Airplane 'Photo Op' Angers 9/11 Witnesses

[OAQfirst]

Just what I said: that it isn't trying to find the Empire State Building - that after a half hour it isn't in imminent danger of crashing into anything.

Ahem. Well, it's a good thing then that the average New Yorker isn't a relatively dumb person then because they apparently didn't reach that conclusion.

One plane flying around for half an hour or a thousand for 5 minutes apiece - whatever. Either way, these do not represent the type of thing that happened on 9/11.

Not that 9/11 set a standard for terrorist attack behaviors, right?

 

[russ_watters]

Ahem. Well, it's a good thing then that the average New Yorker isn't a relatively dumb person then because they apparently didn't reach that conclusion.

What conclusion did they reach?

Not that 9/11 set a standard for terrorist attack behaviors, right?

I'm not sure what you are suggesting - are you suggesting that a plane intent on flying into a building would first circle for half an hour before doing it?

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes.

Your answer is tantamount to reserving your opinion to play it out however it suits you.

That's just plain wrong. When I saw it on TV, my first thought was that the terrorists had read Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor", where a rogue foreign pilot flies a 747 into the Capital building.

Yah well, James Bond foiled an attempt to wipe out humans on Earth in Moonraker ,but most of us distinguish between fantastical fiction and real-life events.

[Il]Logic like this leads to people curled up in the fetal position under the stairs in their basements for days on end. It is an argument in favor of mental breakdown.

No, it's an argument in favour of no longer being complacent in our towers (ivory or otherwise) and in favour of ensuring we have a place to go when fighter jets chase airliners over the Manhattan skyline.


There's really no point in arguing this point much further. As I've said: anyone can judge after-the-fact from their armchair. Talk's cheap.

 

[Cyrus]

XZ6NaAgP_ik&feature=related[/youtub...rmine it was AF-1, and go about his buisness.

 

[OAQfirst]

What conclusion did they reach?

I'm not sure what you are suggesting - are you suggesting that a plane intent on flying into a building would first circle for half an hour before doing it?

*blinks*

Are you suggesting that the public reaction of fear and upset is... well... nonexistent? I mean, I watched a few videos of this flight and judging by the comments and the, "OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD!" coffee table chit chat in the background, I'd say they decided that it didn't quite look right.

They're not mind readers. All they know is something isn't right and they're not in a good position to spell out possibilities. Maybe there's a struggle in the cockpit and someone is trying to keep the plane in flight. Who can guess what is going on. But you just can not expect people to have no concerns about a low-flying plane in their city that sticks out like this. It was not an ordinary event. They know their sky well enough to see that, and they didn't know what was going on, as demonstrated by the calls to emergency services. They're not going to spend some time in thought on terrorist tactics or just why it hasn't taken the plunge yet; their minds were probably front and center on reaction. I know mine would be.

 

[rootX]

This is why I love the Israelis. They constantly get bombed and they don't panic half as much as we do.

Different environment.

I don't see any way to prove that Israelis panic less.

But, I agree that here people were irrational and they could have hurt themselves.

I'm talking about the people that were running in the streets. I'd like to know what exactly they thought they would accomplish by doing this. This is probably one of the worst things you can have, a large crowd of people who are not thinking straight running over people that fall and potentially killing them.

I see this similar to (Mecca) stampedes. I guess that can't be avoided (these irrational false panics).

 

[Cyrus]

Different environment.

I don't see any way to prove that Israelis panic less.

But, I agree that here people were irrational and they could have hurt themselves.



I see this similar to (Mecca) stampedes. I guess that can't be avoided (these irrational false panics).

What's a Mecca stampede? I never even heard about this until just now.

 

[turbo]

Cy, were people "running in the streets" as you claim, or did they exit their buildings and try to figure out what was going on? The former sounds radical and extreme. The latter sounds pretty smart to me. How many people were killed in the stampede?

 

[Cyrus]

Cy, were people "running in the streets" as you claim, or did they exit their buildings and try to figure out what was going on? The former sounds radical and extreme. The latter sounds pretty smart to me. How many people were killed in the stampede?

yKKrlboqD5w[/youtube] I never sa...ople on what that airplane is - jesus christ.

 

[chroot]

None of this discussion about clear, rational thought addresses a point I made previously. Imagine you're working at the Nymex, your head buried in your workstation, when someone yells down the hall There's a 747 flying really low, headed this way, and an F-16 chasing it -- RUN!.

Here's the simple fact: You would all run. You would be stupid not to. You don't have time to think about whether or not the guy who yelled knows a Cessna from a Boeing. You don't have time to think about what kinds of flight patterns might simply be photo ops. You don't have time to think about what kinds of markings might be on the plane, or what they mean about how easily it could be hijacked.

You run, because that guy might be right, you haven't yet gathered any of your own evidence, and cynicism could cost you your life.

Once you're outside and the adrenaline rush is over, you might be mentally acute enough to put together the story, see the plane doing lazy circles around the island, and relax. That didn't stop you from running along with all your coworkers, who prompted others to run, who prompted others to run.

In this situation, 1% of the people had all the information, and some of them were not smart enough to put it all together. They sparked a panic among the other 99% which had few facts, but knew well enough not to sit around and wait for a crash.

Panics spread like wildfire, with or without reference to facts -- and that should have been expected by the people who planned this flight. Those YouTube videos of mass pranks serve as evidence of just how self-reinforcing panics are.

- Warren

 

[rootX]

What's a Mecca stampede? I never even heard about this until just now.

(That's not one word)

It looks pretty scary place to me maybe because everyone wears same color and looks like hell lot of people. It would be pretty bad if someone shouts fire/bomb in these like places. And there have been many incidents where lots of people killed from stampedes (not all occurred at Mecca though).
Mecca one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1203108.stmLet's say large number of people were gathered in here and this airplane comes. I am sure it would have devastating if everyone started running.

 

[chroot]

But you just can not expect people to have no concerns about a low-flying plane in their city that sticks out like this. It was not an ordinary event. They know their sky well enough to see that, and they didn't know what was going on, as demonstrated by the calls to emergency services.

Well said. "Unusual events" involving 747s are not the sort of things that New Yorkers wish to be subjected to anymore. I can't blame them.

- Warren

 

[turbo]

I'm talking about the people that were running in the streets. I'd like to know what exactly they thought they would accomplish by doing this. This is probably one of the worst things you can have, a large crowd of people who are not thinking straight running over people that fall and potentially killing them.

People weren't running in the streets, as you claimed. They were taking prudent steps to ensure that they weren't trapped in high-rises, and they should be applauded for that, not belittled. I didn't make this up. How many people were killed in the stampede? How many people were injured? Got a number? How about zero?

 

[Cyrus]

None of this discussion about clear, rational thought addresses a point I made previously. Imagine you're working at the Nymex, your head buried in your workstation, when someone yells down the hall There's a 747 flying really low, headed this way, and an F-16 chasing it -- RUN!.

Here's the simple fact: You would all run. You would be stupid not to. You don't have time to think about whether or not the guy who yelled knows a Cessna from a Boeing. You don't have time to think about what kinds of flight patterns might simply be photo ops. You don't have time to think about what kinds of markings might be on the plane, or what they mean about how easily it could be hijacked.

You run, because that guy might be right, you haven't yet gathered any of your own evidence, and cynicism could cost you your life.

Once you're outside and the adrenaline rush is over, you might be mentally acute enough to put together the story, see the plane doing lazy circles around the island, and relax. That didn't stop you from running along with all your coworkers, who prompted others to run, who prompted others to run.

In this situation, 1% of the people had all the information, and some of them were not smart enough to put it all together. They sparked a panic among the other 99% which had few facts, but knew well enough not to sit around and wait for a crash.

Panics spread like wildfire, with or without reference to facts -- and that should have been expected by the people who planned this flight. Those YouTube videos of mass pranks serve as evidence of just how self-reinforcing panics are.

- Warren

Please don't make assumptions about what I would and wouldn't do, thanks.

 

[Cyrus]

People weren't running in the streets, as you claimed. They were taking prudent steps to ensure that they weren't trapped in high-rises, and they should be applauded for that, not belittled. I didn't make this up. How many people were killed in the stampede? How many people were injured? Got a number? How about zero?

You'd make a good politician.

 

[chroot]

Edit: I also hate how STUPID the media is calling this an "Air Force One Look-a-like". It's not a 'look-a-like'. IT IS Air Force One.

Speaking of stupid... the aircraft use the "Air Force One" call sign only when they're carrying the president. In that sense, the aircraft was not Air Force One.

- Warren

 

[Cyrus]

Speaking of stupid... the aircraft use the "Air Force One" call sign only when they're carrying the president. In that sense, the aircraft was not Air Force One.

- Warren

Yes, you are correct it is AF-1 when the president is inside. Thank's for nitpicking.

 

[chroot]

Please don't make assumptions about what I would and wouldn't do, thanks.

Your argument seems to be "people should be smarter, or less easily startled, because then these kinds of panics wouldn't happen." This is a fine argument, but one that does not apply to reality -- governments cannot magically make their citizens smarter or less easily startled.

Instead, shouldn't governments relate to their citizens as they actually are -- sometimes imperfect, frail, fearful, irrational?

Really, Cyrus, let me just ask you this:

Do you think governments have a responsibility to relate to their citizens as they actually are, or only as if they were much better educated and poised than they actually are?

- Warren

 

[chroot]

Yes, you are correct it is AF-1 when the president is inside. Thank's for nitpicking.

You're one of the best nitpickers I've ever witnessed, Cyrus. I'm simply your protege.

- Warren

 

[Cyrus]

Your argument seems to be "people should be smarter, or less easily startled, because then these kinds of panics wouldn't happen." This is a fine argument, but one that does not apply to reality -- governments cannot magically make their citizens smarter or less easily startled.

Let's think about this for a second, rationally, Warren. After 9-11, don't you think it would be wise of the government agencies to have some form of a warning system that could alarm the city if something was about to happen. Something that could send out text messages, electronic phone calls, or news flashes\radio announcements that would give general warning about a particular area about to be hit?

That SAME system, could send out messages that said, "The airplane is AF-1, please forgive us for the inconvenience".

Instead, shouldn't governments relate to their citizens as they actually are -- sometimes imperfect, frail, fearful, irrational?

I think the government should tread its citizens like adults and educate them specifically so these things don't happen. Telling them ridiculous things like http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/11/emergency.supplies/" is absurd.

I don't understand why you find it so hard to believe that some people wouldn't simply run out of a building just because others are. I'll tell you right now if I looked out my window and saw an airplane being escourted by an F-16 I would look to see how the F-16 is flying around the airplane because I've seen them intercept an actual aircraft before. I know what they do in real life, and that in the video wasn't it. So, no, I wouldn't "run like a school girl" out of the office. Maybe you would, that's your own prerogative. And that goes back to the government's responsibility of giving out information so people will know what to look for in a real life scenario of something going wrong.

I would appreciate it if you stopped telling me to "shut the hell up", and "speaking of stupid..." I have extended you more respect than this...please do the same.

 

[Cyrus]

You're one of the best nitpickers I've ever witnessed, Cyrus. I'm simply your protege.

- Warren

I love you too, warren.

 

[Phrak]

None of this discussion about clear, rational thought addresses a point I made previously. Imagine you're working at the Nymex, your head buried in your workstation, when someone yells down the hall There's a 747 flying really low, headed this way, and an F-16 chasing it -- RUN!.

I think that sums it up. Given the available information, for many, the intelligent action is flight. The cost of flight is a half hour of work.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes.

Your answer is tantamount to reserving your opinion to play it out whenver and however it suits you.

That's just plain wrong. When I saw it on TV, my first thought was that the terrorists had read Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor", where a rogue foreign pilot flies a 747 into the Capital building.

Yah well, James Bond foiled an attempt to wipe out humans on Earth in Moonraker ,but most of us distinguish between fantastical fiction and real-life events.

[Il]Logic like this leads to people curled up in the fetal position under the stairs in their basements for days on end. It is an argument in favor of mental breakdown.

No, it's an argument in favour of no longer being complacent in our towers (ivory or otherwise) and in favour of ensuring we have a place to go when fighter jets chase airliners over the Manhattan skyline.


There's really no point in arguing this point much further. As I've said: anyone can judge after-the-fact from their armchair. Talk's cheap.

 

[chroot]

That SAME system, which could send out messages that said, "The airplane is AF-1, please forgive us for the inconvenience".

Say, like the EAS? The one that was not used?

I think the government should tread its citizens like adults and educate them specifically so these things don't happen.

Okay, great. Unfortunately, no such education has occurred, or has worked. I ask you again:

Should the government relate to its citizens as they actually are, or as if they have had some kind of education that has never been offered, or has not worked?

because I've seen them intercept an actual aircraft before.

That puts you into an incredibly small minority. Should the government relate to its citizens as though they all share your experience and education, or should they relate to them as they actually are?

So, no, I wouldn't "run like a school girl" out of the office.

This has nothing to do with you, an individual. Please answer my questions about the stance you feel that governments should take towards their citizens.

- Warren

 

[Phrak]

(That's not one word)

It looks pretty scary place to me maybe because everyone wears same color and looks like hell lot of people. It would be pretty bad if someone shouts fire/bomb in these like places. And there have been many incidents where lots of people killed from stampedes (not all occurred at Mecca though).
Mecca one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1203108.stm


Let's say large number of people were gathered in here and this airplane comes. I am sure it would have devastating if everyone started running.

I thought it was common knowledge.

Sometimes they trample each other to death trying to get closer to the 'holy' meteor hide inside the big, holy box in the middle. Sometimes they trample each other getting to and from the holy box.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1135316.html"

 

[OAQfirst]

And that goes back to the government's responsibility of giving out information so people will know what to look for in a real life scenario of something going wrong.

On that note, is this information available? And is there risk of terrorists exploiting it? Because I, too, would like to know what to look for. I have some ideas, but I'm sure to be wrong more often than not.

Side note: Shortly after 9/11, feds went to Hollywood writers to see what terrorist scenarios they could conjure up as a discovery process; what possibilities exist that they never thought of. So, I guess the government doesn't always know, either. Thus, I hope any such information would today be much more reliable assuming that they've studied terrorism sufficiently since.

 

[Cyrus]

I thought it was common knowledge.

Sometimes they trample each other to death trying to get closer to the 'holy' meteor hide inside the big holy box in the middle. Sometimes they trample each other getting to and from the holy meteor.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1135316.html"

Wow, I had no idea that they did that! I thought they did that prayer on their carpets in a circle and walked around it. I didn't know they trample each other!

 

[russ_watters]

Your answer is tantamount to reserving your opinion to play it out however it suits you.

You missed the humor, Dave. The response was: panic=stupid.

I'm most certainly not one to be wishy-washy about my opinions. I am quite stronly opinionated.

Yah well, James Bond foiled an attempt to wipe out humans on Earth in Moonraker ,but most of us distinguish between fantastical fiction and real-life events.

Um hm. So you're saying that one who read Debt of Honor and considered it as far fetched as Moonraker would have - in the 20/20 hindsight - been correct? In any case, you said: "it simply had never occurred to anyone to think that anyone would use a commerical jet liner as a missile to take down a building" and that is still quite clearly wrong. Clearly it occurred to Tom Clancy and clearly fans of his (ie, me) put a lot of stock in the realism of his scenarios. It is worth noting that the government and military also put a lot of stock in his scenarios: they pay him for exactly that type of thinking. Too bad they just weren't paying attention this time.

 

[russ_watters]

*blinks*

Are you suggesting that the public reaction of fear and upset is... well... nonexistent? I mean, I watched a few videos of this flight and judging by the comments and the, "OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD!" coffee table chit chat in the background, I'd say they decided that it didn't quite look right.

Now you're just not following the argument. I know there was panic. I'm arguing the panic was stupid/wrong. You said:

Ahem. Well, it's a good thing then that the average New Yorker isn't a relatively dumb person then because they apparently didn't reach that conclusion. [the conclusion that there was no threat]

But that's the point: they reached the conclusion that there was a threat and they did it because they were stupid/irrational!

They're not mind readers. All they know is something isn't right and they're not in a good position to spell out possibilities.

Agreed. In my logic, that equates to stupid because:

Maybe there's a struggle in the cockpit and someone is trying to keep the plane in flight. Who can guess what is going on.

...that is irrational.

But you just can not expect people to have no concerns about a low-flying plane in their city that sticks out like this. It was not an ordinary event. They know their sky well enough to see that, and they didn't know what was going on, as demonstrated by the calls to emergency services. They're not going to spend some time in thought on terrorist tactics or just why it hasn't taken the plunge yet; their minds were probably front and center on reaction. I know mine would be.

I agree that this was not an ordinary event. I agree that we can expect people to react this way. I'm simply saying that these people were stupid and I don't have a lot of patience for stupidity.

 

[russ_watters]

None of this discussion about clear, rational thought addresses a point I made previously. Imagine you're working at the Nymex, your head buried in your workstation, when someone yells down the hall There's a 747 flying really low, headed this way, and an F-16 chasing it -- RUN!.

Here's the simple fact: You would all run.

Actually, I did respond to that before, but here it is again: No, warren, I wouldn't run. I don't run when I hear a fire alarm, I don't run when I hear a car backfire, and I wouldn't run if I heard someone say those words you put in italics. I'm not a sheep.

Furthermore, that video of the Japanese comedy show proves that not everyone is a sheep. Maybe it is only 1%, but I'm quite certain I am in that 1%.

You would be stupid not to. You don't have time to think about whether or not the guy who yelled knows a Cessna from a Boeing.

Hurry! Buy now! This sale won't last!

Just because you don't have time to figure out if there is a threat doesn't mean you should assume there is. That's basically the definition of gullibility.

 

[OAQfirst]

Now you're just not following the argument. I know there was panic. I'm arguing the panic was stupid/wrong.

Oh no. I'm following it precisely. It's where you wrote way back in post #35 that it annoys you, that this is where I follow from. What I'm getting at is how natural their reactions were, and given the circumstances how understandable as well. Be annoyed all you want. This is how the herd reacts and nothing is going to change that as the last few thousand years have proven. I suppose you'd stand by your window and watch all those people running down the streets, possibly trampling a few here and there, all the while shaking your head and declaring them as "stupid." I'm with you on this. I really am. Now then, with that in mind, I'd still head out the door with everyone else, and I wouldn't care what anyone thought of me. Call me stupid, but in that case I am still scared.

 

[russ_watters]

Say, like the EAS? The one that was not used?

- Warren

I won't speak for Cyrus, but just to clarify my position, warren, I'm not saying the government was right, I'm only saying the people were wrong. The two are not required to be paired: ie, the government was also wrong here. The government was wrong for underestimating how stupid people are. They were also wrong for wasting my money.

 

[chroot]

I'm simply saying that these people were stupid

Why bother posting if this is really all you have to say?

- Warren

 

[Cyrus]

I won't speak for Cyrus, but just to clarify my position, warren, I'm not saying the government was right, I'm only saying the people were wrong. The two are not required to be paired: ie, the government was also wrong here. The government was wrong for underestimating how stupid people are. They were also wrong for wasting my money.

Yes, I 100% agree with this statement.

 

[russ_watters]

Oh no. I'm following it precisely.

Then please explain exactly what you meant by this in post 71:

Ahem. Well, it's a good thing then that the average New Yorker isn't a relatively dumb person then because they apparently didn't reach that conclusion.

...which was a response to this:

Just what I said: that it isn't trying to find the Empire State Building - that after a half hour it isn't in imminent danger of crashing into anything.

People did stand and gawk in fear at the circling but not crashing plane for many minutes. They did reach the conclusion that I said they did.

Anyway...

It's where you wrote way back in post #35 that it annoys you, that this is where I follow from. What I'm getting at is how natural their reactions were, and given the circumstances how understandable as well. Be annoyed all you want. This is how the herd reacts and nothing is going to change that as the last few thousand years have proven. I suppose you'd stand by your window and watch all those people running down the streets, possibly trampling a few here and there, all the while shaking your head and declaring them as "stupid." I'm with you on this. I really am. Now then, with that in mind, I'd still head out the door with everyone else, and I wouldn't care what anyone thought of me. Call me stupid, but in that case I am still scared.

Well good luck with that! I know they are free to be stupid and I prefer not to be. Consider me the disappointed parent who knows his kids could do better.