If East Germany Could Secure Their Border So Can America

[Ivan Seeking]

Before his security detail handcuffed a reporter to a chair following a town hall event in Alaska over the weekend, Senate candidate Joe Miller [R] told the audience at his event that if “East Germany” could secure their border during the Cold War than the U.S. should be able to stem illegal immigration from Mexico...

http://www.mediaite.com/online/joe-miller-if-east-germany-could-secure-their-border-so-can-america/

Has it come to this? We now look to our former enemies for solutions to our problems. As I recall, "the wall" stood as a symbol for everything we oppose. It was in part what defined the enemy.

One of the most famous lines from one of the most famous Republicans ever was, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" No doubt Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

 

[drankin]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/joe-miller-if-east-germany-could-secure-their-border-so-can-america/

Has it come to this? We now look to our former enemies for solutions to our problems. As I recall, "the wall" stood as a symbol for everything we oppose. It was in part what defined the enemy.

One of the most famous lines from one of the most famous Republicans ever was, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" No doubt Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

Apples and Oranges. The point was we can build a wall to prevent illegal immigration into the US while the Berlin Wall was contructed to prevent East Germans from leaving East Germany:

"The Soviet-dominated Eastern Bloc officially claimed that the wall was erected to protect its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a Socialist State in East Germany. However, in practice, the Wall served to prevent the massive emigration and defection that marked Germany and the communist Eastern Bloc during the post-World War II period." - Wikipedia

 

[Evo]

The Berlin wall was how long? How long is the US/Mexico border? What kind of terrain was in Berlin, what is the terrain of the Mexican border?

Will be be allowed to shoot down in cold blood anyone trying to cross, no questions asked?

Where do people come up with these idiotic ideas?

 

[drankin]

The Berlin wall was how long? How long is the US/Mexico border? What kind of terrain was in Berlin, what is the terrain of the Mexican border?

Will be be allowed to shoot down in cold blood anyone trying to cross, no questions asked?

Where do people come up with these idiotic ideas?

Who said anything about shooting down people in cold blood?

A wall may be impractical, but a muli-layered fence is doable. Spend some of that stimulus money on it. There would be jobs in it for awhile. Maintenance afterwards.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Who said anything about shooting down people in cold blood?

To the extent that the Berlin Wall worked at all, it worked by shooting down people in cold blood. 136 people died trying to cross. But it didn't work, at least 5000 people crossed it successfully.
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/features/11/09/09/facts-about-berlin-wall"

A wall may be impractical, but a muli-layered fence is doable.

Just as impractical. A "no-man's land" ran the length of the Wall, varying from the width of a street to about 300 metres.

Spend some of that stimulus money on it. There would be jobs in it for awhile. Maintenance afterwards.

It ran for about 100 miles. There were some 300 watchtowers and 20 bunkers were manned by seven units of 1,000 to 1,200 soldiers each. The US-Mexican border is about 2000 miles long.

Edit: And the East Germans controlled the departure side.

 

[edward]

Who said anything about shooting down people in cold blood?

A wall may be impractical, but a muli-layered fence is doable. Spend some of that stimulus money on it. There would be jobs in it for awhile. Maintenance afterwards.

I am in AZ and we keep hearing about a two or three layer fence. The first two layers will be torn down and sold for scrap by the illegals. The final one will be found full of holes.

Most of the border is in very remote areas. Build a twenty foot fence and they will find a twenty one foot ladder.

We spent millions on a virtual fence that was to be built by Boeing. The first 14 towers were built with all kinds of sophisticated sensing equipment. The problem was that they could not see over a hill.

Our most recent immigration law, the controversial AZ SB 1070, which I favored originally was written by the private prison industry. The governors assistant chief advisor was formerly a lobbyist for Corrections corporation of America and his wife still is.

CCA stood to make millions off of detainees if there was a massive round up of illegals.

The first thing we need to do is get the politicians and special interests out of the situation.

The national guard helps, but all that they are allowed to do is report locations of illegals. They are not allowed to detain or enter into any kind of firefight.

This only emboldens the drug dealers knowing that the national Guard will back off from a confrontation.

Miller is full of himself about a comparison to the Berlin wall.

 

[drankin]

Of course anyone can get beyond a fence if they want but it's a way to symbolize a border. It's more of a psychological statement. "This is our country, that is your country." It's better than nothing at all to distinguish a border. Easier to monitor a fence than an imaginary line.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

It's more of a psychological statement.

We live in a era of empty gestures. This one costs too much. Why don't you just wear a ribbon or something.

 

[turbo]

We live in a era of empty gestures. This one costs too much. Why don't you just wear a ribbon or something.

Yeah! A magnetic ribbon made and printed in China that you can slap on your gas-hog. That'll do it.

 

[jobyts]

As George Lopez joked,

“Who do you think they'll get to build the wall?”

 

[CAC1001]

Will be be allowed to shoot down in cold blood anyone trying to cross, no questions asked?

Where do people come up with these idiotic ideas?

I have read the Israelis had a problem with their border and they built a fence to stop them. A fence on the American border is not to stop any and all illegal immigrants from crossing, it is to turn what is (or was) a flood into a trickle. Of course some people will make it across. A few people here and there making it across is not a problem.

To the extent that the Berlin Wall worked at all, it worked by shooting down people in cold blood. 136 people died trying to cross. But it didn't work, at least 5000 people crossed it successfully.
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/features/11/09/09/facts-about-berlin-wall"

Then I'd say it worked. 5,000 is a miniscule amount in the grand scheme of the Cold War. The idea was to stop what was a flood of people leaving and turn it into a trickle.

 

[CAC1001]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/joe-miller-if-east-germany-could-secure-their-border-so-can-america/

Has it come to this? We now look to our former enemies for solutions to our problems. As I recall, "the wall" stood as a symbol for everything we oppose. It was in part what defined the enemy.

One of the most famous lines from one of the most famous Republicans ever was, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" No doubt Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

Totally different situations. The Berlin Wall was so a brutal dictatorship could forcefully prevent people from being able to leave.

A fence on the American border is to stop people from illegally entering the country in massive numbers.

 

[turbo]

Totally different situations. The Berlin Wall was so a brutal dictatorship could forcefully prevent people from being able to leave.

A fence on the American border is to stop people from illegally entering the country in massive numbers.

Which is different how? Is it necessary to have a "brutal dictatorship" on one side and "freedom" on the other? How about being able to make enough money to keep your family alive vs NOT? The jingoism on the immigration debate makes rational debate impossible.

 

[Evo]

I have read the Israelis had a problem with their border and they built a fence to stop them. A fence on the American border is not to stop any and all illegal immigrants from crossing, it is to turn what is (or was) a flood into a trickle. Of course some people will make it across. A few people here and there making it across is not a problem.



Then I'd say it worked. 5,000 is a miniscule amount in the grand scheme of the Cold War. The idea was to stop what was a flood of people leaving and turn it into a trickle.

We have fencing already, it's not working.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_–_United_States_barrier

Something like $1 billion was set aside for a new fence a few years ago.

Why do people post if they don't know what is going on or what has already been done?

 

[turbo]

]Why do people post if they don't know what is going on or what has already been done?

It's fun to kick up **** and pretend that they know something. Already disproven by the "quality" of the post, usually.

 

[lisab]

The problem is not going to be fixed once and for all with a fence.

There are dozens of clever ways to get here - by air, water, tunnel, train, back of a truck. Blocking one way doesn't get to the root cause of why they come. They come because there are no good opportunities at home, and they need to earn money for their families.

This issue ties into a theme that I hear from challengers this election cycle: all it takes to solve our problems is a little common sense...as if all our problems are just so dang simple. I wish it were so.

 

[CAC1001]

Why do people post if they don't know what is going on or what has already been done?

I was aware of that fence, my understanding however was that the government was rather half-heartedly going about it. I'm talking about a serious fence.

 

[CAC1001]

Which is different how? Is it necessary to have a "brutal dictatorship" on one side and "freedom" on the other? How about being able to make enough money to keep your family alive vs NOT? The jingoism on the immigration debate makes rational debate impossible.

I don't get what you're saying. The Berlin Wall was so a dictatorship could hold people back from leaving the country. A border fence is to keep people (in particular a good number of criminals) from illegally entering the country. Arizona right now is the kidnapping capital of the world outside of Mexco City: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

 

[turbo]

I don't get what you're saying. The Berlin Wall was so a dictatorship could hold people back from leaving the country. A border fence is to keep people (in particular a good number of criminals) from illegally entering the country. Arizona right now is the kidnapping capital of the world outside of Mexco City: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

America was founded and bolstered by emigration. It may be possible to continue that progression, absent the jingoism and sloganeering of the neo-cons. Our society has always benefited by immigrants who were willing to work very hard and accept less than already-established workers. This is the historical version of "free trade" though it happened over decades, not years, and it greatly benefited the productivity of our country.

 

[edward]

On foot the fence isn't the biggest obstacle. Two to three days walking in the desert is.

They take the seats out of vans and stack people in on top of each other. The record number caught in one van was 21 illegals.

This mini van was pulled over by Boarder Patrol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyrugCTk-xk

 

[NobodySpecial]

If you want a Wall several thousand miles long - cheap, have you thought of outsourcing it to China ? They do have some experience.

(Wasn't terribly effective at keeping out invaders though)

 

[Evo]

I don't get what you're saying. The Berlin Wall was so a dictatorship could hold people back from leaving the country. A border fence is to keep people (in particular a good number of criminals) from illegally entering the country. Arizona right now is the kidnapping capital of the world outside of Mexco City: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

<sigh> You're probably too young to know the atrocities committed in conjuction with the Berlin Wall.

 

[Evo]

America was founded and bolstered by emigration. It may be possible to continue that progression, absent the jingoism and sloganeering of the neo-cons. Our society has always benefited by immigrants who were willing to work very hard and accept less than already-established workers. This is the historical version of "free trade" though it happened over decades, not years, and it greatly benefited the productivity of our country.

Post again after we send 5 million illegal aliens and their families to Maine.

 

[Char. Limit]

Post again after we send 5 million illegal aliens and their families to Maine.

Am I allowed to post if I'm near Washington? I think most of our immigrants are Canadian, if there's even immigration at all into Washington.

 

[CAC1001]

America was founded and bolstered by emigration. It may be possible to continue that progression, absent the jingoism and sloganeering of the neo-cons.

I would say it is the "neocons" who are the ones who will not enforce the border. I mean Reagan granted amnesty to illegals. George W. Bush tried to. McCain was never very anti-illegal immigrant. Part of the reason for this as well I'd think is that many of the Big Business interests that lobby these types of Republicans want access to illegal immigrant labor (Dick Morris pointed out that the labor unions and the Democrats want the illegals to vote, but not work, and the Republicans want them to work, but not vote).

It is more the libertarian, isolationist wing of the Right that strikes me as being very anti-immigrant, like Tom Tancredo for example.

Our society has always benefited by immigrants who were willing to work very hard and accept less than already-established workers. This is the historical version of "free trade" though it happened over decades, not years, and it greatly benefited the productivity of our country.

Sure, but such immigrants did not bring their crime to America the way many illegals do nor did they come solely to just milk the social service system. They came, as you said, to work.

 

[CAC1001]

<sigh> You're probably too young to know the atrocities committed in conjuction with the Berlin Wall.

Are you misunderstanding my post, because now I'm confused I am well aware that many atrocities occurred in conjunction with the Berlin Wall, like I said, it was so a brutal dictatorship could keep people inside the country.

The idea behind a wall on the American border is not to commit atrocities, it is just to stop illegal immigrants from entering the country in large numbers.

Right now, to an illegal, if the current ones are granted amnesty with an open border, that basically says, "Come to America, hide out for around ten to twenty years, and eventually you'll get granted amnesty."

 

[turbo]

Post again after we send 5 million illegal aliens and their families to Maine.

My family was "undesirable" aliens. During the depression, French-Canadian families were the enemy. It is a good reason to evaluate positive influences and try to cull the ethno-nutzo idiots from the population.

 

[Evo]

The idea behind a wall on the American border is not to commit atrocities, it is just to stop illegal immigrants from entering the country in large numbers.

We already have a fence, and it's defended by Border Patrol Agents. You don't understand the issue with coyotes.

 

[CAC1001]

Coyotes?

 

[Evo]

Coyotes?

They are the immigrant smugglers that bring all of the immigrants axcross the border. In spite of the fence, in spite of the National Guard, in spite of Border Patrol.

 

[Barwick]

Well we COULD just get rid of our welfare state, that'd be a large deterrent for illegals thinking of coming here.

Honestly, for the millions who probably are here, here's my solution:

1) Register with us right now
2) You will be allowed to reside here and given permanent resident status
3) You will NEVER get to become a US citizen, you broke our laws
4) *Many* more people will be allowed to immigrate into the US and get green cards, visas, and permanent resident status
5) The number of people granted citizenship per year remains the same.
6) Anyone else who comes in after date XYZ and is illegal WILL be immediately deported upon discovery of them being here. It is going to be very easy to legally move here, but still difficult to become a citizen.

 

[CAC1001]

3) You will NEVER get to become a US citizen, you broke our laws

I think if we could figure out how to stop the large numbers of illegal immirants crossing the border, that it would be fine to grant the ones already here citizenship. I mean they're here now, they are not leaving. The problem is granting them citizenship with the border open.

 

[NobodySpecial]

1) Register with us right now
2) You will be allowed to reside here and given permanent resident status
3) You will NEVER get to become a US citizen, you broke our laws
4) *Many* more people will be allowed to immigrate into the US and get green cards, visas, and permanent resident status
5) The number of people granted citizenship per year remains the same.
6) Anyone else who comes in after date XYZ and is illegal WILL be immediately deported upon discovery of them being here. It is going to be very easy to legally move here, but still difficult to become a citizen.

Wouldn't it be more fun to just put you all on reservations and force you to run casinos and make things from beads for the tourists?

 

[Proton Soup]

it would be easy enough to rectify. just do what we're doing for Afghanistan. go in, kill the bad guys, install a new government, and keep the bodies out of the press.

 

[mheslep]

As others have said, the Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, the goal of the fence on the southern US border is to keep people out. The symbolism of this difference as pertains to the nature of the US vs E. Germany is obvious.

The goal of the fence on the southern border is to stem the large flow of illegals, on the order of http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06770.pdf" , not to be relatively speaking air tight as was the Berlin Wall. A southern fence would be a huge success if reduced the illegal stampede to even tens of thousands per year, and a double fence is completely capable of doing so. There's evidence coming in now from the areas with good fencing showing the fence works - San Diego and parts of Texas.

Before the fence was built, all that separated that stretch of Mexico from California was a single strand of cable that demarcated the international border.
[...]
"It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."

Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector. He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928

Apparently one person can use a twenty foot latter to scale a fence, but not so fast for one million over a double fence. Build the fence, and I suspect the country will gladly go along with immigration reform for the millions already in the country.