Anarchism is the philosophy of a stateless society

[madness]

"The word liberal is commonly used as a synonym for "socialist" while the word socialist is frowned upon and considered derogatory"

There are several openly socialist parties in the UK, although they are relatively minor parties. Nevertheless they are given credibility and appear on the news etc. Norway and Sweden have fairly socialist (at least compared to the US) governments.

"I've honestly never heard it used that way before except as a historical reference"

I was actually more familiar with the word in the context of socialism than with capitalism. Most people who call themselves "liberal" here are anti-capitalist.

"I don't know if they call the rest of us "slaves" or not"

I imagine the citizens of Norway do not consider you as slaves, and that you do not consider them as slaves.

The idea behind socialism is that capitalism acts to restrict an individuals freedom through class division and "wage slavery". Neither ideology are trying to restrict peoples' liberty, they are both trying to maximise it. They just have different ideas on how to do it (and possibly what liberty is).

 

[jambaugh]

I don't think anybody is denying that force may sometimes be necessary. What anarchists (and most libertarians) are denying is that there should be a "monopoly of violence" in the state.

I thought anarchists desired a stateless society. It's not a monopoly of violence but unambiguous jurisdiction on the use of force. Force = violence or the threat of violence. [EDIT: ... which establishes the State.]
Even in the most all encompassing state I can take a swing at my Quaker neighbor or rape his wife. The state can confiscate all weapons but not our ability to do violence hence they cannot have a monopoly on its use. They can however punish or kill me for using violence. The threat to do so is their exercise of force and establishes their jurisdiction on its use.

At best Anarchy can be defined as the transition stage between periods of domination by a given power faction. Seeking Anarchy is like seeking freefall by jumping off a building. And I think the consequences of success are likely as dramatic.

This of course is not the same as seeking a change of state which is more like jumping out the window of a burning building. One is seeking escape from one undesirable situation and hoping to land in a better one.

The Anarchist sees government as unnecessary. The Libertarian sees it as necessary but a necessary evil and seeks to minimize its application to only the necessary role and that is to minimize the use of force. The Libertarian acknowledges my thesis that you can't wish away the use of force, only counter it with force.

For example, you cannot define private property without some social convention which incorporates the use of force to protect that property. Private property is what defines a thief which is someone the state punishes for taking that private property from its lawful owner. Without a state, your private property is how much you can hold on to by force. You become "the state" and your property your realm. You are subject to "war" when a bigger badder dude covets what you possess.

Only within the context of an existing state which enforces some rules of private property can you then --in the process of establishing the rules the state shall use-- argue what should or should not be considered private property. e.g. One may argue that what one produces, receives in exchanged for what one produces, or are gifted by others who previously produced or received in exchange or were gifted, constitutes private property not to be confiscated by the state without due process (or at all).

In the absence of a state you can only argue sensibly about what you as an individual should do, e.g. whether you as an individual should fight to keep a given coconut. You can argue with another about the issue but that argument must invoke the "shoulds" of their morality not your own. Thus two individuals may according to each's moral code both fight for the same coconut. The only way to establish a consistent definition of "should" which prevents fighting over coconuts is the establishment a social "should" backed by state sponsored force.

Note: I define an individual's moral code as what he thinks is right or wrong for him to do. It needn't be rational or self consistent. Individuals then either support the state or endure it or rebel against it (or some gradient in between) and they do so according to their own moral code.

 

[WhoWee]

Do you know any successful people who truly believe in, prefer, and desire anarchy? Anarchy is great for street gangs who prey on the defenseless - until they go home and realize grandma lives off a Government issued social security check and medicare/health care and a retirement pension invested in the stock market.

 

[madness]

Anarchists do desire a stateless society. The monopoly of violence lies in the police and army. Anarchism is not meant to be a transition phase and is not meant to be chaotic. Anarchists such as Chomsky rather advocate direct grass roots democracy, with the power spread evenly the heirarchical structure abolished.
There have been functioning examples of anarchist societies (such as much of civil war Spain), which were highly ordered and large in scale.
Libertarians may or may not seek a stateless society.
As for the rest of your post, I think if you replace state with grass roots democracy which an individual is free to participate in or leave then there should be no problems.

 

[madness]

As for successful people who desire anarchy. There is Gandhi, Tolstoy, Noam Chomsky, the people of civil war spain...

 

[Al68]

The idea behind socialism is that capitalism acts to restrict an individuals freedom through class division and "wage slavery".

That just doesn't add up. My freedom simply isn't restricted by what they call "wage slavery" because I choose it voluntarily. No government tells me to do it. No private institution tells me to do it. Who is restricting my freedom?

 

[madness]

The people who own the means of production get paid a disproportionate amount of money compared to the workers. So for example a factory owner is earning money out of the labour of the factory workers. This is what I think socialists mean by wage slavery. They then ask "why can't the workers own the means of production?". This is exactly what happened in anarchist Spain - the workers in the factories owned the factories, and elected leaders using direct democracy although the profit was shared.

So the reason a socialist would say your freedom is restricted by wage slavery is that without owning the means of production you cannot escape from it.

 

[Al68]

The people who own the means of production get paid a disproportionate amount of money compared to the workers. So for example a factory owner is earning money out of the labour of the factory workers. This is what I think socialists mean by wage slavery. They then ask "why can't the workers own the means of production?". This is exactly what happened in anarchist Spain - the workers in the factories owned the factories, and elected leaders using direct democracy although the profit was shared.

So the reason a socialist would say your freedom is restricted by wage slavery is that without owning the means of production you cannot escape from it.

Yes, but that's just using it as a figure of speech, like with "a slave to cigarettes".

That's fine, but one should at least recognize that it's a figure of speech when used that way and not true in a literal sense.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The people who own the means of production get paid a disproportionate amount of money compared to the workers. So for example a factory owner is earning money out of the labour of the factory workers. This is what I think socialists mean by wage slavery. They then ask "why can't the workers own the means of production?". This is exactly what happened in anarchist Spain - the workers in the factories owned the factories, and elected leaders using direct democracy although the profit was shared.

So the reason a socialist would say your freedom is restricted by wage slavery is that without owning the means of production you cannot escape from it.

The part that I underlined is quite possible in a capitalist society. It actually happens fairly often. The problem you see is that someone must invest in and create the means of production to begin with. If people come together and invest their time and effort into a project forcing them to give equal control and ownership to anyone else who comes along and becomes part of the company is to devalue (even steal) their work from them. No one truly owns the means of production then. That is the problem with the logic behind the socialist idea of 'the people' owning the means of production. Only where the means of production are owned by individuals are they truly in the hands of the people.

 

[WhoWee]

As for successful people who desire anarchy. There is Gandhi, Tolstoy, Noam Chomsky, the people of civil war spain...

WOW! That is quite a list you've compiled - are there any OTHER "successful" people on the list?

Better yet, are there any PF members that are ready to "join" the ranks of the anarchists? Are you ready to forget about laws and banks and distribution networks and infrastructure and ANYTHING organized by the state?

Who among you is prepared to stake your claim to a small tract of real property and defend it with your hands, to grow your own food to survive, to walk to a river/stream/lake and carry your water home in any container you can find, to give up utilities and communications, health care, employment, cash and investments, and every means of distribution you know?

Doesn't it sound GREAT? Talk about freedom...or does it sound scary to you too?

Ideology has it's place - it's not in the real world.

 

[Al68]

Who among you is prepared to...to give up utilities and communications, health care, employment, cash and investments, and every means of distribution you know?

I'm not an anarchist, but those things weren't invented by government. They were invented, and except for restrictions by government, for the most part, organized by private entities (in the U.S.).

The government's biggest contribution to most of those things in the U.S. was staying out of the way. (Except currency, some utilities, and roads, but although those were provided by government, they didn't have to be to exist).

Why would health care, employment, investments, and distribution be on the list? Those were primarily created, organized, and managed privately. Government's role in the U.S. historically was maintaining law and order, not actually managing or organizing privately provided goods and services.

Even today, most goods and services are primarily organized and managed privately, and even those that aren't could be, if freedom is protected, which is why we really need government.

That's where I disagree with anarchists, I believe protecting liberty is a legitimate role of government.

 

[jambaugh]

The people who own the means of production get paid a disproportionate amount of money compared to the workers.

Proportion implies ratio so I assume you are comparing the ratio worker's pay over owner's pay to something. Now what ratio are you comparing it to that you say it is disproportionate?

Clearly it is disproportionate to what you personally think it should be but "I think its wrong" isn't an argument or evidence to be used in an argument. Would you please fill in the blank?

"owners get paid an amount of money disproportionate to __________ as compared to workers."

 

[jambaugh]

Anarchists do desire a stateless society.

Which I assert makes them irrational as that is an impossibility short of annihilating all but one person on the planet.

The monopoly of violence lies in the police and army.

again that is only a monopoly if every member of society is in the police or in the army.

I cannot obtain a monopoly on the production of gold simply by declaring that I own all the gold mines. I must use force either through the state via enforcement of contracts or by my own bloody ruthless power to control all the gold mines and prevent anyone else from taking gold out of them. The state cannot eliminate non state sponsored violence. They can only make it illegal. So "monopoly on violence" is the wrong phrase. Try again.

Anarchism is not meant to be a transition phase and is not meant to be chaotic.

And I've made no statement about what an Anarchist intends. I'm making statements of fact about the nature of reality as it applies to the definition of Anarchism as the goal of as stateless society. The instant you eliminate the existing state you eliminate the state's suppression of organized use of force by other factions (e.g. street gangs and vigilante groups) and they will instantly become new states at war until a new equilibrium occurs. There is no avoiding the chaos and transitional nature of anarchy as defined by the elimination of the state.

Anarchists such as Chomsky rather advocate direct grass roots democracy, with the power spread evenly the heirarchical structure abolished.

Again what they advocate and what is possible do not necessarily have non-empty intersections. If Chomsky advocates direct grass roots democracy he is advocating a form of state and thus not a stateless society. That is unless he is advocating democracy without means of enforcement in which case what does the rapist care that people vote rape is illegal if there is no means to enforce that law.

The hazards of a direct democracy were very well outlined back when the founding fathers argued out the form of government the US would use. Who cares how people vote if there is no enforcement. Who protects the individual from being voted as tomorrows dinner if there is enforcement? And thus why should I hold any respect for what Chomsky advocates.

There have been functioning examples of anarchist societies (such as much of civil war Spain), which were highly ordered and large in scale.

Note the example you give was a transition period when the major power factions were fighting for dominance and so the smaller power factions i.e. small communities, could function as micro-states. Clearly once the fighting ended they did not long stay independent. But I still argue that all this means is that the state devolved to very small scale micro-states.

But anarchy does not mean putting anarchists in charge. They become the state. The critical premise of the anarchist is that spontaneous order forms from free individuals acting rationally (which is an invalid assumption) and that reason will in all circumstances preclude the preemptive use of force (again not a valid assumption).

As for the rest of your post, I think if you replace state with grass roots democracy which an individual is free to participate in or leave then there should be no problems.

So if the community votes to confiscate your crop and your farmland and distribute it, you are free to leave? What if you decide to stay? How is either case not a problem?

State enforced collectivism is NOT anarchy even if that state is a small village and if that state's decisions are arrived at via "grass roots democracy". Enforcement, even if that enforcement is all the yea-sayers in the democracy acting in concert, is "the state" whether those acting wish to call themselves a state or call themselves anarchists. They are acting in concert using the power of their numbers and using the authority of their vote. The state is always the adjudicator of its own authority. The state is a group of individuals acting through some agreement as to how and when force is to be applied.

Now if in your understanding my scenario is not anarchism I point out that is is a scenario common to "grass roots democracies" that emerged in various socialist revolutions of history. If in fact it is not anarchism then I point out it is yet another example of the instability of true anarchy.

If you claim it is anarchy then I say you are just trying to pass off your own version of state as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I think your best bet is to define anarchy as an asymptotic horizon used as a direction (like colder) instead of as a goal (absolute zero). One could then argue as Libertarians do that we should move towards less state involvement i.e. toward anarchy (to which I agree) instead of to anarchy= no state (which I assert is operationally meaningless). But such arguments are only valid in the context of where we are (or rather what the nature of the state is) here and now. One may presume that there is some ideal point of minimum state action but that point may change due to circumstances such as a crisis.

But ultimately how does your ideal anarchist society prevent the violent takeover by a group of dedicated evangelical "statests"? You can invoke Gandhi but he merely shamed the British into realizing they were oppressors and not beneficent paternal rulers. They gave India independence because their ego demanded it. Had Gandhi been dealing with the Romans he'd have been crucified in short order along with his followers. You may bring up Spain but again that was a brief period when many factions were braced against each other fighting for who would become the next State. It hardly constitutes an existing "anarchistic society" dealing with a single determined power faction deciding to take over.

The best, most accurate scenario I can think of to describe the type of anarchy you seem to advocate is the Mexican village in the movie the Magnificent Seven only without the Hollywood Heroes coming to the rescue.

 

[jambaugh]

I'm not an anarchist, but those things weren't invented by government. They were invented, and except for restrictions by government, for the most part, organized by private entities (in the U.S.).

This is quite true but those private entities were able to create and build without having to protect what they built from other private entities wishing to pilfer and loot. Consider how well the stores functioned in New Orleans after the Hurricane. Granted much stock was destroyed by the floods but plenty weren't. They lasted what? a day before looters cleaned them out?

The government's biggest contribution to most of those things in the U.S. was staying out of the way. (Except currency, some utilities, and roads, but although those were provided by government, they didn't have to be to exist).

Quite true if you restate it as the Government keeping the looters (including the Government) at bay.

Of course you understand this already as you state:

Even today, most goods and services are primarily organized and managed privately, and even those that aren't could be, if freedom is protected, which is why we really need government.

That's where I disagree with anarchists, I believe protecting liberty is a legitimate role of government.

 

[madness]

"Proportion implies ratio so I assume you are comparing the ratio worker's pay over owner's pay to something. Now what ratio are you comparing it to that you say it is disproportionate?"

I'm comparing the ratio of work done to the ratio of pay. So to fill in your blank. Owners get paid an amount disproportianate to the amount of work they do compared to workers

"Which I assert makes them irrational as that is an impossibility short of annihilating all but one person on the planet"

What about anarchist Spain?

"again that is only a monopoly if every member of society is in the police or in the army."

It is a monopoly because we are not legally entitled to use it.

"If Chomsky advocates direct grass roots democracy he is advocating a form of state and thus not a stateless society"
Again I refer you to anarchist Spain. There was no state, only grass roots democracy. There was order, for example if the factory workers didn't like the person running the factory they elected a new one.

"The instant you eliminate the existing state you eliminate the state's suppression of organized use of force by other factions (e.g. street gangs and vigilante groups) and they will instantly become new states at war until a new equilibrium occurs"
Again, it didn't happen in anarchist Spain. The anarchist position holds that what you are arguing against is already the case in the form of the state.

"Note the example you give was a transition period when the major power factions were fighting for dominance and so the smaller power factions i.e. small communities, could function as micro-states. Clearly once the fighting ended they did not long stay independent"

Anarchist Spain was large in scale, spanning much of Spain. They didn't stay independent because they were invaded by Franco and thousands were executed.

State enforced collectivism is NOT anarchy even if that state is a small village and if that state's decisions are arrived at via "grass roots democracy". Enforcement, even if that enforcement is all the yea-sayers in the democracy acting in concert, is "the state" whether those acting wish to call themselves a state or call themselves anarchists. They are acting in concert using the power of their numbers and using the authority of their vote. The state is always the adjudicator of its own authority. The state is a group of individuals acting through some agreement as to how and when force is to be applied.

If you wish to call everybody in a community "the state", you can. The anarchists only want to change the power structure from top-down to bottom-up.

But ultimately how does your ideal anarchist society prevent the violent takeover by a group of dedicated evangelical "statests"?

With an army?

 

[jambaugh]

I'm comparing the ratio of work done to the ratio of pay. So to fill in your blank. Owners get paid an amount disproportianate to the amount of work they do compared to workers

And workers get paid an amount disproportionate to the amount of capital they risk as compared to owners. If you compare to risked capital workers should get zero. The question then is, how do you arrive at a fair distribution?
... [long rant cut out.]...
Let me offer you the first try at answering.

But let me also point out that many companies make no profit plus undergo a capital loss. In fact the majority of start-up companies fail in which case the workers still got their wages over the time they worked but the owners, not only got zilch, they got negative payment "disproportionate" to the amount of work they do compared to workers. They certainly didn't get fair wages for the blood sweat and tears THEY put into the company.

 

[madness]

Your argument comes from a capitalist position and doesn't really come into play from a socialist point of view. In a socialist anarchist (there are anarcho-capitailsts too) framework, everyone would be risking the same amount of capital.
Socialists criticize capitalism itself, and anarchists criticize heirarchical structures. So in answer to your question, you arrive at a fair distribution by allowing the workers to own the means of production and democratically manage the factory (or whatever it is) themselves.

 

[WhoWee]

I'm not an anarchist, but those things weren't invented by government. They were invented, and except for restrictions by government, for the most part, organized by private entities (in the U.S.).

The government's biggest contribution to most of those things in the U.S. was staying out of the way. (Except currency, some utilities, and roads, but although those were provided by government, they didn't have to be to exist).

Why would health care, employment, investments, and distribution be on the list? Those were primarily created, organized, and managed privately. Government's role in the U.S. historically was maintaining law and order, not actually managing or organizing privately provided goods and services.

Even today, most goods and services are primarily organized and managed privately, and even those that aren't could be, if freedom is protected, which is why we really need government.

That's where I disagree with anarchists, I believe protecting liberty is a legitimate role of government.

Contract law, property rights, border treaties, Government investment in infrastructure (highways and highway maintenance make distribution possible), investments are policed or guaranteed by the Government, healthcare is licensed and standards are set by the Government, and workers rights (especially safety) are protected by Government.

 

[WhoWee]

Your argument comes from a capitalist position and doesn't really come into play from a socialist point of view. In a socialist anarchist (there are anarcho-capitailsts too) framework, everyone would be risking the same amount of capital.
Socialists criticize capitalism itself, and anarchists criticize heirarchical structures. So in answer to your question, you arrive at a fair distribution by allowing the workers to own the means of production and democratically manage the factory (or whatever it is) themselves.

The place for this type of debate is in a classroom. Anarchy doesn't work in the civilized "real" world without revolution or war.

I think our Capitalist society has been very fair in distributing wealth to poor people. Welfare has spent trillions of dollars to protect people - without burdening them with the ownership and management responsibilities of operating our industrial base.

Now you suggest that isn't good enough? Was the Government take-over of GM fair? Was the treatment of Bondholders fair? Should the Autoworkers Union have been given more than the rest of us? Should YOU have been given equity in GM - at the shareholders expense?

Anyone who has risked their financial security to start a business will disagree with you.
Anyone who has invested their personal funds in the stock market will disagree with you.
Anyone that holds bonds will disagree with you.

WHY will they disagree? They will disagree because they don't want their personal wealth taken away from them - regardless of amounts.

If you disagree with my comments, please explain to everyone that has something to lose how anarchy would make our lives better. Sell us on the benefits of anarchy - if you can.

 

[Al68]

So in answer to your question, you arrive at a fair distribution by allowing the workers to own the means of production and democratically manage the factory (or whatever it is) themselves.

In a free market, anyone is "allowed to own means of production". There is no limit on "means of production".

Means of production are themselves "produced". It's not like they came first, then came labor. It's the other way around.

 

[Mattara]

The problem with "democratically managing the factory" is that democracy is coercion because you can be forced with violence and the threat of violence to support something that you do not, in fact, support at all.

 

[jambaugh]

Your argument comes from a capitalist position and doesn't really come into play from a socialist point of view.

My argument is about the dynamics of interacting people. You can't invalidate the argument by shifting "points of view". If the argument is invalid point out where it is invalid. If its validity is contextual then argue the context. But the arguer's point of view is not a context. In particular...

Socialists criticize capitalism itself,...

how by your use of "point of view" dependence can a Socialist who thereby is NOT using a capitalist point of view legitimately criticize capitalism?

... and anarchists criticize heirarchical structures. So in answer to your question, you arrive at a fair distribution by allowing the workers to own the means of production and democratically manage the factory (or whatever it is) themselves.

In a socialist anarchist (there are anarcho-capitailsts too) framework, everyone would be risking the same amount of capital.

How can everyone risk the same amount of capital if not everyone has sufficient capital to pay their share? By the way, nothing in free market capitalism prevents a group of skilled laborers pooling their capital to form a company. Worker ownership is perfectly consistent with capitalism. What is not is workers using force to seize "the means of production" from the owner who did invest his capital.

Let me also point out that "the means of production" is ill defined. Part of the "means of production" is the contractual agreements of the owners and organizational leadership of management. Take the "Kelly Girls" the temp agency. There is no factory or raw materials or machinery. There is just a company which provides short notice on demand temporary office management labor. The actual girls could very well work independently of this structure but they benefit by the organization and logistical coordination of the management plus the contractual benefits e.g. retainer payments, and search and advertisement services provided by and paid for with the owner and his capital investment.

A new worker without capital must work for wages to get capital to invest in ownership of his own enterprise. He is free to do this in a capitalistic society and if successful enough to expand that enterprise hiring more workers. Indeed if he can demonstrate a reasonable chance of success in the venture he can get venture capitalists to back his enterprise. They will want a share in the ownership but that is their return on the risk and time use of this capital.

Provided he does not seek to obtain capital by fraud or force the socialist anarchist is perfectly free to live by his ideals in a free, free-market Federalist capitalist state. His ideals may make him non-competitive but that is not the fault of his competition.

Contrarily the capitalist is not free to exercise his ideals in a socialist state (whether they call their organization a state or an anarchy, if they use force to thwart capitalism they are a tyrannical state.) It would seem to me a no brainer that the capitalist society is more free.

You speak of "workers" vs "owners" as if they were disjoint sets. A worker is not a worker if he isn't working, he's just a person. An owner is a worker if he is adding value to the products of a concern. Let me point out that every job, EVERY job, is an intellectual occupation. A janitor doesn't just push a broom around, he must judge where unclean areas are and how to remediate them and whether his efforts have succeeded to the standards set. He uses perception and judgment. So too a ditch digger. Though some jobs are more physically demanding than others all are exercises of mind coordinating action. Without the mind there can be no value added. I make this point to say that the venture capitalist is too adding value through the judgment he makes in where and how much he will risk his capital. He judges how risky a venture is, how much the use of his capital should cost to offset that risk and whether he has enough information to make a reliable judgment. If he fails he looses capital. If he succeeds he gains more capital. The phylum of venture capitalists evolves with the most efficient at judging risk being the most successful.

Furthermore in the context of needing to court the venture capitalist the entrepreneur (possibly a dissatisfied worker) must demonstrate a competent business plan. Often he must submit multiple revisions before he is trusted with the investor's hard won capital. By this process the entrepreneur's chances of success (of generating and maintaining profitable productivity) is greatly greatly increased. The capitalist has added value to the enterprise by both providing the needed capital and by judging and remediating risk.

If we do it as you suggest "everyone risks the same amount of capital" firstly how broadly are you defining "everyone" and who has the competence to evaluate the risk of the venture in question? The successful venture capitalist has empirically demonstrated competence by virtue of his success. He risks only his own capital on his judgment. The collective you suggest do they go by vote? Do they appoint an executive to decide? Do they vote with their choice to participate? (This last case smells an awful lot like evil capitalists buying shares in an evil corporation under an evil free market system) And why can't individuals who more strongly believe in the enterprise not be able to risk more of their own capital in exchange for more return in the event of success? If its true anarchy then certainly nothing constrains him? And if something (a state?) does constrain him how is this situation more free than bad ole capitalism?

Now here is my answer to the question. A free market. The investor-owner using free contracts auctions the use of his capital by the enterprise. How much a block of ownership costs and thus how much return he gets per invested coin is determined by supply and demand and quality of the potential return (low quality being high risk). Likewise the worker auctions his service using a free contract again at a wage dictated by supply and demand and the quality of his offering and of his work situation. He asks more for hazardous labor, and for long hours. He is offered more if his work quality is higher. And if the enterprise does not distribute revenue equitably between worker wages and owner-investor returns then the value added by investors vs value added by workers will be out of balance making the productivity of the enterprise less than the ideal. They will not be as competitive against other enterprises in the same markets.

Inequity is defined empirically by inefficiency and lower productivity. The system if unconstrained by outside political (and hence coercive) forces is self correcting.

Only in a free market capitalist system is freedom maximized because only in such a system is the producer truly compensated in proportion to his effort and the benefit he provides to other individuals by his production. The producer may be either a worker, manager or capital investor. Or he may be a market trader or a banker or a independent contractor. If he is overpaid he will be underbid by competitors. If he is underpaid or rather offered underpayment he will sell his services elsewhere.

Money is ultimately a physical token of empirically verified moral value. You pay someone in direct proportion to how much he does for you as you judge your own benefit plus how much he sacrificed in the process as he judges. The negotiation of the contract is the mutual adjudication of what relative value this beneficent action has. He who does the most good to the most people gets the most tokens. He who receives the most benefit must reward the benefactor with tokens he earned by doing good himself. The only caveat is that an individual may give his tokens. Even the administration of tokens is a benefit hence the good banker gets rewarded. Any attempt to interfere with this system of moral prestige is a universal sin!

If you are dying of thirst in the desert and you run across a fellow who offers you a jug of water for $10,000 dollars you should pay it and be glad. Your life is worth $10,000 dollars to you and he just saved it by his foresight in having extra water. You may want to haggle but you should not stand on your rights to his beneficial action. Further if you see he has done this often you should go get a truck of water and compete with him selling at $500 a jug. Eventually some smart fellow will come along and install a coin operated water dispenser and many many lives will be saved. Free markets self correct.

 

[WhoWee]

By the way, nothing in free market capitalism prevents a group of skilled laborers pooling their capital to form a company. Worker ownership is perfectly consistent with capitalism. What is not is workers using force to seize "the means of production" from the owner who did invest his capital.

Did you notice the first thing the UAW wanted to do was sell their share of GM - that was given to them. Did anyone else wonder why they didn't propose an ESOP or some other method to acquire their employer?

If all of the UAW members and retirees went to the bank and borrowed $50,000 each to invest in GM, they could have attracted nearly unlimited capital in the market to acquire and operate the company "the right way".

 

[madness]

"I think our Capitalist society has been very fair in distributing wealth to poor people. Welfare has spent trillions of dollars to protect people - without burdening them with the ownership and management responsibilities of operating our industrial base."

Welfate is socialist and would be unacceptable in a free market.

"If you disagree with my comments, please explain to everyone that has something to lose how anarchy would make our lives better"

Socialism should make life better for working class people, obviously CEO's of companies aren't the ones who benefit, that's the whole point. In the UK I get all my university fees paid as well as an interest free student loan and free health care. I am incredibly thankful that I live in a country which provides this, as I would not be able to afford to go to a top university otherwise.

 

[madness]

"In a free market, anyone is "allowed to own means of production". There is no limit on "means of production"."

Then why is it that people born poor are statistically much less likely to go to a good university or end up with a high paying job? People who are born at a disadvantage have less access to education, a higher chance of getting involved in crime and less access to legal defense than those born into wealthy families.
The key point is that people are not born with equal opportunities, and do not always have access to the "means of production".

 

[madness]

"My argument is about the dynamics of interacting people. You can't invalidate the argument by shifting "points of view". If the argument is invalid point out where it is invalid."

In historical examples of socialist anarchism, the workers collectively owned the factory and democratically elected someone to manage it. In this case, everyone risks the same capital, and your argument doesn't come into play.

"how by your use of "point of view" dependence can a Socialist who thereby is NOT using a capitalist point of view legitimately criticize capitalism?"

A socialist criticises capitalism on the basis that allows a select few to become wealthy through the labour of the majority.

"How can everyone risk the same amount of capital if not everyone has sufficient capital to pay their share?"

Why wouldn't they have sufficient capital? The whole point of socialism is to attempt to spread the narrow concentration of wealth among more people.

Sorry I haven't read the rest of your post, it's quite (very) long and I don't have time at the moment.

 

[Al68]

"In a free market, anyone is "allowed to own means of production". There is no limit on "means of production"."

Then why is it that people born poor are statistically much less likely to go to a good university or end up with a high paying job? People who are born at a disadvantage have less access to education, a higher chance of getting involved in crime and less access to legal defense than those born into wealthy families.
The key point is that people are not born with equal opportunities, and do not always have access to the "means of production".

My point was that the "means of production" are themselves a product of voluntarily sold labor. Factories don't just appear, they are built by labor that is voluntarily sold to the owner.

I never made the claim that life was fair, or that outcomes would be equal. I made the claim that free market capitalism is a consequence of individual liberty. Voluntary socialism can also be a consequence of individual liberty, but it's just much less common for people to make that choice when they have it.

Owners get paid an amount disproportianate to the amount of work they do compared to workers

This doesn't make any sense. Owners don't get paid for labor (unless they are also an employee).

If I invested $10 million in GM stock and made $1 million on it last year, I would have made much more than an average worker at GM, but it would have absolutely nothing to do with any labor on my part.

 

[jambaugh]

In historical examples of socialist anarchism, the workers collectively owned the factory and democratically elected someone to manage it. In this case, everyone risks the same capital, and your argument doesn't come into play.

Again how is this not allowed in a free market capitalistic system? And for a specific example I direct your attention to my last comment below.

A socialist criticises capitalism on the basis that allows a select few to become wealthy through the labour of the majority.

How are you going to disallow this without force? e.g. in an anarchistic socialism?

Do you not agree that the more productive someone is the more compensation they should receive? Do you not agree that the more risk someone takes the more compensation they should receive?

Efficiently functioning profitable enterprises are not self assembling automatic machines a worker just walks up to and turns the crank on. The logistics of creating them, the commitments of capital and assessment of risk are skills requiring experience and expertise. The exercise of these skills enable the enterprise and thus constitutes a huge "value added" level of productivity.

The rich get rich by being productive on a large scale, by deferring gratification in the short term to build up working capital, by taking risks with that capital, and most especially by enabling the worker to be productive and reap the benefits of that productivity.

"How can everyone risk the same amount of capital if not everyone has sufficient capital to pay their share?"

Why wouldn't they have sufficient capital? The whole point of socialism is to attempt to spread the narrow concentration of wealth among more people.

The UAW is free to, as an alternative to a strike, leave the evil capitalist auto companies en masse and building their own production facilities under the system you described. If they do not have enough capital then for certain some do not have enough to contribute their equal share of the total capital needed. Nothing in this country prevents them from doing this and acquiring the capital externally. But the persons risking that capital must be compensated or they won't participate. (Unless you want to force him.)

Why does UAW not do this? I'll tell you. Because the management and ownership of Ford Motor Corp. is an essential ingredient in the UAW being able to produce those cars profitably. It is not "Evil Capitalists getting rich off the backs of workers" it is the capitalists and the workers jointly maximizing productivity and freely contracting on their relative compensation for the utility of their contribution.

Socialists speak of "spreading the wealth around" as if wealth is a pre-existing substance like butter. This is one of the worst errors socialists make. Money is just paper. Wealth is the ability to get things done and the value each individual places on getting those specific things done. Money is a token of wealth. If you weekly redistribute the money evenly then everyone will know that no matter how much they acquire, next week it is spread again. The money no longer is an incentive to work because it no longer represents how much one had to product to get it.

An individual's wealth grows because he acquires indebtedness from his service to others which he can exchange for services from others. The arguments over the economic systems must acknowledge this truth. Socialists argue that person A. is better off with half his wealth so long as those with more wealth have theirs reduced by a larger fraction.

Wealth is not relative in this sense. My wealth is my ability to obtain comforts and necessities, to communicate, be entertained and to get these with minimum effort. If I can teach physics to someone for (what can now be purchased with) $100,000 and they can leverage this knowledge along with their talents to make $1,000,000,000 then am I not better off? Or should I restrict my teaching to only those who only pay me $100 and only use it to make $200?

Sorry I haven't read the rest of your post, it's quite (very) long and I don't have time at the moment.

Yes I do go on. Take your time. I'll say one more thing and then shut the heck up.

The Plymouth Colony which socialism long before it had a name. Their original system is very close to your described social anarchism: See: http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0902/0902amsoc.htm" .

The result was near disastrous. The true original meaning of the American Thanksgiving holiday was the Pilgrims' thanking God for their discovery of the superior free market system:

"By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine, now God gave them plentie, and the face of things was changed, to the rejoysing of the harts of many, for which they blessed God. And in the effect of their perticular planting was well seene, for all had, one way and other, pretty well to bring the year aboute, and some of the abler sorte and more industrious had to spare, and sell to others, 50 as any generall wante of famine hath not been amongest them since to this day."--Gov. Bradford 1623

Of course it isn't taught that way in schools today.

I suggest you read the whole account from the original history: http://www.mith2.umd.edu/eada/html/display.php?docs=bradford_history.xml" and add it to your list of historical references. Indeed you're time, if limited, is better spent reading this than reading my rants.

 

[WhoWee]

"I think our Capitalist society has been very fair in distributing wealth to poor people. Welfare has spent trillions of dollars to protect people - without burdening them with the ownership and management responsibilities of operating our industrial base."

Welfate is socialist and would be unacceptable in a free market.

"If you disagree with my comments, please explain to everyone that has something to lose how anarchy would make our lives better"

Socialism should make life better for working class people, obviously CEO's of companies aren't the ones who benefit, that's the whole point. In the UK I get all my university fees paid as well as an interest free student loan and free health care. I am incredibly thankful that I live in a country which provides this, as I would not be able to afford to go to a top university otherwise.

You are arguing in favor of socialism, not anarchism. How would society benefit from anarchy?

 

[madness]

"You are arguing in favor of socialism, not anarchism. How would society benefit from anarchy?"

Anarchism is a very broad set of ideologies, ranging from anarcho-communism to anarcho-capitalism, from collectivist to individualist. The only common theme as I am aware, is that any form of authority has prove itself to be legitimate. I'll provide a youtube video of Noam Chomsky talking on this point.



I would prefer to live in a society where power is not centralised in a tiny proportion of the population, and I think the burden of proof is on the authoritarians.

 

[Al68]

"You are arguing in favor of socialism, not anarchism. How would society benefit from anarchy?"

Anarchism is a very broad set of ideologies, ranging from anarcho-communism to anarcho-capitalism, from collectivist to individualist. The only common theme as I am aware, is that any form of authority has prove itself to be legitimate. I'll provide a youtube video of Noam Chomsky talking on this point.



I would prefer to live in a society where power is not centralised in a tiny proportion of the population, and I think the burden of proof is on the authoritarians.

I think WhoWee was referring to the authoritarian socialist centralized power that used force to provide your "university fees paid as well as an interest free student loan and free health care." That is an example of socialist authoritarianism, not anarchism.

You said you were thankful that you lived in a country that used authoritarian force against others to provide your "university fees, loans, and health care", now you say you would prefer to live in a country that isn't authoritarian? Which is it?

 

[madness]

You don't have to choose between socialism and anarchism, hence the term socialist anarchism. This has been discussed at length already in this thread.

 

[jambaugh]

I would prefer to live in a society where power is not centralised in a tiny proportion of the population, and I think the burden of proof is on the authoritarians.

Burden of proof of what? I haven't heard arguments only claims. What values are you asserting anarchy and most especially socialistic anarchy better fulfill in their actualization than say Federal capitalism? It might help to outline the priorities before speaking of burden of proof.

Is individual civil liberty less important than the "common good"? Is individual welfare outweighed by common welfare? Does liberty trump wellbeing (as defined by others?)
I.e. is it better for individuals to have the right to act against their own interests as defined by criterion other than their own?

Once a goal or a value to be optimized is established then what beginning assumptions are we to make? People act rationally? Power corrupts? 2+2=5?

It would also be helpful if you could give in clear terms what you mean by Anarchism. You speak of "grass roots democracy" but that's "pure democracy" not anarchism as you do not explain in any detail what the voters have the authority to decide, especially with regard to the use of force. Anarchism presumably has something to say about distribution of the authority to use force.

I suggest you sit down, and write your own draft charter or constitution or social contract outlining how an anarchistic system as you see it would be implemented. It needn't be perfect but it would be a hint at your definition.

I still for the life of me do not understand what you mean by anarchistic socialism or socialist anarchism or what-ever. Socialism dictates redistribution of wealth but that cannot be implemented without coercive force which presumes at least temporarily the action of a state. You speak disparagingly about a system where wealth is "inequitably distributed" but that distribution occurs via free choice contracts in the absence of coercive force. I can understand the definition of anarchistic capitalism but I can also argue against it...(specifically the ability to hire thugs to coerce).

I don't think your ideology is either well defined or self consistent.

 

[Galteeth]

They weren't the first libertarians, they were just the first to use the term "libertarian" to describe themselves. Anyone can call themselves libertarian. They did not, however believe in the individual right to own one's labor. And although they called themselves "libertarian socialists", they were not advocates of a government imposed socialist economic system, either. They used both words very differently than commonly used today.They weren't the original libertarians, or libertarians at all. They just widely used the term first, while the word liberty was long commonly used to mean the opposite of what they believed in. And they used the word slavery to refer to what the word liberty had long been used to mean.

It's called propaganda.

But, I'm sure you've heard the expression "a rose by any other name (is still a rose)". I value my right to decide for myself whether, when, and how to sell or trade my labor. Someone using the word "slavery" to describe that affects only how they choose to use the word, it doesn't actually change the situation.

The context that might make this more familiar to you is that private property rights were seen as being enforced by the state. There are different views on this subject among the anarchist/libertarian left.

Being a self-described anarchist, I have given these matter a lot of thought, and am familiar with the various arguments. Some left anarchists take the meaning of the world "anarchy" very literally, meaning no rulers, or in other words, no hierarchy, even one that evolves without the use of force. Others are not so extreme, and believe in the idea of private property although not necessarily that force is justified to defend it. Most of these on the libertarian left do not extend this concept to ownership over means of production, or land, or other things of this sort where a single individual's ownership gives them a perpetually stronger bargaining position for free exchange then is created by the fruit of their labor alone. Thus opposing "capitalism" from this viewpoint is not opposing a "free market" but the notion of incruing rewards from the re-investment of capital.
Other anarchists see the term as a negative right, i.e., the absolute right to be free of violence, with economic arrangements as a secondary matter entirely (although since all economic arrangements would require the absolute consent of all involved, it is unlikely you would have "capitalists" in the modern sense of the term.)
On the right, you have many who don't oppose violence at all, just its monopoly. This is somewhat similar to the position of Rothbard. To me this is the most incoherent position, as the "competing" private forces are essentially warring governments.
You also have more moderate right wing anarchists who oppose force, but support the notion of property and capital in its modern form. You also have "minarchists" which are similar to what one thinks of as modern day american libertarians, who see the necessity of a state, but only in an absolute minimal role, which means preventing violence, protecting property rights, and enforcing contracts.
Many of these "minarchist" types also believe in the notion of keeping the state as local as possible.

 

[jambaugh]

As I suggested and as Chomsky seems to indicate in the youtube interview posted, anarchism seems more a political direction similar to left vs right than a specific system of principles or goal. It is a direction in one of the many dimensions of political systems.

Nonetheless we can define "anarchy" as it is traditionally used as the asymptotic limit (stateless society) and I think it obvious this is at best a highly unstable transitory situation. It is a meaningful phenomenon and the right word is "anarchy" so I suggest those trying to define a political ideal qualify further their labels.

There are also two factors in state structure which I am seeing ignored here but which are exemplified by Federalism. Federalism advocates maximum authority held by the most central state but minimal jurisdiction. The constraint on this minimization which keeps it from being trivial (zero jurisdiction) is the justification for the use of force also mentioned by Chomsky. Dually maximal jurisdiction is reserved for the most distributed level (the individual as a state of 1) but minimal authority (only authority over self and property and potentially over incompetent dependents such as children).

Federalism seems to me to have been designed to promote the ideals espoused by anarchists (sans economic qualifiers such as socialist) while preserving the stability lacking in "naive anarchism".

Is Federal Anarchism an oxymoron in the sense you anarchists define anarchism?