Michael Moore's Sicko Banned in Cuba, Too Rosy

[talk2glenn]

Michael Moore's "Sicko" Banned in Cuba, Too "Rosy"

Has Assange proven himself useful, after all?

The Cubans banned the Michael Moore propaganda piece because it painted too rosy a picture of the local healthcare system, which no Cuban would have believed, according to the State Department. Apparently a group of Cuban doctors who were allowed by Dear Fidel to watch the "documentary" were so upset by the distortions that they walked out! This sounds like satire, I know, but apparently its true. Too rich.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/wikileaks-cuba-banned-sicko

Cuba banned Michael Moore's 2007 documentary, Sicko, because it painted such a "mythically" favourable picture of Cuba's healthcare system that the authorities feared it could lead to a "popular backlash", according to US diplomats in Havana.

This won't be news to anyone with half an ounce of sense, but I suspect a number of this boards more notoriously progressive posters will be genuinely shocked at the suggestion that Moore could possibly have made it all up

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Never saw it.

Given that my wife and her sister have been in health care for over 35 years each, with my wife complaining about the descent of health care into chaos, in the US, for the last 25 years, not to mention the nightmare that our family went through for six years with my mother, I don't need Moore to tell me the system isn't working.

 

[russ_watters]

Has Assange proven himself useful, after all?

Useful for what? He didn't get the movie banned in Cuba. You mean useful for poking a finger in the eye of Democrats? Republicans already knew Sicko was propaganda and Democrats don't care. So this doesn't change anything for anyone.

 

[russ_watters]

Given that my wife and her sister have been in health care for over 35 years each, with my wife complaining about the descent of health care into chaos, in the US, for the last 25 years, not to mention the nightmare that our family went through for six years with my mother, I don't need Moore to tell me the system isn't working.

Hmm. My girlfriend's brother just got a new heart valve at CHOP and except for the urinay catheter was apparently a pretty pleasant experience.

No two people have exactly the same experience.

 

[Gokul43201]

Hmm. My girlfriend's brother just got a new heart valve at CHOP and except for the urinay catheter was apparently a pretty pleasant experience.

No two people have exactly the same experience.

While I generally agree with the last sentence, I believe someone who is working in the industry over a few decades has direct knowledge of several hundreds or thousands of individual cases, and is therefore able to speak from a more statistically significant set of experiences than say, a single user who has had a single interaction with the industry.

Nevertheless, I'd much rather have an objective scientific study than thousands of anecdotes.

PS: Not getting the Assange reference.

PS2: Just read the article. Previous PS rescinded.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm also missing the Assange reference, and also nonplussed. Who cares that this happened when it was always laughable in the first place? Yes, our system is terribly broken, but Cuba is an absolute ****hole for the average citizen.

 

[Office_Shredder]

The revelation, contained in a confidential US embassy cable released by WikiLeaks

He's the one that "leaked" this. I'm not sure how a movie being banned could possibly not be public knowledge though

 

[turbo]

This story is currently playing out, and it will be interesting to see how the mainstream press covers it. According to Moore himself, the film was shown on Cuban national TV on April 25, 2008 (both the Cubavision Roundtable and the Education Channels) and subsequently was released in theatrical screenings.

Moore claims that the leaked cable claiming his movie was banned was propaganda aimed at discrediting his film. We'll see.

 

[Mathnomalous]

The film was indeed shown on April 25, 2008 at 5:50pm by the Canal Educativo. That is not Michael Moore making that claim; that is Cuban newspapers making that claim. Here are the links, in Spanish language:

http://www.cubasi.cu/desktopdefault.aspx?spk=160&clk=195482&lk=1&ck=100358&spka=35

http://www.juventudrebelde.cu/cuba/...reno-del-documental-sicko-en-la-mesa-redonda/

http://www.juventudrebelde.cu/opinion/2010-07-15/el-proximo-bocado/

I find it truly amazing that people actually believe Cuba would ban a movie that makes them look good when compared to the US. The critical thinking process "flew out the window." Truly unbelievable... Cuba, a nation we are told uses propaganda to control its population, "banned" "propaganda" that portrays Cuba in a beneficial way... and people eat it up!

 

[WhoWee]

The film was indeed shown on April 25, 2008 at 5:50pm by the Canal Educativo. That is not Michael Moore making that claim; that is Cuban newspapers making that claim. Here are the links, in Spanish language:

http://www.cubasi.cu/desktopdefault.aspx?spk=160&clk=195482&lk=1&ck=100358&spka=35

http://www.juventudrebelde.cu/cuba/...reno-del-documental-sicko-en-la-mesa-redonda/

http://www.juventudrebelde.cu/opinion/2010-07-15/el-proximo-bocado/

I find it truly amazing that people actually believe Cuba would ban a movie that makes them look good when compared to the US. The critical thinking process "flew out the window." Truly unbelievable... Cuba, a nation we are told uses propaganda to control its population, "banned" "propaganda" that portrays Cuba in a beneficial way... and people eat it up!

It sound as if there might be more to the story - perhaps the Cubans thought they were going to be the beneficiaries of "Cuban Health Care Reform"? LOL

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hmm. My girlfriend's brother just got a new heart valve at CHOP and except for the urinay catheter was apparently a pretty pleasant experience.

No two people have exactly the same experience.

True, one my mother's 7 surgeries and my dad's 6 went pretty well too. Of course mom is crippled and dad is dead, but it wasn't all bad.

No doubt about it though, they have heart surgery down to a fine art. The biggest problems we saw were the result of a lack of continuity of care as the patients get bounced around in the system. This nearly killed my mother several times, and it did ruin her life.

Luckily they both had good insurance.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Nevertheless, I'd much rather have an objective scientific study than thousands of anecdotes.

I'm not sure anyone knows how to measure the misery of patients and the families trying to cope with the system.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm quite sure no one tracked the years that my mother suffered horribly, and needlessly.

 

[WhoWee]

I'm not sure anyone knows how to measure the misery of patients and the families trying to cope with the system.

I just spent a week in a hospital ICU with a family member. Walking around and sitting in the room, I took note of some features.
1.) the hospital had new equipment in the room - no obvious need for improvement - all good.
2.) the hospital had obviously invested countless $ millions on the look of the facility and visitor comfort - large HDTV's in every room, plus plush sofas and lounge chairs, and tables and chairs. The family lounge had sleeper sofas, large HDTV, and showers. The hospital looked more like a hotel than a healthcare facility. Btw - the lobby had artwork, several fountains and a wall mounted waterfall.

 

[russ_watters]

While I generally agree with the last sentence, I believe someone who is working in the industry over a few decades has direct knowledge of several hundreds or thousands of individual cases, and is therefore able to speak from a more statistically significant set of experiences than say, a single user who has had a single interaction with the industry.

Maybe, but it is also true that the healthcare worker is looking at those cases from the other side of the fence and may not have the same perception as the patients and their families. However...

Nevertheless, I'd much rather have an objective scientific study than thousands of anecdotes.

Agreed, especially since people with a personal stake in the issue lack objectivity required to judge it fairly. I don't know my girlfriend's family's true feelings, but I know they disliked some of the doctors and the situation was pretty emotional/stressful so their take might have differed from mine as a somewhat disinterested 3rd party.

As well, the healtcare worker's stake in the issue is tied to the day-to-day stresses of the job. Bad experiences have a way to stick-out and build-up while good experiences aren't always "newsworthy" and given as much thought.

Either way, yes, an objective 3rd party study is the best way to judge... but judge what? I'm actually not even sure what the exact debate point is and I don't want to get into a big healthcare debate anyway.

 

[mugaliens]

The Cubans banned the Michael Moore propaganda piece because it painted too rosy a picture of the local healthcare system, which no Cuban would have believed, according to the State Department. Apparently a group of Cuban doctors who were allowed by Dear Fidel to watch the "documentary" were so upset by the distortions that they walked out! This sounds like satire, I know, but apparently its true. Too rich.

Heavens to Murgatroyd! You mean Michael Moore actually distorts reality in his films? (insert shocked look of disbelieving horror)

(faints)

This won't be news to anyone with half an ounce of sense...

Of course not, Lol.

...but I suspect a number of this boards more notoriously progressive posters will be genuinely shocked at the suggestion that Moore could possibly have made it all up

I find it difficult to believe that intelligent, thinking, well-educated human beings could possibly throw such vast amounts of common sense out the window as to buy into Mr. Moore's babble. He may start off with a shred of truth, or dangle bits and pieces here and there like worms on a hook to keep someone's attention, but that's all.

 

[mugaliens]

I just spent a week in a hospital ICU with a family member. Walking around and sitting in the room, I took note of some features.
1.) the hospital had new equipment in the room - no obvious need for improvement - all good.
2.) the hospital had obviously invested countless $ millions on the look of the facility and visitor comfort - large HDTV's in every room, plus plush sofas and lounge chairs, and tables and chairs. The family lounge had sleeper sofas, large HDTV, and showers. The hospital looked more like a hotel than a healthcare facility. Btw - the lobby had artwork, several fountains and a wall mounted waterfall.

When too many hospitals are built and facilities are underused (bed utilization here in the Springs is often less than 50%), staying afloat requires coaxing those who's medical expenses are covered by insurance in full, and to do that, they must spent boatloads making the hospitals more attractive. The downside is that this raises the cost of healthcare insurance for everyone (insurance is largely spread out over the population), to the point where many can no longer afford it at all.

 

[nismaratwork]

Heavens to Murgatroyd! You mean Michael Moore actually distorts reality in his films? (insert shocked look of disbelieving horror)

(faints)



Of course not, Lol.



I find it difficult to believe that intelligent, thinking, well-educated human beings could possibly throw such vast amounts of common sense out the window as to buy into Mr. Moore's babble. He may start off with a shred of truth, or dangle bits and pieces here and there like worms on a hook to keep someone's attention, but that's all.

I would tend to agree, and I'm not seeing this wave of support for the guy on PF or elsewhere. He had an interesting point in Bowling For Columbine, but that was a loooong time and too many riffs on new themes. Much as a comic is spoiled by the birth of a child (usually), I think documentarians are destroyed by too much success.

 

[turbo]

Regardless of any "wave" or lack of support for Michael Moore here or anywhere else, it seems like a lot of right-wingers have been anxious to trumpet and repeat (ad nauseum) the claim that Moore's movie was banned in Cuba because it was too generous in portraying Cuba's health-care system as effective. The claim was ignorant, and is being exposed as such.

This crap has been spreading all over the right-wing blogosphere as if it were the gospel truth. And every repeating seems to use the same verbiage verbatim over and over. Is there not a single right-wing mouthpiece that could have spent a few seconds on Google to see if Sicko was actually aired in Cuba (on two national channels, no less), or to have investigated whether Sicko actually got theatrical release and multiple airings after the TV exposure?

What is the problem, people? Are Cubans failed humans? Are they creeps or sociopaths? Maybe we need our media to grow a pair.

 

[mheslep]

What is the problem, people? Are Cubans failed humans? Are they creeps or sociopaths?

The Cuban leadership is.

 

[talk2glenn]

Idunno what to believe anymore.

Michael Moore says it wasn't.

State says it was.

Conflicting news stories all around. Either way, the whole affair is rich. This has been the brightest spot in my weekend, I think. Either way, I win. Either it was banned, and Michael Moore is utterly discredited, or it wasn't, and State had the prescience to know that it's classified cables would be leaked years in advance, and falsified the record to discredit Moore in 2010.

Regardless of any "wave" or lack of support for Michael Moore here or anywhere else, it seems like a lot of right-wingers have been anxious to trumpet and repeat (ad nauseum) the claim that Moore's movie was banned in Cuba because it was too generous in portraying Cuba's health-care system as effective. The claim was ignorant, and is being exposed as such.

My source was the Guardian, hardly a bastion of right-wingerism. This story is mainstream, my friend, and goes back to 2007, apparently.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Cuba...=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=a20cfd04ba3c5cf9

Again, I still don't know what to think, but here's what it looks like. The film was not shown until mid-April 2008, well after anecdotal stories regarding a ban or censure had made their way through Western media. I'm also going to guess that the State memos pre-date these showings as well.

My guess is the Cuban government, to wipe the egg off of their faces, responded to the news by lifting the censure. This is speculation, of course, but the alternative makes no sense (how does State mentioning the ban in classified cables smear Moore's reputation, and what incentive or means does State have to do so - it's not an intelligence organization).

 

[WhoWee]

Regardless of any "wave" or lack of support for Michael Moore here or anywhere else, it seems like a lot of right-wingers have been anxious to trumpet and repeat (ad nauseum) the claim that Moore's movie was banned in Cuba because it was too generous in portraying Cuba's health-care system as effective. The claim was ignorant, and is being exposed as such.

This crap has been spreading all over the right-wing blogosphere as if it were the gospel truth. And every repeating seems to use the same verbiage verbatim over and over. Is there not a single right-wing mouthpiece that could have spent a few seconds on Google to see if Sicko was actually aired in Cuba (on two national channels, no less), or to have investigated whether Sicko actually got theatrical release and multiple airings after the TV exposure?

What is the problem, people? Are Cubans failed humans? Are they creeps or sociopaths? Maybe we need our media to grow a pair.

I'm not sure if you're defending the Cuban health care system or just on another rant about "the right wing" - care to clarify?

Do you honestly believe Moore was accurate in his presentation and that ALL Cubans enjoy the same benefits and treatment?

 

[nismaratwork]

The Cuban leadership is.

All leaders are creeps and sociopaths... the Cuban leadership is actually criminal and psychotic... way past the usual.

 

[Amp1]

I agree with Mathnomalous post #9. It doesn't make sense that Cuba would turn down propaganda that benefits them while making the US look bad in comparison.

 

[Al68]

All leaders are creeps and sociopaths...

That's a pretty broad brush there...all leaders?

the Cuban leadership is actually criminal and psychotic... way past the usual.

+1. I've often wondered why some rich American hasn't privately come to the defense of the Cuban people and took those "psychotic" leaders out.

Ross Perot maybe? He's a nutcase, but I love how he hired people to bust his employees out of Iranian prison.

 

[turbo]

I'm not sure if you're defending the Cuban health care system or just on another rant about "the right wing" - care to clarify?

Do you honestly believe Moore was accurate in his presentation and that ALL Cubans enjoy the same benefits and treatment?

I made no such assertions. I'm just disgusted that the "banning" story could be repeated over and over when a few minutes of research could have cleared it all up. Mathnomalous managed to dig up stories in Cuban print archives about the premier showing of Sicko on Cuban state TV channels. Where are all the "journalists" who should have been exercising due diligence before rushing to print?

 

[Al68]

I agree with Mathnomalous post #9. It doesn't make sense that Cuba would turn down propaganda that benefits them while making the US look bad in comparison.

+1. Moore's film was pro-communist propaganda. Cuba's communist regime couldn't ask for much better.

 

[Mathnomalous]

I think M. Moore is a liar and a hypocrite (why would I have to pay money to see your film about how much capitalism sucks, Mr. Moore? ). Still, I do not understand why some US official in La Habana felt it necessary to spread lies about a liar and I simply shake my head at irresponsible news outlets trying to rush news out without fact-checking. All these news outlets needed to do was Google "sicko prohibido cuba" to fact-check that info.

On a related note, when will Fidel kick the bucket?

 

[Al68]

...it seems like a lot of right-wingers have been anxious to trumpet and repeat (ad nauseum) the claim that Moore's movie was banned in Cuba because it was too generous in portraying Cuba's health-care system as effective...This crap has been spreading all over the right-wing blogosphere as if it were the gospel truth.

Can you provide any links for those claims? Why would right-wingers want to go out of their way to say that Cuba's communist regime didn't approve of Moore's pro-communist propaganda?

The fact that the communist regime approved of Moore's propaganda piece seems far more advantageous for "right-wing mouthpieces".

 

[Antiphon]

On a related note, when will Fidel kick the bucket?

Not for a while. I understand his medical care is top-notch.

I have four bottles of champagne chilling in the fridge. One of them gets popped on Dead Fidel day.

 

[Al68]

Not for a while. I understand his medical care is top-notch.

I have four bottles of champagne chilling in the fridge. One of them gets popped on Dead Fidel day.

What about the other three? Chavez?

 

[nismaratwork]

What about the other three? Chavez?

I think Chavez and his regime have become genuinely dangerous to the region. His new ability to create law by decree is a terrible step for such an industrialized nation. When we finally get out of the middle east and accept that it's hopeless, we're going to realize we've really ignored our own sphere.

 

[Antiphon]

What about the other three? Chavez?

Yes; Chavez, Kim Jong Il, and Jimmy Carter for creating the Iranian monster, shooting his girlfriend's cat, and being a reliable Jew-hater.

 

[WhoWee]

Yes; Chavez, Kim Jong Il, and Jimmy Carter for creating the Iranian monster, shooting his girlfriend's cat, and being a reliable Jew-hater.

Ouch...I figure anything Jimmy says or does is brother Billy's fault.

 

[mheslep]

All leaders are creeps and sociopaths... the Cuban leadership is actually criminal and psychotic... way past the usual.

Nihilism? I think you'll find that's illusory and a dead end.