Exploring the Mayan Underworld: Ancient Ruins Found

[baywax]

There should be some good finds here.

Portal to mythical Mayan underworld found in Mexico
Thu Aug 14, 8:18 PM

By Miguel Angel Gutierrez

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Mexican archeologists have discovered a maze of stone temples in underground caves, some submerged in water and containing human bones, which ancient Mayans believed was a portal where dead souls entered the underworld.

Clad in scuba gear and edging through narrow tunnels, researchers discovered the stone ruins of eleven sacred temples and what could be the remains of human sacrifices at the site in the Yucatan Peninsula.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/080815/n_science_reuters/science_mexico_mayans_dc

 

[wolram]

Cool, shame there are not more pictures.

 

[baywax]

Cool, shame there are not more pictures.

Wait for the tourist attraction to get established!

What would be good to find out is if the underground find pre-dates the above ground structures or visa versa. That could prove to be a difficult undertaking.

 

[baywax]

I'm not sure if this is the same function as the type of underground "facilities" I've linked to here but "chultuns" have been found in the past and they are said to be underground storage units for the Mayans.

Here's a link to some photos of those types of underground utilities.http://archaeology.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=archaeology&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.islc.net%2F%7Elesleyl%2Fchultun.html

There is, as they mention on this site, a dilemma in archaeology these days. Many sites are still being used today and so the historical and pre-historical value is diminished by present day activity and requirements. When I first got into archaeology the "aboriginals" or "first nations" or "natives" were simply called indians. This was a throw back from Columbus or another exploiter...er.. explorer... thinking they'd found the passage to India.

By the time I was supervising excavations and surveys we were handing the responsibility of uncovering the histories and pre-histories of the first nations back to the first nations. Today there is a higher percentage of First Nation people running museums and even excavating. In the Haida Nation of Haida Guaii... or what we called the Queen Charolotte Islands, there are "watchmen" at every significant site where the Haida had very populous and vibrant villages.edit... if you want to tour these sites, and they are incredible even in the state they're in... you are always under the watchful eye of a Haida nation dude who lives on site in a portable that's been fashioned to look like a miniature longhouse.

Where many do not want to continue talking with me is when I remind them that the Haida often conquered other nations, taking the women back to Haida Gauii and killing all of the men on the spot. When the first nations ask for reparation for the abuse in Residential Schools, churches, and white man's transgressions... I think its good to air these things out... but I also think the Salish, Stolo and other nations could use the same dialog with the Haida and perhaps they'd all learn some better negotiating skills and have a better alliance for future economic/community endeavors.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

neat! I did the seattle underground tour... I bet this would be even better!

 

[marcus]

By the time I was supervising excavations and surveys we were handing the responsibility of uncovering the histories and pre-histories of the first nations back to the first nations. Today there is a higher percentage of First Nation people running museums and even excavating. In the Haida Nation of Haida Guaii... or what we called the Queen Charolotte Islands, there are "watchmen" at every significant site where the Haida had very populous and vibrant villages.edit... if you want to tour these sites, and they are incredible even in the state they're in... you are always under the watchful eye of a Haida nation dude who lives on site in a portable that's been fashioned to look like a miniature longhouse.

Where many do not want to continue talking with me is when I remind them that the Haida often conquered other nations, taking the women back to Haida Gauii and killing all of the men on the spot. When the first nations ask for reparation for the abuse in Residential Schools, churches, and white man's transgressions... I think its good to air these things out... but I also think the Salish, Stolo and other nations could use the same dialog with the Haida and perhaps they'd all learn some better negotiating skills and have a better alliance for future economic/community endeavors.

fascinating stuff to hear about!
I assume Haida means the people, and Gauii means Island (it sounds like Hawaii to me but I don't assume there could be any linguistic connection)

I have seen the phrase Xhaaidlagha Gwaayaai ---- I assume that Gwaayaai is the same word as Gauii, perhaps with a different transcription or case inflection, and then Xhaaidlagha would be "the edge of the world"----an agglutinative word where one part, e.g. Xhaai, might mean world and the other part, e.g. lagha, might mean edge (or vice versa).

So you are giving us a glimpse of Canadian----or British Columbia----negotiations and policy regarding pre-European people and archeology. These are extremely delicate and complex issues. In the USA many mistakes have been made in how to handle this business (not to speak of broad social issues, I only mean the archeology part) A friend of ours is an archeologist whose professional career has been largely involved in navigating the site preservation process entailed whenever they build a new freeway or shopping mall in Arizona or Nevada. For a while he was at digs in Scotland and other UK areas and I imagine they have their own bluepainted aboriginals to cope with but maybe it is not so complicated. We are all obsessed with our ancestral past whether we realize it or not.

So that is all really fascinating about what you do in the Queen Charlottes. I wish you success and would very much like to hear more.

 

[baywax]

fascinating stuff to hear about!
I assume Haida means the people, and Gauii means Island (it sounds like Hawaii to me but I don't assume there could be any linguistic connection)

Actually there is an unconfirmed linguistic connection and a confirmed genetic connection. Many of the Haida are, well, you know, really big. Like huge... just like many of the Hawaiians. And as you can see in the names and useage of the "ii", the linguistics hold a striking bit of evidence of a connection.

Here's a bit of (pre)-history surrounding the area...

15,000 B.C.

Some believe the Haida Gwaii (Queen Charlotte Islands) was first occupied about this time and they called them Xhaaidlagha Gwaayaai which means Islands at the Boundary of the World. The Islands are 90 km from the mainland and can be seen on a clear day. Their arrival therefore had to be via boats. The Haida would later name the 150 plus Islands as Haida Gwaii meaning the Islands of the People. Others called it the Haida Place. It is believed the Haida arrived 8,000 to 13,000 B.C. The ocean levels on the Islands fluctuated by up to 50 feet and did not stabilize until 3,000 B.C. making it difficult to find archeological evidence. It is noteworthy that Haida Gwaii was ice free during the ice age as were many of the islands of southern Alaska. Other coastal areas were ice free 12,000 to 11,000 B.C. maybe earlier. The low water levels produced great grass lands to support mammoth, mastodon and bison that were found on Haida Geaii and Quadra's Island (Vancouver Island).

A mammoth humerus from southern Vancouver Island has been dated to 17,000 YBP,

A bison find on Vancouver Island suggests human hunters killed bison on the Island peninsula Royal Oak, Victoria.

13,300 B.C.

Some contend this is the first Giant Flood of Montana, Idaho, Washington and Oregon when Glacial Lake Missoula ice dam broke sending 500 cubic miles of water to the Pacific in 48 hours. Others contend these have been going on since 80,000 B.C. The devastation however was profound, as this is more water than Lake Erie and Ontario combined. In some places there was a 1/2 mile high wall of water destroying the people and artifacts down the Columbia River. J. Harlen Brentz (1882-1981) first proposed the Giant Flood theory in 1922 to explain the geological evidence but was laughed at by the Geological Society.

12,000 B.C.

The Fluted Clovis point spearhead used to hunt mammoths appears all over North America. Clovis man has been found in the Peace River, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, Washington, and Mexico. This unprecedented form of stone point has the conservatives puzzled, as it requires a very rapid spreading to fit their hypothesis. Conservatives suggest the Clovis Point likely only dates to 11,500 B.C. Another problem with this technology is that few Clovis points are discovered in Alaska and no Clovis points in Siberia except those dated 6,300 B.C. at Uptar which suggests an American to Asia migration. All evidence supports a south to north migration of this technology. The Clovis technology may have migrated from America to Asia. Many conservative scientists resort to science fiction type theories to explain these and other anomalies.

Segments of the Coast Salish people-the ancestors of the Squamish, Burrard, Tsleil-Waututh, Musqueam (Xw'muthk'i'um), Tsawwassen, Coquitlam (Kwayhquitlam), Katzie and Semiahmoo Indian bands-arrive English Bay. They seem to be quite satisfied with the beaches teeming with seafood-they named English Bay Ayyulshun, which means 'soft under feet'. And they liked the forests teaming with wildlife. Not to mention that nearby is the mouth of a big river (Fraser River) emptying into a vast ocean where big, fat, silvery salmon swam by six months out of every year.

Mount St. Helens erupted leaving a time line of pre and post giant floods of Glacial Lake Missoula that left extensive marks in Montana, Idaho, Washington and Oregon. It is believed that 12 giant floods actually occurred some say between 13,300 B.C. to 9,700 B.C. while others contend they occurred 80,000 B.C. to 10,000 B.C.

11,500 B.C.

Some believe the Proto-Polynesians are living Haida Gwaii and are called the Old Haida. Speculation is they arrived on the Kuroshio Current from Asia.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dgarneau/B.C.1.htm

And here's the DNA evidence as Wikipedia has it:

Recent DNA analysis suggests that Polynesians, including Tongans, Samoans, Niueans, Cook Islanders, Tahitians, Hawaiians, Marquesans and Māori, exhibit a maternal mitochondrial DNA link to indigenous peoples of the New Guinea Highlands 40,000 years ago (Bryan Sykes - Seven Daughters of Eve, page 133). The paternal Y chromosome also comes from "New Guinea 11,500 years ago - but since that time have evolved quite separately from Melanesians" (see "Melanesian Origin of Polynesian Y Chromosomes" and "Melanesian Origin of Polynesian Y Chromosomes (correction)" cited in References). After this period, proto-Polynesian genes exhibit a 9based pair mtDNA deletion common to East Asians, showing a separation from Taiwanese aborigines 6,000 years ago. (See "Melanesian origins of Polynesian Y chromosome") Polynesian population expansion began in isolation in the Pacific 2,000 years ago (see also Melanesian origin of Y chromosomes). One particular DNA haplotype - the human lymphocyte antigen (HLA) Bw48 is commonly found in Polynesian populations, but occurs only sporadically in Melanesia. The only other known population with an appreciable frequency of HLA-Bw48 is that of the North American Indians or more specifically the Tlingit of Alaska. (Susan Serjeantson - Out of Asia - Peopling the Americas and the Pacific Edited by Robert Kirk and Emoke Szathmary 1985). In Polynesia Bw48 co-occurs with A11, - suggesting a variation since Polynesians departed from the people of the Alaskan/Canadian coast. This DNA evidence is supported by cultural and archaeological evidence showing a definite link between Eastern Polynesia and the Tlingit, Kwakuitl and Haida of the islands off Alaska and Canada[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia

The language of the Haida is endangered and an "isolate" language but just looking at the people and hearing the language makes you think of the distant shores of Hawaii.

Here's a link to Wikipedia's take on the language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haida_languageGreg Bernhardt, yeah the Seattle underground city is fascinating. Vancouver has a similar feature. I guess that's one reason why Vanc. and Seattle are sister cities... another is that we share the rain and volcanic ash + Earth quakes!

 

[wolram]

How can trading be ruled out, i mean it only needs one small group to manufacture, they could trade, then others copy, i guess an essential and successful tool would be to them as electricity is to us.
Edit.
In other words the people were all ready there and the tool spread to them.

The Fluted Clovis point spearhead used to hunt mammoths appears all over North America. Clovis man has been found in the Peace River, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, Washington, and Mexico. This unprecedented form of stone point has the conservatives puzzled, as it requires a very rapid spreading to fit their hypothesis. Conservatives suggest the Clovis Point likely only dates to 11,500 B.C. Another problem with this technology is that few Clovis points are discovered in Alaska and no Clovis points in Siberia except those dated 6,300 B.C. at Uptar which suggests an American to Asia migration. All evidence supports a south to north migration of this technology. The Clovis technology may have migrated from America to Asia. Many conservative scientists resort to science fiction type theories to explain these and other anomalies.

 

[marcus]

I didn't realize there was any evidence of a Polynesia-British Columbia connection. That is some of the most interesting stuff I have heard on PF for many a moon. Quite remarkable!

I don't know much about linguistics. don't know when the Hawaiian Islands are supposed to have been settled. Dont know how fast languages change.

Can't guess when the last contact would have been, if there ever was contact, between Hawaii and the BC islands.

Or maybe some words passed along by way of Tlingit? It all seems very tenuous.

The way I picture it either
1. it is purely accidental that Guaii sounds like Hawaii, and that the Haida are big people (I imagine them like Tongans, good football linesmen)

2. it isn't accidental and there was some recent contact that nobody knows about and the words are actually from the same root! which sounds almost crazy

3. there was some kinship but the common ancestor was over 10,000 years ago and maybe involved Tlingits and the Bering Trek, and in that case it is all so remote I would think that language would have changed beyond all recognition and the two words could not be traced to a common root. But there could still be some traces of linguistic and genetic similarity.

It is confused and only faintly suggestive, but absolutely fascinating!

 

[baywax]

How can trading be ruled out, i mean it only needs one small group to manufacture, they could trade, then others copy, i guess an essential and successful tool would be to them as electricity is to us.

The Fluted Clovis point spearhead used to hunt mammoths appears all over North America. Clovis man has been found in the Peace River, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, Washington, and Mexico. This unprecedented form of stone point has the conservatives puzzled, as it requires a very rapid spreading to fit their hypothesis. Conservatives suggest the Clovis Point likely only dates to 11,500 B.C. Another problem with this technology is that few Clovis points are discovered in Alaska and no Clovis points in Siberia except those dated 6,300 B.C. at Uptar which suggests an American to Asia migration. All evidence supports a south to north migration of this technology. The Clovis technology may have migrated from America to Asia. Many conservative scientists resort to science fiction type theories to explain these and other anomalies.

The main theory concerning the Clovis is that it "migrated" from Northern France at around 17,000. The "migration" is said to have taken place when a hunting party (which included women, men and children) was out on an ice shelf after some seal and it broke off the mainland and headed for North America. This is probably the Sci Fi you're talking about.

Bradley and Stanford argue that at the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, ca 25,000-15,000 radiocarbon years ago, the Iberian peninsula of Europe became a steppe-tundra, forcing Solutrean populations to the coasts. Maritime hunters then traveled northward along the ice margin up the European coast and around the North Atlantic Sea. They point out that the perennial Arctic ice at the time would have formed an ice bridge connecting Europe and North America. Ice margins have intense biological productivity, and would have provided a major food source.

Cultural Similarities

Bradley and Stanford further point out that there are similarities in the stone tools. Bifaces are systematically thinned with an overshot flaking method in both Solutrean and Clovis cultures. Solutrean leaf-shaped points are similar in outline and some (but not all) Clovis construction techniques. Further, Clovis assemblages often include a cylindrical ivory shaft or point made from mammoth tusk or long bones of bison. Other bone tools were often included in both assemblages, such as needles and bone shaft straighteners.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/skthroughsp/qt/solutrean_clovi.htm

But, then the problems with this theory are:

Problems with Solutrean/Clovis

The most prominent opponent of the Solutrean connection is Lawrence Guy Straus. Straus points out that the LGM forced people out of western Europe into southern France and the Iberian peninsula by about 25,000 radiocarbon years ago. There were no people at all living north of the Loire Valley of France during the Last Glacial Maximum, and no people in the southern part of England until after about 12,500 BP. The similarities between Clovis and Solutrean cultural assemblages are far outweighed by the differences. Clovis hunters were not users of marine resources, fish or mammal. Finally, the Solutrean hunter-gatherers used land-based hunting supplemented by littoral and riverine but not oceanic resources.

Most essentially, the Solutreans of the Iberian peninsula lived 5,000 radiocarbon years earlier and 5,000 kilometers directly across the Atlantic from the Clovis hunter-gatherers.

PreClovis and Solutrean

Since the discovery of credible Preclovis sites, Bradley and Stanford now argue for a Solutrean origin of Preclovis culture. The diet of Preclovis is definitely more maritime-oriented, and the dates are closer in time to Solutrean. However, the stone technology is not the same as Clovis, and the discovery of an ivory rhinoceros horn tool at the Yana RHS site in Western Beringia has somewhat lessened the strength of the technology argument.

(same link)

If you look at South America and North America you can see that there are many points of entry to the two, conjoined continents. This leads me to believe there were many cultures embarking upon exploring the vast areas of these lands. And you can see the various genetic and cultural diversities even as early as the periods we're talking about. One find in the Yukon Territories, the "Blue Fish Caves" shows human habitation at 26,000 years ago. There are always going to be anomalies like this that throw everyone's "theories" off.

There is the Northwest Passage that travels down the Rockies from Manning Park in BC. You can get to Mexico along that route and many "Native" stories from the interior and the coast speak of the travels to Mexico and beyond. One nation... the "Laxgalts'ap" and others have a direct genetic link with the native tribes in Mexico. The Laxgalts'ap traded their Obsidian... which was of fine quality... with them and many others around America and Central America.

You're right to say that trade was a great "ice breaker" for different regions and we have to be able to distinguish between the original cultures works and those that have been traded.

For instance, how mummies in Egypt test positive for cocaine and nicotine? The obvious answer... trade...

Balabanova's "Cocaine mummies"

Some have advocated that Ancient Egyptians may have traveled to the New World. Evidence for such claims involves the mystery of the "Cocaine mummies", mummies reported to have contained coca and nicotine.[5] The initial discovery was made by a German toxicologist by the name of Dr. Svetla Balabanova, after examining the mummy of a female priestess called Henut Taui. She states:
The first positive results, of course, were a shock for me. I had not expected to find nicotine and cocaine but that's what happened. I was absolutely sure it must be a mistake.
Follow up tests by way of the hair shaft - performed to rule out contamination - offered the same results. The significance of these finds lie with the fact that both coca and tobacco plants are indigenous to the Americas and thought not to have reached Africa until after the voyage of Christopher Colombus, in 1492.[6][7] Subsequent examination of numerous Sudanese mummies undertaken by Balabanova, mirrored what was found in the mummy of Henut Taui.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_Africa-Americas_contact_theories

 

[baywax]

I didn't realize there was any evidence of a Polynesia-British Columbia connection. That is some of the most interesting stuff I have heard on PF for many a moon. Quite remarkable!

I don't know much about linguistics. don't know when the Hawaiian Islands are supposed to have been settled. Dont know how fast languages change.

Can't guess when the last contact would have been, if there ever was contact, between Hawaii and the BC islands.

Or maybe some words passed along by way of Tlingit? It all seems very tenuous.

The way I picture it either
1. it is purely accidental that Guaii sounds like Hawaii, and that the Haida are big people (I imagine them like Tongans, good football linesmen)

2. it isn't accidental and there was some recent contact that nobody knows about and the words are actually from the same root! which sounds almost crazy

3. there was some kinship but the common ancestor was over 10,000 years ago and maybe involved Tlingits and the Bering Trek, and in that case it is all so remote I would think that language would have changed beyond all recognition and the two words could not be traced to a common root. But there could still be some traces of linguistic and genetic similarity.

It is confused and only faintly suggestive, but absolutely fascinating!

Yeah, it is nutzo!

The more I learn the less I know about it. I have to dig up some of the stories from the Similkameen peoples in the interior... they talk about meeting the people on the southern tip of South America... by a method of "walking fast".

But, I neglect my work so... cheers for now!

 

[baywax]

Here's what I could find for pictures of the "Mayan Underworld".

http://imagesoftheworld.org/mexico/cenote-cancun-mx.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1421/1252904955_27eef260d0.jpg?v=0

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/11898621.html

http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/articleslideshow?articleId=USN1442474520080815&channelName=scienceNews#a=2

Interesting video about the rituals and some shots of the underground temples

http://www.atitlan.net/video/mayan-religion.htm

What appears to be new footage of the entrance and innards of the caves with shots of cave wall carving...

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=89132&newsChannel=scienceNews

 

[marcus]

...
Interesting video about the rituals and some shots of the underground temples

http://www.atitlan.net/video/mayan-religion.htm

...

I focused on this one. I especially like the story of the two brothers whose ballplaying angered the gods----and then there is this kind of Osiris myth that causes the Hero Twins to be born, and they play a trick on the gods. It is a good story.

Someone who I think is named George Stewart tells it. I wonder what his reputation is, among anthropologists. He is in North Carolina, does that mean Chapel Hill UNC? Or is he freelance?

 

[wolram]

Thank you Baywax.

 

[baywax]

I'm so wrong about the name of the trail from Manning park, east of Hope, BC to Mexico.
Its called the Pacific Crest Trail... and here's one link of many to a description of it.

Meandering from Mexico to Canada for 2,650 miles, the PCT traverses three states, three national monuments, seven national parks, 25 national forests, and 33 federally mandated wildernesses. Along the way it ascends more than 57 major mountain passes and skirts the shores of countless lakes, tarns, ponds, creeks, and rivers. Scurrying, slithering, foraging, and hunting in the trail’s environments are a wealth of extraordinary creatures – many of which PCT walkers are privileged to glimpse — including rattlesnakes, coyotes, mountain lions, marmots, bears, mountain goats, and elk.

http://www.walkaboutmag.com/20footpaths.html

You can see why it was a viable trade route for over 7000 years... if not 15,000... with all the game a healthy trade/explorer could eat. I have very little doubt that the Maya sent out ambassadors along this route (pronounced "root" here!) and shared understanding and gifts with the people of the Pacific Northwest.

 

[Evo]

Baywax, I've been menaing to tell you those are great links.

I too loved the story of the two brothers. I'd never heard that tale.

 

[baywax]

Baywax, I've been menaing to tell you those are great links.

I too loved the story of the two brothers. I'd never heard that tale.

Oh yeah, that is a good little synopsis of the significance of the caves.

I visited a remote cave dwelling in the Similkameen Nation, the interior of BC. I have photos of the pictographs and the thousands of summer's worth of soot on its ceiling. I'll get them up here as soon as I find and scan them... with commentary.

The coolest thing about these ones is that its a mix of the northern interior and the southern interior people's stories on the walls. The people in Montana and south of there would come up to the Similkameen territory, across today's boarder, to fish and hunt for the summer. I attempted to live that life while I was there, but you have to be very well trained at flint-knapping, spear fishing (illegal) and basically wrestling bears, cougars and wolverines.

PS. Thanks Evo and Wolram!

 

[marcus]

BTW is baywax a familiar substance, like are bay-berries waxy and so people could cook the wax out of some leaves/berries and use it to make leather shiny or something/

you make anthropology look like a good life

I will tell you something about anthro that resonates with me and that is when a group of CavalliSforza protege (I think) researchers took some DNA samples from a village in northern Iran and established that descendents of ALEXANDER'S SOLDIERS were living there.

And it is the same experience as when you talk about links between Hawaii and Queen Charlotte.

what thrills me is when linguistic or artifact or DNA evidence comes out that tells of great treks and voyages.
And I can tell you what part of my brain reacts to that. It is where I have a certain question about ourselves. Does our civilization have the balls to propagate Earth life to another earthlike planet?
They did, I think to myself, now what about us? that is where the (admittedly irrational, emotional) resonance comes from. It helps to make anthro interesting to me as outsider.

 

[baywax]

BTW is baywax a familiar substance, like are bay-berries waxy and so people could cook the wax out of some leaves/berries and use it to make leather shiny or something/

you make anthropology look like a good life

I will tell you something about anthro that resonates with me and that is when a group of CavalliSforza protege (I think) researchers took some DNA samples from a village in northern Iran and established that descendents of ALEXANDER'S SOLDIERS were living there.

And it is the same experience as when you talk about links between Hawaii and Queen Charlotte.

what thrills me is when linguistic or artifact or DNA evidence comes out that tells of great treks and voyages.
And I can tell you what part of my brain reacts to that. It is where I have a certain question about ourselves. Does our civilization have the balls to propagate Earth life to another earthlike planet?
They did, I think to myself, now what about us? that is where the (admittedly irrational, emotional) resonance comes from. It helps to make anthro interesting to me as outsider.

You have really nailed it with regard to how Archaeology and Anthropology has had me tolerating the devil's club and moose flies for 12 years. This started for me as a founding member of the Archaeological Society at 12 years old.

My handle on here is a combo of surfing experiences. Wax on the board, off to the bay! But it is also the name of the browser I've linked myself to.

The Trek is one of the most exhilarating aspects of this study. However, at the start, for myself it was the artifacts themselves. Partially a kid's fascination with the tools and toys of a lost civilization. There is a universe of information in each of them and that was my initial attraction to the whole "forensic" aspect of the study.

As soon as it dawned on me, while listening to the stories from the Grandmothers, Chiefs and nation members, that there had been expedition parties as far south as Argentina and back up the Peruvian coastline to home... I was as astonished and motivated as you.

You wonder if it takes balls to want to trek into the unknown but it only takes genetics because treking is a trait that exhibits the survival instinct of our species. Its always a small percentage of the population exploring the outer reaches, but "spreading out" always ensures someone will survive from the main population.

Remember the 5000 year old Scandinavian Ice Mummy found in Mongolia? Before his death this guy made it to the middle of one of the world's largest, most remote deserts in his cariboo skin clothes with his cariboo jerky and bag of marijuana. He was so venerated by the locals they buried him like one of their own.

That was an approximately 7000 mile trek he made, on foot, allegedly with about 2 other people. Well, they may have ridden cariboos. But, that's the lengths we go to. Its natural. And, at least on earth, we are often pleasantly surprised by what we find when we go the distance. The Similkameen people found "people with the strangest customs and music" when they reached the Yucatan Peninsula (described in their oral (pre)history). They describe Central America as the "place where the land narrows". All this blew my mind and artifacts started taking a back seat to the romance and grandeur of the "trek" as you put it.

 

[Evo]

One of my friends is an archaeologist and he's on a dig right now that has turned up some substantial paleolithic finds. I'd like to get him to post here when he has the time.

He's about to release his second book.

 

[baywax]

One of my friends is an archaeologist and he's on a dig right now that has turned up some substantial paleolithic finds. I'd like to get him to post here when he has the time.

He's about to release his second book.

That would be excellent!

The mummy I mentioned was the wrong one... the correct description is of a 2500 year old and a blonde Iranian... this report from June, 2006

LONDON, (CAIS) -- An international group of archaeologists has unearthed a well-preserved, 2,500-year-old mummy frozen in the snowcapped mountains of what is today known as Mongolia complete with hair, tattoos and a felt hat.
The president of the German Archaeological Institute, Hermann Parzinger, hailed the "fabulous find" at a press conference to present the 28-member team's discovery in Berlin.

The Scythian warrior was found in June at a height of 2,600 meters (8,500 feet) in the Altay Mountains in an intact burial mound or kurgan.

for more... http://www.cais-soas.com/news/2006/August2006/26-08-archaeologists.htm

 

[baywax]

I just want to question the dating of the Mayan complexes, especially the pyramids, and that's why I wonder if there will be a date put on the underground "temples" and roads etc...

Its very hard to date stone. You can only do so by finding some once-living carbon in an associated proximity to the stonework. This is a faulty dating procedure since the date of the carbon can represent an incident where cooking or a fire took place directly beside the ruins, not necessarily dating the ruins themselves. The only viable sample that would help to date the stonework would be carbon found beneath one of the stones or carbon or grass in the mortar of the stonework.

To my knowledge the Mayan ruins, including the "lighthouse/observatory" on the Yucatan coast have only been dated via circumstantial means, ie: by the association of proximal evidence.

This is an idea that would not sit well with indigenous archaeologists. That's because, if it turned out that the Maya "moved into" an existing complex of neolithic or paleolithic structures, this would rob them of the distinction of having developed such a grand civilization with its astronomy and so on.

Here's the "Mayan observatory":

http://web.mit.edu/mcguire/www/mexico_files/image018.jpg

El Caracol is thought to be a Maya lighthouse built between 1200 and 1400 A.D. that also served as a hurricane warning system. Strategically placed openings whistle when the wind blows and the Maya were able to tell what type of weather was approaching. The stronger the wind, the higher the pitch. Candles placed inside turned the structure into a lighthouse guiding pilgrims and traders safely to shore. The ruins are now part of the Parque Punta Sur nature reserve.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgu...rev=/images?q=maya+lighthouse&um=1&hl=en&sa=G

Where do they get their dates?

Also, what ships required a lighthouse in those pre-columbian days?

 

[marcus]

This is an idea that would not sit well with indigenous archaeologists. That's because, if it turned out that the Maya "moved into" an existing complex of neolithic or paleolithic structures, this would rob them of the distinction of having developed such a grand civilization with astronomy and so on.

Pride of heritage is one of the stubbornist deeprooted types of nationalism, isn't it?
But aside for tempting people to unscientifically distort evidence it seems comparatively harmless. To me at least.

Your link about the 2500 year old Scythian buried with his felt hat on is in the website of the Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies and they are promoting a collective term where the Scythian nomads of the central asian steppes are lumped with Persians, Medes...the old Empire guys from south of the Caucasus.
And calling it by a name evocative of a contemporary country. Yikes, visions of Greater Irania!
===========

on a lighter note, do you remember in Herodotus how frustrated Cyrus was by the Scythians. it was a humorous situation. the Scythian spokesmen were always very calm and faintly disrespectful----explaining to Cyrus how it didn't make any sense for him to try to conquer them because by the time he got set up for battle they would always be hundreds of miles away. The greek techies thought it was stupid to invade Scythia but they were getting paid. When Cyrus didn't show on time, they were sorely tempted to dismantle the pontoon bridge and go home, leaving him stranded on the steppes without retreat. Or that's how I remember it.

Of course that Scythian had to be buried with his two horses. There's many an American who would be buried with his Pontiac Firebird if it was allowed.

 

[Andre]

I just want to question the dating of the Mayan complexes, especially the pyramids, and that's why I wonder if there will be a date put on the underground "temples" and roads etc...

Its very hard to date stone.

perhaps not baywax,

See http://www.gnest.org/Journal/Vol2_No1/Liritzis_part_I.pdf showing when objects became exposed to heat or light

Variation on the same idea, exposure are http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006JB004350.shtml whenever there is quartz in the stone.

 

[baywax]

Pride of heritage is one of the stubbornist deeprooted types of nationalism, isn't it?
But aside for tempting people to unscientifically distort evidence it seems comparatively harmless. To me at least.

I figure the truth is more important that anything else. When something is based on untruths, it generally falls apart... such as the false truth about how the dykes in New Orleans could easily withstand Katrina. Those misrepresentations were a form of regionalism and a contractor's over-confidence. This sort of "gloss-over" attitude leads to some pretty harmful instances.

 

[baywax]

perhaps not baywax,

See http://www.gnest.org/Journal/Vol2_No1/Liritzis_part_I.pdf showing when objects became exposed to heat or light

Variation on the same idea, exposure are http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006JB004350.shtml whenever there is quartz in the stone.

Yes, I've seen you mention these before Andre. Both relatively new advances... from 2000 and 2006.

If the locals and firmly ensconced "pros" would let this type of technology prove itself, that would put my concerns to rest...

There must be some rigorous, sort of "clinical trials" to put the thermoluminescence and the 10Be and 36CI datings to the test before a body of Archaeologists will allow the evidence as "truth".

That is exciting and the implications are huge.

I still think any ruins found off any continental coast are correctly dated by the depth below sea level and their geographical situation. Its the above ground stuff we need these advances for, to date them.

 

[Andre]

Yes we would know the dating of the sfinx and the great pyramid in no time that way

Also, how would you date the lost Cuban 'city'?

 

[baywax]

Yes we would know the dating of the sfinx and the great pyramid in no time that way

Also, how would you date the lost Cuban 'city'?

We have discussed this site and I think there was some speculation it had fallen deeper into the ocean because of a fault or plate subduction. That would explain the dismantling of some of its features. I've seen CAD models of the city and terrane based on the radar/sonar records and its quite something. (But I can't find my link to these for now)
Andre, you seem to automatically associate the depth underwater of the megaliths with a period of earthquakes and subsidence around 12,000 years. But, it is also just as likely that, if they are man-made, they were built around 15-12,000 BP... then submerged because of the LGM meltdown then were subjected to seismic activity at a later date... taking them down to a half mile below sea level.

Here's one of you own links on the subject.

http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/exmar3i.htm

Here's another... very convincing...

http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/exmar6i.htm

Here's a satellite photo of the area... showing a "rut-line" like the ones in Malta
directing the eye to the "sunken city".

http://www.satellitediscoveries.com/discoveries/line_network/cuba.html

Here's more of those lines at the Mega site... from a satellite

http://www.nwidi.org/TheMegaBlog/photos/images_from_satellitediscoveriescom/images/19/500x351.aspx

http://www.nwidi.org/TheMegaBlog/photos/images_from_satellitediscoveriescom/images/14/500x310.aspx

http://www.nwidi.org/TheMegaBlog/photos/images_from_satellitediscoveriescom/images/13/491x375.aspx

http://www.nwidi.org/TheMegaBlog/photos/images_from_satellitediscoveriescom/images/14/500x310.aspx

http://photos1.hi5.com/0006/431/701/RFkDFV431701-02.jpg

And from National Geographic

Many scientists are skeptical of any theory that might tempt people to draw a parallel with the fabled lost city of Atlantis. Geologist Manuel Iturralde, however, has stressed the need for an open mind while investigations of the site continue.

"These are extremely peculiar structures, and they have captured our imagination," said Iturralde, who is director of research at Cuba's Natural History Museum. Iturralde has studied countless underwater formations over the years, but said, "If I had to explain this geologically, I would have a hard time."

In his report on the formations, Iturralde noted that conclusive proof of man-made structures on the site could reinforce some oral traditions of the Maya and native Yucatecos. These people still retell ancient stories of an island inhabited by their ancestors that vanished beneath the waves.

Iturralde makes it clear, however, that just because no natural explanation is immediately apparent, it doesn't rule one out. "Nature is able to create some really unimaginable structures," he said.

Further research is scheduled to take place over the summer. Data thus far has been collected using sonar scans and video. The structures are buried under 1,900 to 2,500 feet (600 to 750 meters) of water.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/05/0528_020528_sunkencities.html

 

[Andre]

Indeed there are many speculations possible, the only thing that seems reasonably certain is that whatever caused is, there is no known precedence and some branch of paleo- geologic science may have to start again from scratch. My take/guess is that it would be geophysics, the Earth doing stranger things than we ever thought it would. But to get any further, we need unambigeous confirmation that these structures (basalt) are not made of local bedrock (limestone) and have some datings on the construction (be it TL/OL, 10Be, 26Al, 36Cl). I'm still flabbergasted that no-one seems to be interested to pick up such a project, where the original discoverers had to knock it off.

 

[Andre]

Cancel that dating idea, as exposure dating techniques relate to exposure to atmosphere, light and cosmic rays. Obviously that doesn't work.

However there was a barnacle found between the remains, which lead to the only scientific publication about the Mega site:

First Record of the Barnacle Crustacean Genus Newmaniverruca.

abstract

A dead specimen of the marine barnacle crustacean Newmaniverruca sp. is for the first time recorded from bathial water offshore Cuba. The empty capitulum of this distorted crustacean was attached to a rock pebble recoveredf rom the sea bottom, WNW of the Guanahacabibes peninsula of Cuba. A figure of its capitulum, as well as an innerview of its fixed scutum, are also given.

Obviously this is a shallow water species and the authors could not explain how it got there at that depth of 600-700 meters. Now there is a sample to carbon date. Should not be surprized if that would be a five digit figure. Could that barnacle have lived there under normal conditions when the site made it's way to its current depth?

But then again, could somebody have thrown it in the water?

 

[baywax]

Cancel that dating idea, as exposure dating techniques relate to exposure to atmosphere, light and cosmic rays. Obviously that doesn't work.

However there was a barnacle found between the remains, which lead to the only scientific publication about the Mega site:

First Record of the Barnacle Crustacean Genus Newmaniverruca.



Obviously this is a shallow water species and the authors could not explain how it got there at that depth of 600-700 meters. Now there is a sample to carbon date. Should not be surprized if that would be a five digit figure. Could that barnacle have lived there under normal conditions when the site made it's way to its current depth?

But then again, could somebody have thrown it in the water?

This is a good development regardless. It means there is some study being done on the site.

When I ask if the monuments like the Mayan "lighthouse", "hurricane warning system" could have been established before the Mayan nation got there... it is a bit juvenile and too simple a speculation to answer.

This is because the Maya really could have experienced the ups and downs like any civilization experiences. Take Rome for example. They enjoyed centuries of splendor and achievement then fell into disuse... then rose again as Italy with the renaissance and all sorts of progress.

The same thing could have happened with the Maya. The remains of their ancestors could well be laying on the sea bottom, across the Yucatan straight, by Cuba. These are exciting times!

 

[Andre]

Afraid not, ther phrase is "has been done". It was published in 2004

 

[baywax]

Afraid not, ther phrase is "has been done". It was published in 2004

OK then... let's just say we know there's something quite interesting to study at the Mega site. Let's gather up some of our billionaire friends and convince them we need some sea worthy mini-subs for an expedition. We could mention the duo purpose of oil exploration to grease the wheels a little. (Pun intended)

I meant to mention the fact that the Maya culture has found some sort of solace in the idea of honouring their ancestors under water... or, at least, symbolically entering the water to reach the underwater caves where they built shrines or temples to their ancestors. This could very well point to a ritual acknowledgment of the final resting place of a previous... possibly 12,000 - 15,000 year old... rendition of their civilization and thus, their highly achieved "anscestors".

You see similarities in how there are huge ritual traditions commemorating the "sinking" of Krishna's fabled city, in the bay of Cambai off western India. Today the ruins of a 2 by 5 mile city boundary have been documented to be resting in 120 feet of sea water there. Carbon dating of grass in some of the bricks put its age at around 10,000 ybp.

 

[baywax]

My spelling was wrong about the Bay of Cambay...

Here's the Wikipedia version of events there... I'll link after the quotes...

On May 19, 2001, India's science and technology minister Murli Manohar Joshi announced the finding of ruins in the Gulf of Khambhat (formerly known as the Gulf of Cambay and more commonly spelled Khambhat). The ruins, known as the Gulf of Khambhat Cultural Complex (GKCC), are located on the seabed of a nine-kilometer stretch off the coast of Gujarat province at a depth of about 40 m. The site was discovered by a team from the National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) in December 2000 and investigated for six months with acoustic techniques. The team identified city-like structures at the location, said to resemble those of major cities of the Indus Valley Civilization, with regular geometric patterns representing a granary, a great bath and a citadel.

and more...

A round of further underwater explorations was made in the Gulf of Khambhat (Cambay) site by the NIOT team from 2003 to 2004, and the samples obtained of what was presumed to be pottery were sent to laboratories in Oxford, UK and Hanover, Germany, as well as several institutions within India, to be dated by Optically Stimulated Luminescence (OSL) and thermoluminescence dating techniques. These pieces returned dates ranging from 13000 ± 1950 BP up to the oldest at 31270 ± 2050 BP, leading to NIOT's chief geologist Badrinaryan Badrinaryan stating that they had uncovered the earliest-known pottery remains in the world, from about 31000 BP [2]. In his web publication of his findings, Badrinaryan (2006) stated:
“ Since some persons have expressed doubts about the pottery pieces, a thorough scientific study was made involving the pottery pieces to establish their authenticity. To determine the properties of various material including pottery, many samples were subjected to X-Ray Diffraction (XRD) analysis. Since the materials that constitute pottery etc are clays and heterogeneous mixtures of a variety of materials, these were accordingly analyzed. Every area has a special fingerprint pattern in the clay which can be recognized in X-Ray diffraction (XRD)...

(continues)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruins_in_the_Gulf_of_Cambay

And here you can read the intertwining of myth with history where Krishna's reign in India and the building of his temples and city (Old Dwaraka) are helped by and destroyed by the "sea gods".

I'm posting this example as a possible parallel to the Mayan myths and ritals observed to have taken place in their "underworld" temples.

Lord Krishna was born in Mathura (now in Uttar Pradesh state). He escaped from the evil clutches of his uncle Kamsa. He grew up in Brindavana. Krishna's elder brother, Balarama married Revati, the daughter of king Raivata who ruled the Kutch region in Gujarat state. Krishna wanted his clan - Yadavas to have peaceful days and shifted his entire kingdom from Mathura (which he had gained after slaying Kamsa) to Dwaraka on the western part of Gujarat. Krishna requested Vishwa Karma - the celestial architect to build a city for his clan. Vishwa Karma after surveying the area felt that more land was needed. Krishna then requested Samudra Deva (Sea God) to recede and give more space for Vishwa Karma's city building activity. The sea God agreed to do so with the condition that the land will be reclaimed back should Adharma increase among Yadavas. Lord Krishna stayed there along with 8 queens and ruled the area. Since He was the creator of Dwaraka city, Krishna was called as DWARAKADHEESH.
After Maha Bharata war which took place near the present Delhi area, Krishna returned to Dwaraka and continued to rule. After his passing away, the Yadavas fought among themselves and Adharma increased and the sea God caused a Tsunami and reclaimed the land he had given earlier.

http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/tours/2005/gujarat/dwaraka.htm

Present day Dwaraka is situated on the shores of the Bay of Khambhat (Cambay).

 

[baywax]

Here's the cave dwelling I was talking about.

The student is in the cave for scale. Notice the amount of soot on the ceiling.

The two figures are coyotes... son an father.

The wall of pictographs is in the cave.


There's more of the top of the canyon and the fishing/hunting area. And a bison or grizzly bear figure... you can help me decide which it is!