Work life balance. and if you're female?

[physarrista]

so...
I'm a woman, I study physics, I love science and I get freakishly excited at the prospect of doing research. I am seriously considering it as a career. But then, I look around and damn, the vast majority of my professors are male. They work a lot, do exciting research, and most manage to have kids and a wife at home.
I see our few female physics professors and, yeah, they're all childless.
My uncle is a University prof, as is another distant relative: they both have very talented wives, who sacrificed their own career in order to have a family.
And I wonder, is this even possible for me? Can I have a career in science AND a family? Should I dump my boyfriend (who’s considering staying in research himself) for a man who’s happy to be a stay at home dad?

I once met a woman prof (in psychology) who told me it’s either kids or science for women. Not both. How can a woman work 15 hour days consistently in order to stay competitive with her male colleagues and have a family at the same time, while everybody around her has a spouse who’s busy caring for the family life.

I really don’t know, what my question is, I guess I’m just asking for input, opinions and experiences from older members. I’m at a point in my life where I’m starting to weight my options and damn, I really feel discouraged to stay in research.


**Edit: I should probably add, that I will refuse to argue over the brain capabilities of girls in physics or any such nonsense.**

 

[DaveC426913]

Do what you love. If and when you want kids, you'll find a way. Don't close any more doors than you have to or earlier than you have to.

 

[Werg22]

Kids... who needs them?

 

[quark80]

There's a few female researchers around who have families...But you'll find that most of them have established themselves before they do it. They're either in longterm postdocs or have tenure. So the family comes a fair bit later than would ordinarily be the norm. I suppose it's different for everyone though and accidents do happen :)

I'm still in grad school, so I can't speak from personal experience...Only from what my colleagues chat about over morning coffee :D

 

[verty]

It sounds to me like you need to decide in a responsible way what you want to do. If you feel like you want a family, approach that from a position of knowledge. Why would you want children? What do they represent, perhaps an experience you can't get otherwise, or clay to be moulded, or simply the chance to do what everyone does?

Would you feel that you missed something, some vital essence of life, by remaining childless? Could your potential children ever mean more than the unique research you could do? Should they? There are millions of children in the world, but not too many women professors. Why follow the mundane path?

 

[FUNKER]

Its not like you want to get pregnant now is it?
So why worry whether you will or won't later on. Just hit the physics now, follow your path and see where you end up

 

[verty]

Funker, don't you ever feel like a ship at sea, following the wake but not knowing where it'll lead? Why not rather lay anchor, consult the map and plot a course?

 

[imastud]

Would you feel that you missed something, some vital essence of life, by remaining childless? Could your potential children ever mean more than the unique research you could do? Should they? There are millions of children in the world, but not too many women professors. Why follow the mundane path?

I think that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. There's nothing mundane about having kids. I think there are a lot more people that regret choosing career over kids than people regretting choosing kids over career. Maybe I'm just naive but I daresay that there are few parents that have regretted having their kids and probably get cramp up at the thought that they ever might have chosen their career over having them.

 

[Werg22]

I think that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. There's nothing mundane about having kids. I think there are a lot more people that regret choosing career over kids than people regretting choosing kids over career. Maybe I'm just naive but I daresay that there are few parents that have regretted having their kids and probably get cramp up at the thought that they ever might have chosen their career over having them.

Haha, you don't know what my parents say

 

[FUNKER]

Funker, don't you ever feel like a ship at sea, following the wake but not knowing where it'll lead? Why not rather lay anchor, consult the map and plot a course?

Taken out of context

 

[verty]

Actually, I saw half of a movie last night, called "Baby Boom" with Diane Keaton. It is about a career woman who is landed with a very young girl relative and tries to juggle the career and parenting but her career is compromised, and then I stopped watching, but the point is that I think it gives a really good portrayal in the first half of an intellectual society and I think it looks great. Especially since it was made in 1987, it looks like another world compared to the reality today of wars and terrorism and a society geared to the young.

The introduction to the movie:

Sociologists say the new working woman is a phenomenon of our time. Take J.C. Wyatt for example, graduated first in her class at Yale, got her M.B.A. at Harvard. Has a corner office at the corner of Th and park. She works 5 to 9, makes six figures a year and they call her the "Tiger Lady". Married to her job, she lives with an investment banker married to his. They collect African Art, co-own their own co-op and have separate but equal IRA accounts. One would take it for granted that a woman like this has it all. One must never take anything for granted.

 

[Astronuc]

so...
I'm a woman, I study physics, I love science and I get freakishly excited at the prospect of doing research. I am seriously considering it as a career.

Cool!

I see our few female physics professors and, yeah, they're all childless. My uncle is a University prof, as is another distant relative: they both have very talented wives, who sacrificed their own career in order to have a family.

That is often the case, but doesn't necessarily have to be that way.

And I wonder, is this even possible for me? Can I have a career in science AND a family?

Yes - find a worthy man. Don't compromise.

Should I dump my boyfriend (who’s considering staying in research himself) for a man who’s happy to be a stay at home dad?

The fact that you ask if you should dump the boyfriend is not a good sign.

I once met a woman prof (in psychology) who told me it’s either kids or science for women. Not both.

Bull****

How can a woman work 15 hour days consistently in order to stay competitive with her male colleagues and have a family at the same time, while everybody around her has a spouse who’s busy caring for the family life.

Find a worthy man. (Didn't I just say that?)

I really don’t know, what my question is, I guess I’m just asking for input, opinions and experiences from older members. I’m at a point in my life where I’m starting to weight my options and damn, I really feel discouraged to stay in research.

Find an area of research which interests you and become the best at it - THE expert!

On the family side - you have to determine what is important to you.

**Edit: I should probably add, that I will refuse to argue over the brain capabilities of girls in physics or any such nonsense.**

Me too!

I have some female colleagues who are PhDs in NASA and DOE. One just had first child (a son). The husband helps out and NASA accommodates her schedule. I know several women in the local community who are scientists, engineers or managers and they seem to manage career and family.

In my organization, we have a woman who is a PhD structural engineer, who IIRC has two children. As far as I know, she manages a family and a career quite well - and she is a fine engineer. A good company will support a good employee.

Best wishes and good luck!

Go for it!

 

[Mute]

My current supervisor, who only came to the university three or so years ago (I believe this is her first professorship), had a child last summer. She's back at work now, and her child stays at the daycare on campus while she's at work. Her husband is also a postdoc in the department, so it's not like he stays at home with the baby. They don't work 15 hour days, mind you - I think they leave around five? Perhaps there's simply not all that much competition in what she does. Of course, she also has graduate students who have done a lot of work building the machines, who typically run the experiments, etc..

 

[ranger]

nd I wonder, is this even possible for me? Can I have a career in science AND a family? Should I dump my boyfriend (who’s considering staying in research himself) for a man who’s happy to be a stay at home dad?

I once met a woman prof (in psychology) who told me it’s either kids or science for women. Not both. How can a woman work 15 hour days consistently in order to stay competitive with her male colleagues and have a family at the same time, while everybody around her has a spouse who’s busy caring for the family life.

IMHO, the advice you're psychology professor gave you is the best advice. I would also give you the same. If you're ever going to take a course in child psychology (which you should if you plan on having kids), it will become apparent why you cannot do both.

Some people will be quick to say that the advice your prof. gave you is wrong and harsh. But these are the same people who never took child psychology class. You must understand that having a child is not a 3 hour a day [part time] responsibility. Even my mother, who is also in the teaching profession, was a stay at home mom for the first few years on my life (which are the most important years).

 

[imastud]

i think a lot of it depends on the kind of researcher and parent you want to be. i mean if you want to be a scientist on the level of say lisa randall from harvard, it would be really hard to put in that much work into research and still be a GOOD mother (or father for that matter) because the job is so intellectually demanding and you will probably be emotionally unavailable for your kids. i think it wouldn't be a problem if you were say part of the faculty of say a liberal arts school where the output demand of faculty is less intense.

 

[theperthvan]

It sounds to me like you need to decide in a responsible way what you want to do. If you feel like you want a family, approach that from a position of knowledge. Why would you want children? What do they represent, perhaps an experience you can't get otherwise, or clay to be moulded, or simply the chance to do what everyone does?

Would you feel that you missed something, some vital essence of life, by remaining childless? Could your potential children ever mean more than the unique research you could do? Should they? There are millions of children in the world, but not too many women professors. Why follow the mundane path?

You are a bloody joke. I bet you spend your whole life chasing the wind.

Anyway, having kids is very noble.

 

[mr_coffee]

My aunt is a chemical engineer and she loved her career so much, didn't get married until 39, and now is having kids and could care less about her job, she loves her children and regrets not having them earlier but they are her number one priority now.

I agree, i think people regret not having a family and choosing a career over it, then later in life become lonely and empty.

 

[Werg22]

It seems strange to me that someone would think about having kids this early... family shouldn't be part of your plans when your young.

 

[Math Is Hard]

The way I figure it: you don't necessarily get to pick when you'll meet Mr. Right and when you'll have your kids. But you can decide when you'll go to school and what you'll study. So focus on the things you can plan, and all the rest is gravy. You might meet the love of your life this summer - or 20 years from now - who knows.

Last winter, a biology researcher and teacher I know wasn't even thinking about having kids. Ka-boom! Now she's the mother of twins. And she's still teaching and researching, and even directing the undergraduate research program at my university.

 

[imastud]

It seems strange to me that someone would think about having kids this early... family shouldn't be part of your plans when your young.

You make a good point, but I think most women in their early-mid twenties feel the urge (alot of this coming from pressure from their friends and family) to find a good guy and settle down with a family while they are still at their peak attractiveness level and the effects of aging haven't really set in yet. I mean, let's be honest, there arent many guys who are going to stick with a woman through the tumultous grad school/post-doc phase where they could relocate 3-4 times before finding a steady job. And most wanna-be scientists don't find a steady job until they're in their thirties, and there aren't a whole lot of successful guys on the market for 30-something women that aren't making doctor/lawyer money when they could probably find somebody richer or younger.

 

[Pyrrhus]

The way i see it is, study what you want, research what you're interested in, and go for your dreams. It doesn't matter if you're male or female, just make sure you won't have regrets that you settled down, and had to forgot your dreams.

 

[flybyme]

My ex girldfriend's mother and father are both accomplished professors in microbiology, running and administrating their own research groups. They seemed to do all right. Sure, it hasn't been an Ordinary Joe experience for any of the (three) kids, but it can be done if you want to.

 

[TMFKAN64]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how you can be a decent parent, spouse, or whatever if you are working 15 hours a day.

It seems to me that the idea that working that much could *possibly* be a good thing is a reflection of much of what is wrong with our society.

 

[flybyme]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how you can be a decent parent, spouse, or whatever if you are working 15 hours a day.

It seems to me that the idea that working that much could *possibly* be a good thing is a reflection of much of what is wrong with our society.

How is it wrong to work much?

 

[quark80]

Why do I get the impression judging by the comments that most of the people posting on this thread are guys?

It's all well and good for the guys to say
* I don't see how you can be a decent parent if you're working 15 hours a day?
* Why follow the mundane path
etc.

How many of you truly understand the pressure females are under to settle down and have a family? The unbelievable amount of crap you get from colleagues for not wanting to do that no matter the reason for not wanting it?

 

[verty]

Quark, what are you arguing for, that because women are under pressure to settle that they should? That sounds rather sexist to be honest. I see no more reason why a man might remain a bachelor than why a woman might remain a spinster.

Sometimes you must make a choice based on what is right, not on what is comfortable. I don't mean to suggest that having children is necessarily bad, far from it. I just mean that I see it as being perfectly fine for someone to hold off on having a family to set up their career, and then making time for it in the future if one's opinion changes. I don't like the suggestion that everyone should follow some path because it is a de facto norm.

If I am a bloody joke because I think outside what I consider to be arbitrary conventions, then I'll take that as a compliment.

 

[quark80]

Quark, what are you arguing for, that because women are under pressure to settle that they should?

Hell no! I'm female. But there really is enormous pressure from other's (at least in my workplace) to settle down, get married and have kids. It's a pressure that the guys in my department don't have to deal with. And the impression given out is that they'd prefer you to have kids before offering tenure so that they know it's out of your system and not going to effect your worklife as much. Like I said, it's the impression given by the people who run the department.

Sometimes you must make a choice based on what is right, not on what is comfortable. I don't mean to suggest that having children is necessarily bad, far from it. I just mean that I see it as being perfectly fine for someone to hold off on having a family to set up their career, and then making time for it in the future if one's opinion changes. I don't like the suggestion that everyone should follow some path because it is a de facto norm.

I absolutely agree with this. But that's not the way things are in reality. Like I said above, there is really enormous pressure on females to settle down and have a family before being offered tenure (at least from my own experience). I'm not saying that it's right, far from it...But that's reality I'm in the situation where I simply don't want kids, yet I get asked constantly when I'm going to settle down and start a family. People automatically assume that it's what every female wants to do. It has nothing to do with career, I just don't like kids. Yet I'm stuck with the problem of trying to convince people that I'm not going to change my mind in a couple of years and thus want to take time off.

Maybe it's something we'll just disagree on I'm only speaking (or typing as the case may be) from my personal experience. Which is what the OP wanted.

 

[J77]

I was talking to a female physicist at a recent conference who was heavily pregnant and had just got a promotion to full professor.

If you don't want it to, I don't see how having kids affects what you do at work.

 

[quark80]

^^ You're right, it doesn't have to! But it's difficult trying to convince the powers that be of that

 

[Apost8]

I'm in the situation where I simply don't want kids, yet I get asked constantly when I'm going to settle down and start a family. People automatically assume that it's what every female wants to do. It has nothing to do with career, I just don't like kids.

I'm a man and I'm constantly questioned at work about when we are going to have kids. When I tell people we don't want kids, they either a) look at me like I'm crazy, or b) tell me we're still young (I'm almost 30) and that we'll change our minds. It's very insulting.

 

[Panda]

This is a subject close to my heart but from the otherside.

When my partner and I decided to start a family we both wanted to be there for him/her pretty much full time until he started school and then there for him out of school hours until he was in his eatrly teens and could look after himself.

We both earn almost the same so there was no financial motive to who would stay at home. I am pretty bored with my job as a rocket scientist and the other half quite liked her project management job, so it was quite clear that after the initial phase where I was not fully equiped to do the looking after bit, I would take a break from work, and take the opportunity to retrain as a beach bum. All nice and organised as you would expect between two professionals.

Then a baby arrives, and the whole hormone thing cuts in. Suddenly all the carefully laid plans are thrown out of the window and the prospect of ever going back to work is pie in the sky. To be honest, seeing my plans to be a proffesional beach bum thrown out the window and the prospect of spending the next 30 years stuck in my cubicle didn't please me, but I in truth had little say when the hormones were talking.

In the end we have compromised, mainly because our balanced financial situation means that our income has been halved and we couldn't afford both food and alcohol, so I was beginning to starve. I do three days a week, and her now out of doors does three days a week, and little one gets granny care for a day.

So in truth, the reason why so many women stay at home is not necessarily due to a logical choice they made before having kids, your priorities seriously change, and it is not just the women who have to relook at their lives.

I'm lucky that our company allows us to be flexible both in hours and days and that our jobs could be rehashed such that with our skills and experience it will not affect our prospects as we had both recently regraded and are a long way from the next level.

I would say as a warning that my sister post divorce decided to concentrate on her carrear, and has done well moving from PA to Financial Manager in a city bank, but she hit 40 and has no kids and is really feeling that clock ticking hard, esspecially as her little brother now has a family.

I would recommend that you hold off the kid thing until you are secure in your work place, but set an alarm clock for 30-35 to seriously consider where you want to be in your old age, a retired proffessor or a grandmother.

 

[Astronuc]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how you can be a decent parent, spouse, or whatever if you are working 15 hours a day.

If 15hrs a day (essentially 2/3's - and does that included getting to and from work) was the norm - I'd quit.


Generally speaking -

Marriage is a partnership (or it should be).

Parenting is shared responsibility (or it should be).

Don't expect something from another that one does not expect of oneself.

 

[TMFKAN64]

Amen. My point was that working 15 hour days is bad for men *and* women equally...

 

[TMFKAN64]

How is it wrong to work much?

Work is not everything in life. At least I don't think it should be...

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

Find yourself a real dumb guy, one that is really into nascar and backyard fishing that is in enthralled by your research and the subject you are studying and convince him to become a stay-at-home dad and a member of the 'team'. The team will consist of you researching and making a living while he stays at home taking care of the kids and making sure the house is in order. He will have dinner for you when you get home and then you can spend your evenings with your family.

Problem solved.

<3

In all honesty, I would focus on your career now and then make a decision regarding children later. Remember, should you decide you want to start a family, you can always take a leave from school. It's difficult to make those sorts of plans for the future and since I am a male, I can't give you very applicable advice.