the main --or only--breadwinner:

http://www.lizamundy.com/the-richer-sex/

i think some people become too condescending on these physics forums...why so attitudey?

I don't know others, but I get tired of the constant demonization of men by the extreme feminists. Yes, women are victims of injustice--so are men.

PS: My apologies, I am having some trouble with the quote function, sorry for the three posts, when one would have sufficed. Maybe some engineer can

figure out what's wrong with the button--no lifting necessary.

That applies to you as well. It is poor practice to assume that because you haven't experienced something (due to your particular demographic perhaps, or just sheer luck, or the region you work in etc.) that it is not widespread when others are saying that it is widespread from THEIR experience

I think the one making the claim should have the burden of proof.

 

[RoshanBBQ]

Your reasoning that women leave the field of engineering after 5 or so years is due to emotions is exactly the kind of sexist viewpoint that drives us away. I have been in the civil engineering industry for 6 years, and I am extremely frustrated with the sexist, demeaning, and condescending attitudes of men, and even other non-engineer women, in the workplace. Time and time again, I have been given the most menial and mundane tasks. I have even been given secretarial tasks while my male counterparts without engineering degrees are performing more technical tasks. Even though I have more experience, the same skill set, and the same education, I am paid much less and receive little, if any respect from coworkers or subordinates. I hope that other engineering disciplines are not quite so closed minded, as I am making an industry change very soon. Being a woman in the Good Old Boy workplace of consulting civil engineering firms is miserable and incredibly boring. I do work in Texas, and that may have something to do with it.
To comment on the ease of getting jobs, I would agree that women, especially good looking women, do get jobs quite easily in this field. I almost always have multiple offers when changing jobs; however, I think this has more to do with the men wanting a cute engineer to work with rather than them wanting to utilize my skills.

I doubt your perspective is true entirely. There has to be a catch. Some possibilities:

1.) Maybe you're just not that good, so you are treated worse on grounds of skill instead of gender.

2.) Maybe your personality let's people walk all over you. That is, a man who acted the exact same way you did would be pushed around and paid less equally. Remember, salary is negotiated between you and your employer. It's not something entirely out of your control.

3.) You call your work boring. People normally need passion to go above and beyond.

So you complain about being tasked with remedial work. When is the last time you spontaneously completed incredible work -- not for pay or out of requirement -- but to expand your knowledge in a field you should love as well as to secure respect and future opportunity? My brother, for example, is only an application engineer whose job is to create guis that interface with certain hardware, install the hardware, and setup the software at the job site. In his spare time, he created a new tool that is now sold in the official software package. He has earned a name at his job as being the go-to guy for the product, a great coder, and unbeatable when it comes to any challenge his job could present him. He leveraged his contribution to secure not only glory from his coworkers but also a more comfortable existence. He negotiated terms to work from home! ("I will leave if you don't let me work from home.") Given the same personality, skills, etc., I don't think much would have changed if my brother were a sister.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

Remember, salary is negotiated between you and your employer. It's not something entirely out of your control.

How far is this true?

Suppose a firm was hiring x amount of graduate electrical engineers, with little or no real work experience amongst them, same qualifications. Would they all be paid the same, or are there still "negotiations" happening?

 

[RoshanBBQ]

How far is this true?

Suppose a firm was hiring x amount of graduate electrical engineers, with little or no real work experience amongst them, same qualifications. Would they all be paid the same, or are there still "negotiations" happening?

I could see it to be wise for a larger corporation routinely bringing in groups fresh out of college enforcing all of these workers to come in at the same salary to avoid chatter about newcomers' salaries devolving into feelings of unfairness. On the other hand, I could also see a small standard deviation of about a couple of percent of the mean still going on without anyone seriously becoming upset.

I'm sure it comes down to company policy, but in the end, I think most corporations will pay you more if you come off the right way, however that way may be, given all measurable things are equal between you and your competitors.

 

[MojoMcGunner]

Wow, I've just read this thread and it's sort of terrified me... I'm 18, female and currently applying to do a masters in Particle Physics. I had assumed there was some kind of discrimination (there are very few places where there aren't a couple of idiots who don't want to work with women/blacks/gays/Jews/people with long fingernails, or whatever reason they can come up with to dislike a person they don't know), but this thread and the article someone linked earlier has given me the impression that it is a lot worse than I thought.

The main things coming through to me are that a) if I choose to have children I may never be able to advance my career to the level I would if I were either childless or a man with children, even if I were to return to work full time and continue with my previous level of dedication and b) some employers won't want to hire me in case I decide a year later that I want to have 4 children and spend years watching the Teletubbies and wiping noses whilst collecting a paycheck from them.

Obviously there would be many employers/colleagues/workplaces which don't work in that way at all, but the fact that there will be certain institutions in which I would never be seen as an equal member of staff is worrying, because it's something I essentially have no control over.

I mean, there's nothing I can do about it, I've never wanted to do anything other than physics so I guess I'll just have to see what happens. I'm reminded of something my guitar teacher told me a while ago - "the fact that you have a legitimate excuse for not having practiced your scales doesn't change the fact that you're still not very good at your scales".

Interestingly though, I was speaking to a friend's relative who is doing her PhD in particle physics right now and she said that in her experience and that of her female friends, it is possibly slightly easier to get work and university placements as a woman in physics, but when they started, men made comments about them only being there because of the fact that they're women.

Thankyou for this thread though, it has certainly given me something (else) to think about, even if that things is quite worrying.