A model of what makes up the physical world

[Dale]

Given that it doesn't exist.

You can measure it. It seems weird to think that you can measure something that doesn’t exist. Certainly I wouldn’t claim that it is non existent and I think such a claim is hard to justify.

 

[pkc111]

It's a requirement that they fit together. They are not separate, one is a part of the other.

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Why is it a requirement of any 2 paradigms that they fit together?
Educational theory is full of separate theories/ paradigms...cognitive theories, behavioural, cognitive/behavioural theories and a whole myriad of others etc, but they don't combine into one. They do not fit together at all, they are different lenses to attempt to explain the same thing, but they don't always combine very nicely in rational minds...they are very different views whose value is that they are internally consistent, but come with no guarantee that they are going to join well with another theory... imo.
eg How can the idea that space and time as different entities (Newtonian paradigm) fit with an Einsteinian paradigm of them being part of the same thing? I can't see how one single model can say both of these things at the same time and be internally consistent ?

 

[pkc111]

Ok so this is the words my oxford dictionary of physics uses to describe some key physics terms and probably my reference for describing physics terms to 17 year old kids..

Space: a "property" of the universe...
Time: a "dimension"...
Force: an "agency"...
Energy: a "measure" of the ability...
Momentum: the "product of mass x velocity of a body"... I guess this is the same as saying " a measure of"
Matter: a "substance" that takes up space and has mass
Torque: the "product" of a force and a perpendicular distance .. I guess this is the same as saying " a measure of"

I trust the wording of these definitions are internally consistent with the accepted mainstream framework of physics concepts and will place some foundations of understanding for a smooth studying of physics at higher levels

And so the questions from students are obviously going to be things like:
how can a "measurement" transfer or absorb...my future answer...it just does...like money on balance sheets.
how do you travel through a "property" (ie space)...um...you just do
are any of these things real?...my future answer...ask your philosophy teacher.
do any of these things "exist"...my future answer...define exist...you can say matter does...some people say energy does some say it doesnt...ie go and ask your philosophy teacher what exist means and come back.
yes I know that p = mv but what is momentum really?...my future answer...no one knows the true nature of these things (see Feynman interviews)

Of course any suggestions on improvements to my responses are welcome!

 

[Dale]

You will be much better off using a standard physics textbook instead of the Oxford dictionary. Very often the technical definitions are different from the common English definitions. Once you have good definitions, then stick with them.

If you are teaching your physics class so that they ask questions about whether something exists or not then you are doing something wrong. Nobody ever asked that in any of my physics classes. We were too busy learning how to use the models and prepare for the exam to waste time like that.

 

[pkc111]

You will be much better off using a standard physics textbook instead of the Oxford dictionary. Very often the technical definitions are different from the common English definitions. Once you have good definitions, then stick with them.

If you are teaching your physics class so that they ask questions about whether something exists or not then you are doing something wrong. Nobody ever asked that in any of my physics classes. We were too busy learning how to use the models and prepare for the exam to waste time like that.

OK i don't know what sort of school you teach in but at our school we really try to foster a spirit of enquiry from kids in science, and the kids do. I don't have a problem at all with kids asking these questions...to me its a very healthy sign . The trick as I see it as a teacher is giving them a quick and satisfying answer (thats not incorrect) to allow them to happily get on with the real work I want them to ie problem solving.

 

[pkc111]

You will be much better off using a standard physics textbook instead of the Oxford dictionary. Very often the technical definitions are different from the common English definitions. Once you have good definitions, then stick with them.

If you are teaching your physics class so that they ask questions about whether something exists or not then you are doing something wrong. Nobody ever asked that in any of my physics classes. We were too busy learning how to use the models and prepare for the exam to waste time like that.

The dictionary I am using is the Oxford dictionary of Physics (latest edition), not a general dictionary.
Are you saying that a physics textbook would be a better supply of definitions than this? OK i will look for a first year uni one.

 

[Dale]

The dictionary I am using is the Oxford dictionary of Physics (latest edition)

Hmm, I am surprised that the definitions are so bad then.

OK i don't know what sort of school you teach in but at our school we really try to foster a spirit of enquiry from kids in science,

We had plenty of questions from the students, but just none of the philosophical sort you are describing. Not all questions are a good sign. Only good questions are a good sign.

I don't have a problem at all with kids asking these questions...to me its a very healthy sign .

The question “what is momentum really” is a bad sign, not a healthy one, IMO. It means that they don’t even understand that the purpose of a definition is to answer that question.

It also means that they are uncomfortable with the idea, that they believe that you are tricking them or lying to them. It indicates that they feel that you are not already telling them what it really is.

 

[pkc111]

Hmm, I am surprised that the definitions are so bad then.

The question “what is momentum really” is a bad sign, not a healthy one. It means that they don’t even understand that the purpose of a definition is to answer that question.

It also means that they are uncomfortable with the idea, that they believe that you are tricking them or lying to them. It indicates that they feel that you are not already telling them what it really is.

Ok well I am not sure what sort of enquiry you foster in your classroom and what sort of depth of thinking you allow from your students, but if you are happy to stifle it by labelling it as unhealthy then that's up to you I guess.
I think it is quite natural for kids and us all to seek meaning and deeper understanding and actually think I have a duty to encourage it, and I can see why p=mv would seek further questions about what is it really? The fact that you know there is know known answer beyond that makes it very easy to say they should be happy with the explanation they first get and not want a deeper explanation.

 

[pkc111]

Hmm, I am surprised that the definitions are so bad then.
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Well if you don't believe me you may wish to have a look yourself. and if you have some better words to start the definition of each then you may wish to share them? rather than just dissing...

 

[Mister T]

Why is it a requirement of any 2 paradigms that they fit together?

I was responding to this comment:

a simple classical physics view of the universe and a modern view of the universe separately...as they really are fundamentally different paradigms I now realize probably never meant to be put together.

Modern physics is the more general of the two, so it must match classical physics within the appropriate limits of validity. See the example I give below.

How can the idea that space and time as different entities (Newtonian paradigm) fit with an Einsteinian paradigm of them being part of the same thing?

When speeds are small enough and gravity weak enough both Newtonian and einsteinian physics provide matching results.

 

[sophiecentaur]

We had plenty of questions from the students, but just none of the philosophical sort you are describing. Not all questions are a good sign. Only good questions are a good sign.

Ok well I am not sure what sort of enquiry you foster in your classroom and what sort of depth of thinking you allow from your students, but if you are happy to stifle it by labelling it as unhealthy then that's up to you I guess.

A Straw Man argument, I'm afraid. The reason that teachers are paid to teach is to enable most of their students to get high enough grades to progress to the next stage of education. That's how Schools and their staff are assessed by Ofsted (or non-UK equivalents). If a teacher is prepared for lots of extra-curricular contact with an elite band of students (who are also prepared), the sort of thing @pkc111 is recommending could be very useful.
A fellow student of mine at University was totally in love with his Physics. He read around it constantly and produced good written assignments during the course. He was our go-to source for help with our assignments. However, he just didn't LEARN enough to do well in the Finals. He got a Third Class Hons., which shocked us all. There was no way he could get into a post grad course without spending / wasting a lot more time at first degree level. It was a shame that his tutors didn't spot the signs and get him targeted properly.
I don't agree with much of the content of subject specifications but I do notice that, beneath the flowery language about developing the Scientific Mind etc. etc. there's a basis of needing to know content.

 

[Vanadium 50]

@pkc111, do you mind telling us your physics background and how long you have been teaching?

 

[pkc111]

@pkc111, do you mind telling us your physics background and how long you have been teaching?

The thread is not about me. Probably best to stick to the topic Id say.

 

[weirdoguy]

Well, partly it is about you because YOU are trying to make some things up for students, that won't really help them.

 

[pkc111]

bit of a stretch of the relevance there I think

 

[DrClaude]

Thread closed for moderation.

Edit: after some brief discussion the mentors have decided to keep this thread closed. It had gotten a little heated.