Are Atheists Shaping UK School Curriculums?

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In summary: They mostly just talked about how everyone has a religion and that we should all be tolerant of each other. I don't think anything specific about atheism or belief systems was covered.
  • #71
WhoWee said:
Hans, please see my last post...the one preceding yours. I'm not suggesting any religious teachings in public schools.
If I'm not mistaken though, you are the one suggesting that moral values come from religion, specifically christian. You were the one that repeatedly cited the "10 commandments" as if non-christians had no moral values.
 
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  • #72
Evo said:
If I'm not mistaken though, you are the one suggesting that moral values come from religion, specifically christian. You were the one that repeatedly cited the "10 commandments" as if non-christians had no moral values.

Western moral values do originate from Christianity.
 
  • #73
drankin said:
Western moral values do originate from Christianity.

What about Western Moral values is so different from Eastern Morality? Murder is wrong? Theft is wrong? Adultery is wrong? You should respect your parents?

These are all common ideas in almost all parts of the world. Could you tell me anything that stands out as different other than the duty to convert?
 
  • #74
Ghost803 said:
What about Western Moral values is so different from Eastern Morality? Murder is wrong? Theft is wrong? Adultery is wrong? You should respect your parents?

These are all common ideas in almost all parts of the world. Could you tell me anything that stands out as different other than the duty to convert?

I'm not arguing about the commonalities between the East and the West. What "duty to convert" are you talking about?
 
  • #75
drankin said:
I'm not arguing about the commonalities between the East and the West. What "duty to convert" are you talking about?

Well if the bible is the source of Western Morality, isn't it the duty of the followers to convert the unbelievers and save them from eternal damnation?Also, could you explain how the bible is the source of Western Morality? Were all those in the western world, who did not proscribe to the Biblical view of morality, immoral by "Western" standards?
 
  • #76
Ghost803 said:
Well if the bible is the source of Western Morality, isn't it the duty of the followers to convert the unbelievers and save them from eternal damnation?


Also, could you explain how the bible is the source of Western Morality? Were all those in the western world, who did not proscribe to the Biblical view of morality, immoral by "Western" standards?

To be more specific, it would be Judeo-Christian as well as Greco-Roman culture that has the most influence on Western morals. As posted earlier, the Ten Commandments (from the bible), which came about approx 1600 BC has been a basis directly and indirectly to both Western law and morality for thousands of years. It is not necessary to proscribe to the religion in order to accept the morality that it shares. It is neither moral or immoral for someone who is a "Christian" to convert anyone. I've read the entire bible and have never seen this as a requirement for morality. Western standards of morality has been changing for thousands of years. The bible or Christianity does not define Western standards, Western society does.
 
  • #77
WhoWee said:
Moridin was the one that posted...again, that's the only person who can explain the exact meaning of the posted words...you would agree?

No, I would disagree.
 
  • #78
drankin said:
To be more specific, it would be Judeo-Christian as well as Greco-Roman culture that has the most influence on Western morals. As posted earlier, the Ten Commandments (from the bible), which came about approx 1600 BC has been a basis directly and indirectly to both Western law and morality for thousands of years. It is not necessary to proscribe to the religion in order to accept the morality that it shares. It is neither moral or immoral for someone who is a "Christian" to convert anyone. I've read the entire bible and have never seen this as a requirement for morality. Western standards of morality has been changing for thousands of years. The bible or Christianity does not define Western standards, Western society does.

Just curious, perhaps you could tell me what "Western morals" are? And how they differ from morality around the rest of the globe?
 
  • #79
Evo said:
If I'm not mistaken though, you are the one suggesting that moral values come from religion, specifically christian. You were the one that repeatedly cited the "10 commandments" as if non-christians had no moral values.

I'm NOT trying to say that non-Christians have no moral values. I also do NOT think religion (of any type) should be taught in public schools...but I also do not believe religion should be ridiculed or dismissed by teachers...just avoided.

This is my original post...
"The rules...10 Commandments...are the basis of our laws.
http://www.allabouttruth.org/10-commandments.htm

Off the top of my head...don't kill, don't cheat on spouse, don't steal, don't lie...all things I want to teach my kids."

My point was that some of the 10 Commandments are generally accepted.
 
  • #80
WhoWee said:
My point was that some of the 10 Commandments are generally accepted.
Even I (mr sarcastic) agree with that.
The objection to American's having the 10 commandments on public monuments is silly.
It's about as sensible as renaming the days because I don't believe in Tyr, Woden, Thor, Freya

Of course the 10 commandments (should really be the 7 commandments if you aren't one of the chosen people) were ripped off from the code of Hamurabi during the Babylonian exile - so really America's laws are based on Iraqis.
 
  • #81
mgb_phys said:
Of course the 10 commandments (should really be the 7 commandments if you aren't one of the chosen people) were ripped off from the code of Hamurabi during the Babylonian exile - so really America's laws are based on Iraqis.

Life truly does have a sense of humour! :smile:
 
  • #82
mgb_phys said:
Even I (mr sarcastic) agree with that.
The objection to American's having the 10 commandments on public monuments is silly.
It's about as sensible as renaming the days because I don't believe in Tyr, Woden, Thor, Freya

It isn't exactly the same thing. If you want the ten commandments as part of a monument to systems of laws throughout history, fine.

If you want a gigantic ten commandments display in a courthouse, sorry, no can do. There would be the perception that the US government is pushing one flavor of religion. It would also bring up questions as to whether you will receive a fair trial from the judge, when a giant sign in the front of the courthouse says "Thou shalt not have any gods before Me."

Besides, separation of church and state issues aside, a courtroom is supposed to be a house of law, not a house of religion. Only 3 of the 10 commandments are even illegal.

The naming of the days isn't listed in any holy books. There's a disconnect in your logic.
 
  • #83
Jack21222 said:
It isn't exactly the same thing. If you want the ten commandments as part of a monument to systems of laws throughout history, fine.

If you want a gigantic ten commandments display in a courthouse, sorry, no can do. There would be the perception that the US government is pushing one flavor of religion. It would also bring up questions as to whether you will receive a fair trial from the judge, when a giant sign in the front of the courthouse says "Thou shalt not have any gods before Me."

Besides, separation of church and state issues aside, a courtroom is supposed to be a house of law, not a house of religion. Only 3 of the 10 commandments are even illegal.

The naming of the days isn't listed in any holy books. There's a disconnect in your logic.

Where does a presidential inauguration that includes a prayer by a Christian pastor and ends with a (quite formal) "So help me G_d" fit into your reasoning? And how can there be no connection between the names of gods and holy books?

And what does any of this have to do with courthouses? :confused:
 
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  • #84
mgb_phys said:
Even I (mr sarcastic) agree with that.
The objection to American's having the 10 commandments on public monuments is silly.
It's about as sensible as renaming the days because I don't believe in Tyr, Woden, Thor, Freya

Of course the 10 commandments (should really be the 7 commandments if you aren't one of the chosen people) were ripped off from the code of Hamurabi during the Babylonian exile - so really America's laws are based on Iraqis.


I guess the point is you shouldn't disqualify/dismiss/disallow the content of the message because you don't like the source.
 
  • #85
WhoWee said:
I guess the point is you shouldn't disqualify/dismiss/disallow the content of the message because you don't like the source.

To be utterly pedantic, we can't be 100% sure that the "source" is the 10 Commandments as such, or if the 10 Commandments borrowed from existing social rules and norms of the time.

But I do understand what you're saying, I'm just being finicky :wink:
 
  • #86
mgb_phys said:
Even I (mr sarcastic) agree with that.
The objection to American's having the 10 commandments on public monuments is silly.
It's about as sensible as renaming the days because I don't believe in Tyr, Woden, Thor, Freya

Of course the 10 commandments (should really be the 7 commandments if you aren't one of the chosen people) were ripped off from the code of Hamurabi during the Babylonian exile - so really America's laws are based on Iraqis.

Not when the public monument specifically states that "you shall have no god before me".. To too many people, it seems like the government is endorsing the message of the thing.
 
  • #87
drankin said:
In the US, Christianity can only be "taught" at private schools.

I thought this thread was entitled "Atheists target UK schools." What relevance does any of this discussion of the US have to this thread?
 
  • #88
cristo said:
I thought this thread was entitled "Atheists target UK schools." What relevance does any of this discussion of the US have to this thread?

Why did you parse out one sentence that I posted and take it out of context? It belongs to a paragraph that is associated to the OP.
 
  • #89
drankin said:
Western moral values do originate from Christianity.

Yes many valid western moral values such as slavery, genocide, religious intolerance and so on originates from Christianity. You cannot have the cake and eat it too. Also not that the positive moral value that Christianity purports has existed prior to Christianity, therefore Christianity cannot be the origin of said moral values.
 
  • #90
drankin said:
Western moral values do originate from Christianity.

Religions don't create morals - they borrow them. Some of the those morals still stand because they are so vague that you can apply them to any time i.e. don't kill or don't kill innocents.
 
  • #91
rootX said:
Religions don't create morals - they borrow them. Some of the those morals still stand because they are so vague that you can apply them to any time i.e. don't kill or don't kill innocents.

That doesn't negate my point. As I posted later to be more specific, Judeo-Christian as well as Greco-Roman influences.

I also pointed out in that post that religion does not create the morals for a society, the society does.
 
  • #92
drankin said:
That doesn't negate my point. As I posted later to be more specific, Judeo-Christian as well as Greco-Roman influences.

I also pointed out in that post that religion does not create the morals for a society, the society does.

I missed that post. But I am sure that there could be a better word than "originate" - spread or help people adhere to those morals more easily.
 
  • #93
drankin said:
Western moral values do originate from Christianity.

I am fairly certain the native American Indians had similar values long before Europeans arrived...are they not considered "western" enough? :wink:
 
  • #94
drankin said:
Western moral values do originate from Christianity.
The commandments are Christian now ?
 
  • #95
BoomBoom said:
I am fairly certain the native American Indians had similar values long before Europeans arrived...are they not considered "western" enough? :wink:

Yep, they are Western enough.
 
  • #96
mgb_phys said:
The commandments are Christian now ?

Sure.
 
  • #98
WhoWee said:
If you BELIEVE in something...you stand and fight...as believers in the major religions have for thousands of years.

However, if your "position" is belief in NOTHING...you are only paying "lip service"...and expect someone else to defend your "position".

I'm sorry, could you please clarify?
 
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  • #99
WhoWee said:
If you BELIEVE in something...you stand and fight...as believers in the major religions have for thousands of years.

However, if your "position" is belief in NOTHING...you are only paying "lip service"...and expect someone else to defend your "position".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/5219687/Atheists-target-UK-schools.html

Atheism is not a belief in nothing, it is a lack of belief in gods. As a theist, you probably do not believe in unicorns, making you an aunicornist.
 
  • #100
WhoWee said:
If you BELIEVE in something...you stand and fight.
Willingness to fight for a belief is not a sign of the strength of that belief, but of its weakness.
 
  • #101
WhoWee said:
If you BELIEVE in something...you stand and fight...as believers in the major religions have for thousands of years.

And of course by "stand and fight", you mean murder and/or repress; but mostly and.

You seem to suggest that because your statement is true, that it is also advisable.
 
  • #102
WhoWee said:
If you BELIEVE in something...you stand and fight...as believers in the major religions have for thousands of years.

However, if your "position" is belief in NOTHING...you are only paying "lip service"...and expect someone else to defend your "position".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/5219687/Atheists-target-UK-schools.html

Yes, and they BELIEVE that religious dogma and blind faith is a poison to the minds of youth, and the victim can be a healthy critical thought process...so they stand and fight.
 
  • #103
I was shocked when my 5 year old nephews came home from school one time containing pamphlets explaining that God created everything. These pamphlets were being handed out to all students!

The pamphlets read something like this (literally):

Do you like flowers? (picture of pretty flower) GOD made flowers.
Do you like people? (picture of happy person) GOD made people.
etc...

It's bad enough that we allow elected officials and even presidents who embrace religion and try to use their power to channel their religious beliefs. I honestly don't know how a person can be trusted with any important information if they believe in God...it demonstrates a lack of ability for rational thought.
 
  • #104
This is the subject of the thread...please defend this.

"It will coincide with the first atheist summer camp for children that will teach that religious belief and doctrines can prevent ethical and moral behaviour.

The federation aims to encourage students to lobby their schools and local authorities over what is taught in RE lessons and to call for daily acts of collective worship to be scrapped. It wants the societies to hold talks and educational events to persuade students not to believe in God. "
 
  • #105
WhoWee said:
This is the subject of the thread...please defend this.

"It will coincide with the first atheist summer camp for children that will teach that religious belief and doctrines can prevent ethical and moral behaviour.

The federation aims to encourage students to lobby their schools and local authorities over what is taught in RE lessons and to call for daily acts of collective worship to be scrapped. It wants the societies to hold talks and educational events to persuade students not to believe in God. "

I see no reason to defend the Telegraph's mud slingging article.

I will however defend this: http://www.ahsstudents.org.uk/press/releases/3"
The AHS's actual goals.
 
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