Are 'Stand Your Ground' Laws Justified in Cases Like Trayvon Martin's Death?

[chemisttree]

He was on the phone with his girlfriend and told her so.

This is on the 911 call.

Have you read the transcript?

That transcript includes the now debunked and retracted comment added regarding the racial epithet. You should be more careful regarding the heresay you introduce into this discussion.

 

[Evo]

That transcript includes the now debunked and retracted comment added regarding the racial epithet. You should be more careful regarding the heresay you introduce into this discussion.

I wasn't the one that posted the article, so you should be more careful in accusing people. Also, I didn't repost it for what he said, I was pointing out what he was doing.

Also, Trayvon was defending himself. Zimmerman had no marks, bruises, or abrasions on his face. That is clear in pictures of him taken both the night of the incident and in folowing days. It apears he may have fallen backwards and hit his head.

Please post the retraction of the racial slur from CNN's website. I listened to the call, what he said what quite clear.

I checked the CNN site and there is no retraction listed with the original report.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/did-trayvon-martins-shooter-use-slur-in-911-tapes/

 

[chemisttree]

I wasn't the one that posted the article, so you should be more careful in accusing people. Also, I didn't repost it for what he said, I was pointing out what he was doing.

You posted the text and linked to it in Post #61. Accusing? No.

Also, Trayvon was defending himself. Zimmerman had no marks, bruises, or abrasions on his face. That is clear in pictures of him taken both the night of the incident and in folowing days. It apears he may have fallen backwards and hit his head.

The police report indicates otherwise unless you think that bleeding from the nose doesn't qualify as a mark on his face.

"While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."

Please post the retraction of the racial slur from CNN's website. I listened to the call, what he said what quite clear.

Ha ha! Good one! You actually believe that CNN posts its retractions on their website!

Here's the rest of the story.

The retraction was the subject of numerous news stories in the days after CNN retracted it.

 

[mheslep]

Also, Trayvon was defending himself.

How do you know who was defending himself? You have already stated that the point at which Zimmerman produced his weapon was unknown.

 

[mheslep]

... the calls indicate Trayvon was afraid of Zimmerman...

He was on the phone with his girlfriend and told her so. ...

Per ABC, the lawyer of the girlfriend, says that the girlfriend said:

..."He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T5bksatZ4pk

 

[Evo]

You linked to it in Post #61.

I reposted it from Mheslep's post #33.

Do you have a link to the retraction on CNN's website?

 

[Evo]

Per ABC, the lawyer of the girlfriend, says that the girlfriend said:



http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T5bksatZ4pk

Like I said, Trayvon was defending himself. IMO, based on this.

 

[mheslep]

Zimmerman had no marks, bruises, or abrasions on his face.

From the police report:

Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head. ...

http://mit.zenfs.com/102/2012/04/69081607-29132322.pdf

 

[chemisttree]

I reposted it from Mheslep's post #33.

So your issue was the difference between 'posting' and reposting? You're right Mheslep should be more careful about the link and the heresay introduced into the discussion as well but the offensive heresay was edited out in that post.

Do you have a link to the retraction on CNN's website?

Not that hard to find.

You probably think that isn't a retraction at all, right? Well, in the strictest sense it isn't one... which makes the whole thing that much more reprehensible.

 

[Evo]

So your issue was the difference between 'posting' and reposting? You're right Mheslep should be more careful about the link and the heresay introduced into the discussion as well but the offensive heresay was edited out in that post.

No, because I clicked on the link he posted and copied and pasted straight from it. It happens to be in the article's transcript. Neither of us was discussing the slur, so you were wrong in accusing us.

 

[chemisttree]

No, because I clicked on the link he posted and copied and pasted straight from it. It happens to be in the article's transcript. Neither of us was discussing the slur, so you were wrong in accusing us.

I believe that anything posted, especially if it is copied and pasted on this Forum, that supports someone's argument is a statement of fact unless commented upon otherwise. This case is extremely sensitive vis-a-vis its racial connotations so statements like "(racial slurs by the killer can be heard on the 911 tapes)", Post #10, or the comments added to the transcripts you linked to in Post #61 while an understandable mistake back on March 26 should certainly be interpreted as false on April 22 given CNN's backpedaling on April 4. I think we should be more mindful of the links we post including the text we copy verbatim especially if that information is of an inflammatory content. That would include the flawed 'analysis' of the 911 call by CNN or the doctored 911 call reported by NBC.

As to whether I'm accusing anyone of anything, I refer you to the P&WA guidelines referring to "counter-arguments to statements already made". I don't consider what I posted to be an accusation at all. Consider it a request to be more careful not to introduce inflammatory, false heresay into our discussion.

 

[Evo]

I believe that anything posted, especially if it is copied and pasted on this Forum, that supports someone's argument is a statement of fact unless commented upon otherwise. This case is extremely sensitive vis-a-vis its racial connotations so statements like "(racial slurs by the killer can be heard on the 911 tapes)", Post #10, or the comments added to the transcripts you linked to in Post #61 while an understandable mistake back on March 26 should certainly be interpreted as false on April 22 given CNN's backpedaling on April 4. I think we should be more mindful of the links we post including the text we copy verbatim especially if that information is of an inflammatory content. That would include the flawed 'analysis' of the 911 call by CNN or the doctored 911 call reported by NBC.

As to whether I'm accusing anyone of anything, I refer you to the P&WA guidelines referring to "counter-arguments to statements already made". I don't consider what I posted to be an accusation at all. Consider it a request to be more careful not to introduce inflammatory, false heresay into our discussion.

Again, I was only pointing out zimmerman's physical pursuit from the 911 call. Nothing else was mentioned by me. Everytime I refer to an article posted, it would be absolutely ludicrous for me, or anyone else, to go searching every line of the article to see if something they are not even referring to may have changed. In the future, please pay attention to what is being referred to so that you do not become confused. It is fine if while reading the part referred to that if you find something else NOT referred to that you believe is wrong, point it out.

Enough derailing the thread over your misunderstanding of what was being referred to.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Zimmerman had no marks, bruises, or abrasions on his face.

From the police report:

Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head. ...

http://mit.zenfs.com/102/2012/04/69081607-29132322.pdf

There are claims that Zimmerman was hit in the face. Zimmerman and/or his lawyer even claimed that his nose had been broken. A bloody nose by itself is rather scant evidence of such. One would generally expect bruising at the least unless it was only a single weak jab to the nose. One's nose may bleed from a head trauma. Considering the seemingly minor injuries sustained by Zimmerman it would seem quite possible that he was shoved, fell back, and hit his head on the ground. Maybe Martin even took a swing, only just connected with Zimmerman's nose, and Zimmerman fell and hit his head while attempting to pull back from the swing. Either way the evidence that we have seen of Zimmerman's injuries do not appear to support the idea that someone was on top of him beating him about the face and smashing his head into the ground.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet but the BBC has made available the affidavit of two investigators. It's not a complete accounting of the events but something that I found interesting and hadn't heard before is that the screams for help heard on the recordings of neighbours calls to the police (if you haven't listened to them they were available from various places online) have been identified by Mrs Martin as the voice of her son.

 

[ThinkToday]

The question is: is it reasonable for GZ to have chased TM in the first place? He had no reasonable basis to suppose that a crime had been committed by TM. So what the heck was he chasing him for - how would he be helping the police by finding out where he was going?

The situation would've had a much different complexion if GZ had seen TM taking something illegally (and it had been found on TM's body to corroborate his account). Then at least GZ could've said what you're saying - he'd been sure TM had been committing a crime, and had been chasing him to make sure he could point him out to the police later. TM turned on him because he didn't want to go down for the crime, but GZ stood his ground and defended himself with a gun. That probably would've gone down OK for GZ, because an average jury's sympathies generally tend to go against a person who's committed a crime, and generally for a person who seeks to bring him to justice.

But that's NOT what happened. GZ had no good reason to be chasing TM, and the police had explicitly told him he didn't need to do that. Essentially, even if TM had stopped running and had tackled GZ, it could easily be argued that TM had been standing his ground by not continuing to run away from GZ (the aggressor). Even if GZ's legal counsel tried to argue that GZ was then entitled to stand his own ground and "defend" himself with his firearm, there's the problem that it was GZ that caused the situation in the first place!

I believe in the stand your ground laws. No one should have to flee and leave their neighbor's safety, or their home, car, etc. possessions to a thief. I do believe there are questions about who was standing their ground. You argue GZ should not have followed TM, and I’d disagree. GZ, whether as part of a neighborhood watch or a concerned citizen, he should be able to watch and alert police to the presence of a hooded stranger at night moving between buildings in his gated community. While TM had every right to be in the gated community, he was a stranger. The community had several break-ins. I don’t see a problem with GZ following (NOT CONFRONTING) the stranger. If “TM” had been a stalker looking to rob, rape, kidnap, or kill someone, the people would be talking about how brave GZ was for watching the villain while police were on the way. Likewise, if “TM” had just raped or killed someone, people would be talking about how lucky GZ was to have had stand your ground laws that allowed him to protect himself.

Generally, IMO, the aggressor is the person that throws the first punch. I think it’s a safe bet that TM didn’t hit GZ, breaking his nose and causing the cuts on the back of GZ’s head, after he was shot. I think it’s unlikely that TM confronted GZ with his gun drawn. I think GZ’s account is the most plausible, which is not to say correct.

In the end, I suspect we’ll find out it went something like GZ followed TM for a good reason. TM misunderstood GZ following him and TM confronted GZ, probably pissed off. I suspect if GZ had said he was part of a neighborhood watch, that would have set TM at ease, or if TM had said we was visiting is family in the gated community, that would have set GZ at ease. Rather than talking, I suspect someone started swinging. I believe the 3” taller TM caused sufficient injuries to 20 lb heavier ZG that ZG felt endangered and he shot TM. I’ve had my noise broken before, and if you’ve had your noise broken before, you know your vision temporarily goes to crap, eyes water, etc. I can see where being unable to see and still getting pummeled would make him fearful for his life. Perhaps the real lesson is for people to learn to talk.

 

[Evo]

I believe in the stand your ground laws. No one should have to flee and leave their neighbor's safety, or their home, car, etc. possessions to a thief. I do believe there are questions about who was standing their ground. You argue GZ should not have followed TM, and I’d disagree. GZ, whether as part of a neighborhood watch or a concerned citizen, he should be able to watch and alert police to the presence of a hooded stranger at night moving between buildings in his gated community. While TM had every right to be in the gated community, he was a stranger. The community had several break-ins. I don’t see a problem with GZ following (NOT CONFRONTING) the stranger. If “TM” had been a stalker looking to rob, rape, kidnap, or kill someone, the people would be talking about how brave GZ was for watching the villain while police were on the way. Likewise, if “TM” had just raped or killed someone, people would be talking about how lucky GZ was to have had stand your ground laws that allowed him to protect himself.

But none of these things happened. Zimmerman appears to be a highly paranoid self appointed vigilante. First following, then chasing Trayvon was wrong. This was something for the police to handle. Zimmerman wasn't even officially part of the neighborhood watch IIRC. Zimmerman provoked an altercation with Trayvon, that much we do know. IMO.

 

[chemisttree]

Another caffeine-related shooting. I tell you, a teenager hopped up on skittles and caffeine is a recipe for disaster!

 

[Oltz]

But none of these things happened. Zimmerman appears to be a highly paranoid self appointed vigilante. First following, then chasing Trayvon was wrong. This was something for the police to handle. Zimmerman wasn't even officially part of the neighborhood watch IIRC. Zimmerman provoked an altercation with Trayvon, that much we do know. IMO.

At what point does following become chasing?

Last evening I was coming home from work and got cut off at an intersection by somebody changing lanes and turning from the wrong lane. No worries I am a low stress person. It turns out that we are heading in the same direction and make several turns the same all with me following the other car. We end up turning onto a residential street and driving along the car infront of me slams on its breaks and pulls over. I also stop and after a few seconds pull over and get out of my car and walk up to her car. She has her phone in one hand and pepper spray in the other.

I say ma'am you are blocking my drive way I am sorry if you were scarred but I would like to pull into my home.

It turns out she lives 5 or 6 houses up from me and thought I had been chasing her the entire way to her home.

I find it interesting that in this thread the people who are neutral to protective of GZ say followed/ing and we will see what happens in court. The people protective of Trayvon say chased/hunted and are certain GZ is guilty of murder.

Mis understandings are easy and can be dangerous the best way to avoid them is to be upfront with people. Being followed never gives you the right to attack anyone as far as I know. Getting assaulted does give you the right to fight back and I am pretty sure the assault happened before the gun shots. I do not know what was said before the confrontation started.

I do know that a middle aged slighlty over weight man is unlikley to be able to "chase down" a 17 year old who is fit and running scared. At some point Trayvon made the choice to stop fleeing and confront the man following/chasing him and decided to make it physical for reasons we do not know.

The part of this case that annoys me is the need for the media and parts of our government to attempt to make this political and use it to gain an advantage. No matter what happens a young man is dead and another man needs to live with his actions for the rest of his life this is not a political game.

 

[ThinkToday]

But none of these things happened. Zimmerman appears to be a highly paranoid self appointed vigilante. First following, then chasing Trayvon was wrong. This was something for the police to handle. Zimmerman wasn't even officially part of the neighborhood watch IIRC. Zimmerman provoked an altercation with Trayvon, that much we do know. IMO.

I find your comment about his personality to be harsh and difficult to substantiate, given news reports such as the one below. Likewise, I find your comment about GZ not being officially part of the neighborhood watch puzzling, given every news account stating he was. For example, from the Orlando Sentinel,"It's unclear how Zimmerman was employed when he encountered Trayvon Martin on Feb. 26, but he took his role as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer very seriously. Police say Zimmerman had called to report suspicious people on multiple occasions, just as he did when he saw Trayvon. In the past 15 months, he made 46 calls to Sanford police, according to records."

I don't think being zealous about being part of a neighborhood watch equates to "highly paranoid self appointed vigilante".

“Zimmerman provoked an altercation with Trayvon, that much we do know. “ And we know that how? Just exactly how do we know who threw the first punch?

 

[Office_Shredder]

Zimmerman was officially acting in the capacity of Neighborhood Watchperson. There wasn't an organization because at the homeowner's association meeting he was the only person who volunteered for it, so nobody else was involved. But that's hardly his fault, it was understood and accepted by the general community that he was running a watch organization in an official capacity. This website
http://www.condoandhoalawgroup.com/news/neighborhood-watch-programs-homeowners-associations/
does a good job explaining how they screwed it up but that's different from such a position never existing

I don't find Martin's mother saying that the screams on the phone sound like her son particularly convincing. Identification of this sort is never particularly reliable IMO and do you really think his mother is going to say "No that's definitely Zimmerman screaming, my son must have been beating him up"

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Personally I don't think it is fair to say that an aggressor in a situation must be the one who instigates physical confrontation. If Alice blocks Bob's path and verbally threatens him, instructing him to do follow her into an alley or she will attack him a strong argument could be made in defence of Bob striking first. The nature of his strike will later be called into question for if it was A) a reasonable decision based on the threat and B) a reasonable response to the threat in question.

Also members may want to review my post above in which the affidavit of two investigators claims that the screams heard in the back ground of various calls to the police (available here) are that of Trayvon Martin shouting for help.

 

[Evo]

At what point does following become chasing?

Again, it's on the 911 call. Trayvon decided to run away from Zimmerman because he was frightened of him and zimmerman began chasing after him.

Seriously, if people aren't going to bother reading this thread or knowing basic facts already published before posting here, the thread will be closed. Constantly repeating this information has become nonsensical.

 

[Evo]

“Zimmerman provoked an altercation with Trayvon, that much we do know. “ And we know that how? Just exactly how do we know who threw the first punch?

Again, it's in the 911 call. He chased after Trayvon after Trayvon tried to get away from Zimmerman. That is how we know that Zimmerman provoked the confrontation, IMO. If Zimmerman would have not chased Trayvon, that boy would be alive today, IMO. I didn't say anything about throwing punches, so I don't know where you got that.

This thread has been repeating the same things over and over. People aren't reading prior posts. Until the case goes to trial, the subject is closed.