- #176
skeptic2
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NobodySpecial said:Not always - I understand many of the english immigrants still haven't learned any native languages after 400 years
And many Mexicans would say the same about the Spanish immigrants.
NobodySpecial said:Not always - I understand many of the english immigrants still haven't learned any native languages after 400 years
NobodySpecial said:Not always - I understand many of the english immigrants still haven't learned any native languages after 400 years
lisab said:That's quite possible, but I don't know of such groups where I live. The immigrants I knew growing up were mostly Mexican, and most were assimilated by the second generation, or at least bi-cultural.
Where I live now there's a crush of them from eastern Europe, and they're assimilating extremely quickly.
I've read assimilation is becoming an issue in some places in Europe - perhaps the immigrant communities there have reached a critical mass, making assimilation unnecessary? Just a guess.
You'd think things like tunnels would be trivially easy to locate and shut down. With a team of 20 border agents, each in charge of a 100 mile section, driving along their border sections once every other day or so with a suitable ultrasonic device you'd think should eliminate the tunnel issue. But obviously the problem must be harder than I'm imagining.edward said:If the can't go over the fence they go under it.
The 1,800-foot tunnel is the 75th discovered on the U.S.-Mexico border since 2006, according to John Morton, director of ICE. The lighted and ventilated passageway connects two warehouses east of the Otay Mesa border crossing, a two-story building in Tijuana and another warehouse in San Diego.
Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized#ixzz14N91MhlA http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized
You're proud of America because America is your country, period. And why is it your country ?CAC1001 said:Some countries are better than others, but that is not based on patriotism, that is just based on facts. You can very much say, "Mexico may be a crappy country, but it's still MY country, and I am a proud Mexican."
I am proud to be American because of many things about America and what it has accomplished. Doesn't mean America is perfect or had any perfect history (treatment of native Americans, slavery, Jim Crow, etc...).
So irrespective of what his rationale is, you've decided that his pride is a form of religion? Incidentally, what if his great grandfather was born in Europe or Japan?Siv said:You're proud of America because America is your country, period. And why is it your country ?
Because your great grandfather happened to be born there, or moved there, rather than a few hundred kilometers north or south or east or west.
Now if you were born a European but were proud of America, or if you were an American and proud of Japan, that wouldn't be a religion. But this is.
Gokul43201 said:So irrespective of what his rationale is, you've decided that his pride is a form of religion? Incidentally, what if his great grandfather was born in Europe or Japan?
edward said:If the can't go over the fence they go under it.
Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized#ixzz14N91MhlA
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized
Char. Limit said:Basically, what he's saying is that you're only allowed to be proud of a country if you're not part of that country.
Which is nonsense.
Galteeth said:No, no no, it's makes total sense to be proud to be an American, because we all know that objectively, America is the greatest country in the world. Having pride in any other country is just crazy. Or at least that's what I gather from my nightly Glenn Beck watching.
Cause you know, at least I know I'm free, etc. etc.
It was quite a nice tunnel, it had obviously been made by profesional engineers.WhoWee said:I think the tunnel mentioned a few posts back is worth discussing.
Then it would not be a religion - please read what I wrote -Gokul43201 said:So irrespective of what his rationale is, you've decided that his pride is a form of religion? Incidentally, what if his great grandfather was born in Europe or Japan?
Now if you were born a European but were proud of America, or if you were an American and proud of Japan, that wouldn't be a religion. But this is.
Ok, Char.Limit. First of all, I am a "she".Char.Limit said:Basically, what he's saying is that you're only allowed to be proud of a country if you're not part of that country.
Which is nonsense.
Wow, the PF I remember from 7-8 years ago was a much nicer place.jarednjames said:This thread is done. In the last two pages there's barely a mention of the whole fencing issue.
Haven't unsubscribed from a thread in a while. But unfortunately I keep getting emails full of rambling non-sense.
Siv said:Then it would not be a religion - please read what I wrote -
Ok, Char.Limit. First of all, I am a "she".
Second of all, it is not nonsense (calling something nonsense is an argument since when ?).
Patriotism is "my country right or wrong" - theistic religions are "my god right or wrong". There is no rationale to either. It is our innate sense of "us vs. them" is all.
I suggest the reason for the difference in assimilation is the perennially weak job creation rate in Europe compared to the US (until recently). Especially in the troubled areas you mention, Muslims immigrate to Europe but can't get a job because of things like the employer restrictions and a less than stellar entrepreneurial culture. They linger none the less because of the largess of extensive welfare systems, while retreating into isolated communities. Hopefully this is a cautionary tale for a US government considering policies hostile to business.CAC1001 said:A big problem in Europe from what I understand is Muslim immigrants, who due to the Europeans not requiring them to assimilate, have essentially formed their own little "countries within-a-country." There are areas within France and Germany, Sweden, and I think even the UK now (?) where the police will not even go into, because it is too dangerous. They have had problems with Muslims rioting in France in particular, they also have rioted in London and Stockholm.
There isn't such a Muslim problem in the United States because Muslims here have mostly been assimilated; we don't have whole communities of Muslims that do not assimilate and become rather radicalized like in Europe. [...]
Not all communities choose to assimilate, visited a camera store in New York recently?CAC1001 said:A big problem in Europe from what I understand is Muslim immigrants, who due to the Europeans not requiring them to assimilate, have essentially formed their own little "countries within-a-country."
Unlikely - there were areas of the UK where the police couldn't go and the army had to be used. But that was due to christians - we are still waiting for them to assimilate but it's only been 1500 years so we need to give them a chance.There are areas within France and Germany, Sweden, and I think even the UK now (?) where the police will not even go into, because it is too dangerous.
Everybody riots in France. If the croissants are cold they burn barricades in the streets.They have had problems with Muslims rioting in France in particular, they also have rioted in London and Stockholm.
Or more likely numbers and timing. Europe has a larger muslim community - mostly from former empire countries in the UK and France or Turkish guest workers in the case of Germany. The children of the people who first migrated after WWII are now more assimilated.mheslep said:I suggest the reason for the difference in assimilation is the perennially weak job creation rate in Europe compared to the US (until recently).
Siv said:You're proud of America because America is your country, period. And why is it your country ?
Because your great grandfather happened to be born there, or moved there, rather than a few hundred kilometers north or south or east or west.
Now if you were born a European but were proud of America, or if you were an American and proud of Japan, that wouldn't be a religion. But this is.
Patriotism is "my country right or wrong" - theistic religions are "my god right or wrong". There is no rationale to either. It is our innate sense of "us vs. them" is all.
Siv said:Wow, the PF I remember from 7-8 years ago was a much nicer place.
Largely semantics though nowadaysCAC1001 said:Patriotism and nationalism are different
A 100yds? That's 30,000 towers, and at least as many guards! I think you could achieve the same with towers 1000 yds apart - I think that's still within fairly easy viewing distance for most parts of the border region.jarednjames said:A 20ft fence, 15ft above ground, 5ft below ground. Floodlit and monitored with infrared and other such sensor tech. Guard towers every 100yds with armed, shoot to kill guards (well perhaps not that last one).
Gokul43201 said:A 100yds? That's 30,000 towers, and at least as many guards! I think you could achieve the same with towers 1000 yds apart - I think that's still within fairly easy viewing distance for most parts of the border region.
ThomasT said:Ok, so what's the prevailing opinion here? Is a border obstacle with monitering and militarization sufficient to significantly decrease the flow of illegal immigrants going to happen? My guess is no. It won't happen.
Ok, that means a minimum of about 100,000 guards stationed on the border. That's based on the assumption that each guard will do an 8 hour shift on actual guard duty each day. They do have to sleep you know. Also, unless anyone here has actually done guard duty in a situation where it was likely that they might get shot at, then you have no idea how much an 8 hour shift can take out of you.jarednjames said:A 20ft fence, 15ft above ground, 5ft below ground. Floodlit and monitored with infrared and other such sensor tech. Guard towers every 100yds with armed, shoot to kill guards (well perhaps not that last one).
Welfare is enough. But there's more than that. The US is huge. There are VERY large Mexican populations all over the US. There's work here. It's nice here. It's safe here. People in the US have no idea what's happening in Mexico. It's a very bad place to live if you're poor, and not so good even if you have money.WhoWee said:We need to ask ourselves why these people want to come here. If our manufacturing plants have relocated to Mexico - it had to create local employment. If Mexico has a national health care system - is our Medicaid system better for them? Our economy is in the tank, Obama is talking about unemployment extensions - we're not offering a lot of well paying jobs. Other than welfare, what motivates these people? We don't have these problems on the northern border.
No. This would never be appropriate or implemented. The vast majority of illegal immigrants aren't criminals but just poor folks seeking a better life. If we started shooting them, then I would renounce my citizenship in disgust and move to Sweden or somewhere. On second thought, maybe southern Italy -- it's warm there isn't it?WhoWee said:... hence (going back a few pages) shoot to kill might be appropriate?
ThomasT said:Welfare is enough. But there's more than that. The US is huge. There are VERY large Mexican populations all over the US. There's work here. It's nice here. It's safe here. People in the US have no idea what's happening in Mexico. It's a very bad place to live if you're poor, and not so good even if you have money.
No. This would never be appropriate or implemented. The vast majority of illegal immigrants aren't criminals but just poor folks seeking a better life. If we started shooting them, then I would renounce my citizenship in disgust and move to Sweden or somewhere. On second thought, maybe southern Italy -- it's warm there isn't it?
Thank the gods (old school, never mind).WhoWee said:Let's stay focused - I don't want to shoot anyone.
Elaborate?WhoWee said:If we address the immigration issue comprehensively, the border reverts back to a customs issue.
Ok, maybe it's just me. I just woke up. What are you talking about?WhoWee said:The US is a nice place to live, but the concept of using welfare to buy votes is unpleasant.
Not even close - the tunnel above was 100ft deep and came up 1/4mi into the US.jarednjames said:A 20ft fence, 15ft above ground, 5ft below ground. Floodlit and monitored with infrared and other such sensor tech. Guard towers every 100yds with armed, shoot to kill guards (well perhaps not that last one)
Because we don't have the manpower. We've got a certain lesser percentage of the manpower that we had, say, 40 years ago during the Vietnam thing. There's currently no draft/conscription. Our troops are spread over the entire world. We actually do not have the manpower that it would take to police the Mexican border, much less the entire southern US border.jarednjames said:Im curious, i don't know what troops do when they arent deployed to a war zone, so the way i see it, why can't they post that man power to the border?
No. There are fewer troops available than you might think, even though, technologically, the US military is far superior to any other nation. More planes, more ships. more nuclear weapons, etc. -- but not more people under arms.jarednjames said:There are thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of troops available. Just seems logical to me. At least then they are actually defending the country.