Anxious about majoring in physics — considering a switch to engineering

[dpatnd]

You write well for a college freshman. I think you will do fine regardless of whatever course you take.

Thank you. I have historically been a humanities and social science person, only becoming interested in STEM after freshman year of high school.

 

[Locrian]

The thing that perplexes me here is that it seems to focused on the wrong problem. We've had very few complaints in this forum from folks working as a physicists that they were making 10%-15% less than some engineer or other. Instead, the complaints we've been getting for ~15 years now, is that folks invest in a physics degree and then don't actually get to work in physics.

And those who both don't get to work in the field they chose *and* take a pay cut changing careers, they're the ones who seem most put-off about it.

 

[homeylova223]

I do not not know I would do the degree that actually gets you a job. I was reading this forum post about a guy who had a degree in space physics spent 125,000 in debt and could not find a job. He spent four years trying to find a job.https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...yed-for-months-years-this-is-my-story.896993/
I think engineering will get you a job because physics is more academic.

This guy reminds me of myself. He followed his passion but his passion was something hard to find work in because the DOD cut funding to space physics.

 

[ZapperZ]

@dpatnd : Here's my advice to you.

Now that you are well-aware of challenges of finding a job with just a B.Sc. in Physics, and now that you have decided to stick with physics, then throughout your undergraduate program, try to cast as wide of a net as possible. Try to choose electives or extra work that make you more "employable" if you do decide to stop at just a B.Sc degree. If you have inclination for experiments or working with equipment, then see if you can take classes in electronics, instrumentation, etc. If you like programming, numerical analysis, etc, then try to do that, especially in computational physics. And certainly, depending on your grades, you want to work in research groups or getting internships.

My point here is that there are many ways, especially at ND, for you to make your ending B.Sc. degree in physics to NOT be a "generic" physics degree, that you actually have useful skills that an employer might want.

Now, here's the kicker: Life happens while you're making plans.

It means that a lot of things can happen, and a lot of things can change, on your way from Point A to Point B. You may end up seeing a wider view of a physics degree, especially as you progress further in your education. You may see more than just a 1-dimensional view of what physics is, and that there are many areas that you never even thought of or are even aware of, that spark your interest and passion. Your view of the tedious process of getting a higher degree in physics may change because of such revelation. You just never know.

If that is the case, then your extra preparation during your undergraduate years will not have hindered you in any way. In fact, it might even be beneficial.

My consistent advice to any student intending to pursue a career in physics has always been to go for it, but also make preparations along the way for the possibility that you won't end up in what you intend to do. You want to eventually do theoretical cosmology? Fine! But don't ignore learning about computational methods, or discard lab work on growing thin films, or work on ultra-high vacuum systems. This way, if things don't work out, you won't be left out in the cold with a piece of paper that has almost no value in the workplace.

Zz.

 

[Dale]

try to cast as wide of a net as possible

And that wide net should include people, not just academics. @dpatnd, be sure to branch out and deliberately and actively cultivate personal contacts outside of the community you are comfortable with. This will, by definition, be uncomfortable but will help immensely in job searches. As a former hiring manager, I can tell you the immense value in having a personal connection, someone willing to talk with a hiring manager about you.

 

[gmax137]

As a former hiring manager, I can tell you the immense value in having a personal connection, someone willing to talk with a hiring manager about you.

Very sound advice, and applies no matter what major you follow, and no matter what career/job you're trying to land. The real world operates via social interactions.

 

[dpatnd]

I do not not know I would do the degree that actually gets you a job. I was reading this forum post about a guy who had a degree in space physics spent 125,000 in debt and could not find a job. He spent four years trying to find a job.https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...yed-for-months-years-this-is-my-story.896993/
I think engineering will get you a job because physics is more academic.

This guy reminds me of myself. He followed his passion but his passion was something hard to find work in because the DOD cut funding to space physics.

As I said in my original post, debt is thankfully not something I will have upon graduation owing to my full scholarship.

 

[dpatnd]

@dpatnd : Here's my advice to you.

Now that you are well-aware of challenges of finding a job with just a B.Sc. in Physics, and now that you have decided to stick with physics, then throughout your undergraduate program, try to cast as wide of a net as possible. Try to choose electives or extra work that make you more "employable" if you do decide to stop at just a B.Sc degree. If you have inclination for experiments or working with equipment, then see if you can take classes in electronics, instrumentation, etc. If you like programming, numerical analysis, etc, then try to do that, especially in computational physics. And certainly, depending on your grades, you want to work in research groups or getting internships.

My point here is that there are many ways, especially at ND, for you to make your ending B.Sc. degree in physics to NOT be a "generic" physics degree, that you actually have useful skills that an employer might want.

Now, here's the kicker: Life happens while you're making plans.

It means that a lot of things can happen, and a lot of things can change, on your way from Point A to Point B. You may end up seeing a wider view of a physics degree, especially as you progress further in your education. You may see more than just a 1-dimensional view of what physics is, and that there are many areas that you never even thought of or are even aware of, that spark your interest and passion. Your view of the tedious process of getting a higher degree in physics may change because of such revelation. You just never know.

If that is the case, then your extra preparation during your undergraduate years will not have hindered you in any way. In fact, it might even be beneficial.

My consistent advice to any student intending to pursue a career in physics has always been to go for it, but also make preparations along the way for the possibility that you won't end up in what you intend to do. You want to eventually do theoretical cosmology? Fine! But don't ignore learning about computational methods, or discard lab work on growing thin films, or work on ultra-high vacuum systems. This way, if things don't work out, you won't be left out in the cold with a piece of paper that has almost no value in the workplace.

Zz.

Well, ND offers physics concentrations in areas like astrophysics, computer engineering, etc. I am considering doing a concentration in either aeronautics or computer science. As for research, I am currently doing prep-work for a professor, and will begin officially next semester. The research is in computational biophysics.

 

[ZapperZ]

As for research, I am currently doing prep-work for a professor, and will begin officially next semester. The research is in computational biophysics.

If I were you, I'd dive whole-heartedly into that area, and I don't mean just restricting yourself to the computational aspect of biophysics.

Zz.

 

[Dale]

I am currently doing prep-work for a professor, and will begin officially next semester. The research is in computational biophysics.

That is a likely (IMO) field to have a lot of opportunity both in industry and academia over the course of the next few decades.

 

[dpatnd]

That is a likely (IMO) field to have a lot of opportunity both in industry and academia over the course of the next few decades.

Is that right?
I just approached this professor because he was a great instructor in general chemistry.

 

[Dale]

Is that right?
I just approached this professor because he was a great instructor in general chemistry.

Well, nobody can completely predict the future, but I think yes. There is a push towards precision or individualized medicine, and computational biophysics will be needed for that to succeed. Also, easy drugs have already been discovered and future drug discoveries will likely need more predictive tools

 

[StatGuy2000]

Silly, perhaps. Nevertheless, I feel this may be a cultural difference between you and I. You do not understand what shame has to do with it, just as I find it hard to understand how some people don’t fit shame into their decision-making processes. I grew up in an environment where the concepts of shame, honour, prestige, and face all intermingle. I agree that, at times, these things don’t make any logical sense. However, that doesn’t mean I can just throw away a culturally-ingrained way of thinking. It’s something that I have to wrestle with, sometimes on my own, sometimes with strangers on the internet.

@dpatnd , I am curious as to your cultural background, or where you specifically grew up. The environment you speak of reminds me of an especially traditional background in various regions of Asia, especially South Asia or the Middle East (as someone who is half-Japanese, I can recognize certain cultural aspects of what you speak of).

I understand that this is a personal question which you might not feel like answering in an open forum, so feel free to respond to me via PM instead.

 

[dpatnd]

@dpatnd , I am curious as to your cultural background, or where you specifically grew up. The environment you speak of reminds me of an especially traditional background in various regions of Asia, especially South Asia or the Middle East (as someone who is half-Japanese, I can recognize certain cultural aspects of what you speak of).

I understand that this is a personal question which you might not feel like answering in an open forum, so feel free to respond to me via PM instead.

My parent is Moldovan, but I grew up in Moldova, Turkey, and Kenya (mostly in the latter two).
Apart from prestige, the terms I mentioned aren’t ones we commonly use. They are just how I would summarize the ”unspoken” variables in our value system. Of course, I was also influenced in how I think by those I encountered in the various places I’ve lived, East and South Asians included.

 

[dpatnd]

I voiced this concern in my original post, but how do physics majors who later choose to transition into engineering via a Master’s pay for their degree? Do most just go into debt (assuming they do not have an employer willing to cover the costs)?

 

[Dr Transport]

yes

 

[WWGD]

I don't know if this has been dealt with but maybe if you have practical side skills like programming and/or stats that makes you more employable, that may give you some peace of mind in your studies. A middle of the road approach.

 

[homeylova223]

Programming just seems so important nowadays. To me a physics bs is like a math bs, it is interesting stuff to learn at least to me but it has not use outside of academia. No employer gives a dam about delta epsilon proofs or real analysis. The same thing with physics no one will hire you because you know about displacement vs distance and other undergrand physics knowledge. At best you can get a job helping other student do their homework sadly if you can't code...

 

[homeylova223]

This leads to an even bigger question why is the university offering degrees that have no real life application. So much of what goes on in colleges has no real life use English literature,film, most of the fine arts. You do not need to go to college but to be a fine artist, some of the best artist never even finished school like van gogh. Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

 

[WWGD]

This leads to an even bigger question why is the university offering degrees that have no real life application. So much of what goes on in colleges has no real life use English literature,film, most of the fine arts. You do not need to go to college but to be a fine artist, some of the best artist never even finished school like van gogh. Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

So, take initiative and learn programming and/or Stats so you have something to fall back on which gives you some breathing room.

 

[symbolipoint]

I am showing emphasis with italicized bold:

This leads to an even bigger question why is the university offering degrees that have no real life application. So much of what goes on in colleges has no real life use English literature,film, most of the fine arts. You do not need to go to college but to be a fine artist, some of the best artist never even finished school like van gogh. Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

Some has no real life use, and some does have real life use. A person does not know which until later.

 

[dpatnd]

This leads to an even bigger question why is the university offering degrees that have no real life application. So much of what goes on in colleges has no real life use English literature,film, most of the fine arts. You do not need to go to college but to be a fine artist, some of the best artist never even finished school like van gogh. Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

Regarding your critique of the utility of college education, I would counter that it is not the purpose of universities to offer areas of study with practical use. Universities are places of learning, not trade schools.

 

[dpatnd]

Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

Though, yes, the debt situation is outrageous. If Master's degrees were funded like PhDs, I likely would never have made this thread.

 

[homeylova223]

Regarding your critique of the utility of college education, I would counter that it is not the purpose of universities to offer areas of study with practical use. Universities are places of learning, not trade schools.

I would say not entirely. For example many physics professor get funding from the DOD so they have to pursue research that is useful the for the military not necessarily something for the sake of learning. Also in the social sciences political scientist get funding from liberal or conservative think tanks. so they often conduct studies which favor conservative or liberal view point.

 

[homeylova223]

I do not want to say college is a scam, but there is no relationship between a lot of what they teach and the real world. Instead of colleges I wish we would bring back the old guilds of the 1700s. In the old guild a young man or woman would be an apprentice to an older person in an industry and learn useful skills, then they would have a career. I miss the old guilds.

 

[WWGD]

I do not want to say college is a scam, but there is no relationship between a lot of what they teach and the real world. Instead of colleges I wish we would bring back the old guilds of the 1700s. In the old guild a young man or woman would be an apprentice to an older person in an industry and learn useful skills, then they would have a career. I miss the old guilds.

Well, take the best you can get. The web and YouTube are the new guilds. And, again, the whole Stats and Programming thing as hedges against uncertainty of job market.

 

[symbolipoint]

I would say not entirely. For example many physics professor get funding from the DOD so they have to pursue research that is useful the for the military not necessarily something for the sake of learning. Also in the social sciences political scientist get funding from liberal or conservative think tanks. so they often conduct studies which favor conservative or liberal view point.

Where is the emoticon to indicate, "interesting"? Should the "wow" emoticon be chosen?

 

[symbolipoint]

I do not want to say college is a scam, but there is no relationship between a lot of what they teach and the real world. Instead of colleges I wish we would bring back the old guilds of the 1700s. In the old guild a young man or woman would be an apprentice to an older person in an industry and learn useful skills, then they would have a career. I miss the old guilds.

Better, change that part to say, "In addition to colleges and universities, I wish we would bring back the old guilds of the 1700's". Other possible adjustments may too be good.

 

[symbolipoint]

Well, take the best you can get. The web and YouTube are the new guilds. And, again, the whole Stats and Programming thing as hedges against uncertainty of job market.

NO NO NO. Not good enough. You need to put PEOPLE together with other PEOPLE. Hooking them to each other through technology alone will not give them "guilds".

 

[WWGD]

NO NO NO. Not good enough. You need to put PEOPLE together with other PEOPLE. Hooking them to each other through technology alone will not give them "guilds".

Fair-enough. How about meetups?

 

[symbolipoint]

Fair-enough. How about meetups?

The nice features about meetups is that initially the members find each other through the internet, and then they arrange to attend regularly scheduled (usually regular) in person all at one physical place. Once they meet in the real place, no technology gets in the way. This can be great for social and interpersonal interaction. Now, on to demonstrations, and training? Well maybe for some demonstrations, but actual TRAINING would still require other direct, live equipment and in a different physical setting.

 

[symbolipoint]

Fair-enough. How about meetups?

Let me add more to this:

Many districts are now limiting social gatherings to 10 members or less. One may guess that many meetups of 10 or fewer people, each wearing a mask, are possible and reasonable enough.

 

[WWGD]

Let me add more to this:

Many districts are now limiting social gatherings to 10 members or less. One may guess that many meetups of 10 or fewer people, each wearing a mask, are possible and reasonable enough.

Of course, I was referring to doing it during " Standard Settings" times and not during extreme situations.

 

[dpatnd]

Upon further reflection, I have come to the conclusion that I need a more decisive way of going about this choice. To this end, I will put into effect a policy I had considered at the start of the year: continuing in physics if and only if I achieved an A for both semesters of introductory physics. I earned an A in mechanics, and so we shall see if I can continue that record in E&M. As @Dr. Courtney said somewhere earlier in this thread, being excellent is a must. My ability to achieve A's in the introductory courses will, therefore, serve as a litmus test for my ability to be "excellent" in the long term, particularly as my current professor (who was my instructor last semester as well) has an A cutoff of 97.5%.

 

[jtbell]

my current professor (who was my instructor last semester as well) has an A cutoff of 97.5%.