Arizona Immigration Law: Examining the Debate

[TheStatutoryApe]

I just want to state that YES you do have to be in violation of a law to be questioned.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/phoenixmetro/central/story/Governor-signs-several-changes-to-Arizona/qNpxW7Jonkm9shejhnkiSQ.cspx
They have already revised the law for the very reason that this was not clear in its wording.

You are correct. If we are pulled over by police, and you don't have your id, you can be arrested in some states (not here in arizona thankfully) and/or ticketed. My observation is that why are people freaking out over this. It was always required that you carry your id. For us all. This is just the consiquences that if you disregard current laws, you will actually have some action taken instead of getting away with it. Which when you live in Tucson you see A LOT! My family's from puerto rico and they had to work really hard to get here. Legally. So why should they work hard when others get in with no hassle at all? Where's the fairness in that. :)

You are not legally required to present ID to a police officer when ever asked. You are required to show a driver's license to a police officer if you are pulled over because you are operating an automobile and must show that you are licensed to do so.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

I wonder how many people emerge from sobriety checkpoints with a ticket for something OTHER than DUI - tail light, seat belt, insurance card, suspensions or fines?

That is a good point, another motivation for them to run the checks! I should see if the data exists, if I find it I will post.

 

[cronxeh]

Sorry, Statutory, but I feel this need to argue one particular point...

My view has always been that equal protection of the law applies to intent, not result. If it can be proven that the AZ police really did act fairly to all races and didn't engage in racial profiling, why on Earth would we strike down the law anyway based on the idea of "if more Hispanics are deported, regardless of police fairness, this law must go"?

Also, pass the marshmallows. I smell a firestorm starting in Arizona.

The police should engage in racial profiling. If you are a student of mathematical sciences why on Earth would you disregard the 'DUH!' obvious sign that someone has a higher likelihood of being a criminal? Statistically speaking 5% of all black males are incarcerated compared to 0.6% of white males. My taxes are not paying them to sit there looking at me - I know I'm not breaking the law. I want police to go after the criminals who are breaking the law, and we already know who these people are, what they look like, where they reside, and what kind of criminal activities they engage in.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/

Until minorities stop breaking the law, there will be racial tensions in the US, and as long as the law is written by the majority, this is going to be the United States and not Somalia.

 

[mgb_phys]

If you are a student of mathematical sciences why on Earth would you disregard the 'DUH!' obvious sign that someone has a higher likelihood of being a criminal? ... My taxes are not paying them to sit there looking at me - I know I'm not breaking the law. I want police to go after the criminals who are breaking the law, and we already know who these people are, what they look like, where they reside, and what kind of criminal activities they engage in.

Exactly - mathematically why arrest people for holding up a convenience store when bankers steal billions?
Wouldn't it be more cost effective for police to be on Wall st?
It's just as easy to spot the crooks - they are the ones wearing the suits, search them for BMW keys and that's probable cause.

 

[cronxeh]

Exactly - mathematically why arrest people for holding up a convenience store when bankers steal billions?
Wouldn't it be more cost effective for police to be on Wall st?
It's just as easy to spot the crooks - they are the ones wearing the suits, search them for BMW keys and that's probable cause.

so its not racial profiling when its NBA and NFL when we reward the posive attributes by drafting more blacks than whites, but it is when we punish the negative?

Oh and another thing, has it ever occurred to you that the reason a lot of corporate crime goes unnoticed is because the regulators in the government are employed because of affirmitive action and not merit?

 

[mgb_phys]

You can arrest black bankers as well.

I just think that if you had mathematially based policing, then a helicopter and a SWAT team to nail a guy that held up a convenience store for $50 might not have the same ROI as kicking in a few doors in the Hamptons.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Until minorities stop breaking the law, there will be racial tensions in the US, and as long as the law is written by the majority, this is going to be the United States and not Somalia

One might also make the case that until minorities are not automatically labeled as criminals racial tensions will continue to exist in the US.

so its not racial profiling when its NBA and NFL when we reward the posive attributes by drafting more blacks than whites, but it is when we punish the negative?

The cops don't round up black kids in south central to go play ball yo.

Oh and another thing, has it ever occurred to you that the reason a lot of corporate crime goes unnoticed is because the regulators in the government are employed because of affirmitive action and not merit?

Not really, considering that corporate crime was far more prevalent and turned a blind eye on before the notion of affirmative action ever even existed.

 

[Jack21222]

It was always required that you carry your id. For us all.

Can you post a source for this? I believe you are mistaken. It is my understanding that carrying around an ID is not required by any law.

Besides, this law, the way I understand it, requires to carry around more than just an ID, it requires carrying around proof that you're in the country illegally.

I have no clue where my birth certificate is, and I damn sure don't carry it around with me.

 

[mgb_phys]

I have no clue where my birth certificate is, and I damn sure don't carry it around with me.

Better get a passport then !

Have any of the usual conspiracy enthusiasts noticed that US just conveniently created a cheap national ID card that fits in your wallet ?

 

[cronxeh]

You can arrest black bankers as well.

I just think that if you had mathematially based policing, then a helicopter and a SWAT team to nail a guy that held up a convenience store for $50 might not have the same ROI as kicking in a few doors in the Hamptons.

All crime is crime, from robbery to crossing the border illegally, and should be prosecuted with extreme prejudice. If I am being robbed by taxes for a job that is not done, then either fire the people doing the job or stop taxing me. The alternative is paying the feds for not doing anything all day because we are afraid to upset the minorities. Who are these minorities? The same people who protest, aid and abet the criminal element and raise such criminal element.

So you have mexican drug gangs importing the weed, and local blacks distributing the stuff to local users who also happen to be living on welfare. Sounds familiar yet?

 

[WhoWee]

Is a lack of racial and ethnic diversity assumed in this discussion? Is the AZ police population predominately white male heterosexual (AND biased)?

 

[cronxeh]

Oh and another thing, has it ever occurred to you that the reason a lot of corporate crime goes unnoticed is because the regulators in the government are employed because of affirmitive action and not merit?

OK I must recant my earlier statement regarding employment of minorities in the federal government. I got the statistics, and the breakdown is as follows:

Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) as of Sept 30 2006 had total of 3596 employees of which 1160 (32.3%) were minorities. that's 680 (18.9%) blacks, 172 (4.8%) hispanics, 297 (8.3%) asians, and 2436 (67.7%) whites.

I think we've carried this conversation into the wrong territory and personal believes or disbelieves, whether factual or anecdotal have gotten into the mix. I'm sorry for that.

Lets return to the talk at hand - Arizona and immigration law. I don't see a solution to this problem to be honest. There is just no way to close down 600 miles of border and stop the Mexican citizens from coming to US in search of a better life. It is also unfair to burden the rest of the American population, whether white black or purple, by hiring the illegal immigrants instead of hiring the local citizens and paying them higher salary and all the commensurate benefits. If you enforce the law by prosecuting the employers then you force the Mexican illegal immigrants to commit crime in order to survive, backing them against the corner. This is not the solution. Allowing those who are already here is not practical since there are millions here, and that would only reinforce the convictions of those who cross the border illegally.

 

[mheslep]

There is just no way to close down 600 miles of border and stop the Mexican citizens from coming to US in search of a better life.

For all practical purposes yes there is. It is not possible to stop every person nor is that necessary; it is certainly possible to stop one million per year. One million people can not all scale a high double fence with a ladder without notice. The US helps maintain a border between N and S Korea against a one million man army and it can maintain the Mexican border as well.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

OK I must recant my earlier statement regarding employment of minorities in the federal government. I got the statistics, and the breakdown is as follows:

Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) as of Sept 30 2006 had total of 3596 employees of which 1160 (32.3%) were minorities. that's 680 (18.9%) blacks, 172 (4.8%) hispanics, 297 (8.3%) asians, and 2436 (67.7%) whites.

I think we've carried this conversation into the wrong territory and personal believes or disbelieves, whether factual or anecdotal have gotten into the mix. I'm sorry for that.

Lets return to the talk at hand - Arizona and immigration law. I don't see a solution to this problem to be honest. There is just no way to close down 600 miles of border and stop the Mexican citizens from coming to US in search of a better life. It is also unfair to burden the rest of the American population, whether white black or purple, by hiring the illegal immigrants instead of hiring the local citizens and paying them higher salary and all the commensurate benefits. If you enforce the law by prosecuting the employers then you force the Mexican illegal immigrants to commit crime in order to survive, backing them against the corner. This is not the solution. Allowing those who are already here is not practical since there are millions here, and that would only reinforce the convictions of those who cross the border illegally.

There is an obvious solution, which is to divert resources from a meaningless border fence which is a losing game, and make the penalties for employing people who immigrated illegally prohibitive. Enforce that with extreme prejudice, and profile using finances instead of race. To why it cannot be done, this full racial profiling, is that it is not legal. It is not that crimes cannot be nearly eliminated, but you must choose what to sacrifice to achieve this. If the penalty for driving drunk was summary execution, I imagine this crime would plummet. It is easy to SAY "all crimes are equal", but they are not. There are property crimes, and crimes against persons, murder, and rape, and economic exploitation.

Doesn't your math tell you that one Bernie Madoff does more damage than dozens of bank robbers? Enron's collapse and Lehmen Brothers, the problems with CitiBank and Goldman Sachs, this does more damage than every bank robber and convenience store hood in all time! Enforce bank robberies, because if you do not, it becomes a crime worth doing. You protect convenience stores because so often it can end in violence, and the effect on a community is strong.

To this:

If you enforce the law by prosecuting the employers then you force the Mexican illegal immigrants to commit crime in order to survive, backing them against the corner. This is not the solution.

Removing the incentive will not work? You believe that 1 illegal that cannot get work under the table = 1 criminal?! This is an outrageous claim, and I would like citations. There are other places one can move to, and you can commit crime in your home country. Either way, this is not something may just say and others will believe.

I hesitate to quote Wikipedia, but this is well sourced. Here is the link, and two relevant highlights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Here is a bit which shows the poor enforcement in the workplace:

For decades, immigration authorities have alerted ("no-match-letters")[59] employers of mismatches between reported employees' Social Security cards and the actual names of the card holders. On September 1, 2007, a federal judge halted this practice of alerting employers of card mismatches.[60]

Illegal hiring has not been prosecuted aggressively in recent years: between 1999 and 2003, according to The Washington Post, “work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service.[61] Major employers of illegal immigrants have included:

Wal-Mart. In 2005, Wal-Mart agreed to pay $11 million to settle a federal investigation that found hundreds of illegal immigrants were hired by Wal-Mart's cleaning contractors.[62]
Swift & Co.. In December 2006, in the largest such crackdown in American history, U.S. federal immigration authorities raided Swift & Co. meat-processing plants in six U.S. states, arresting about 1,300 illegal immigrant employees.[63]
Tyson Foods. This company has also been accused of actively importing illegal labor for its chicken packing plants; however, the jury acquitted the company after evidence was presented that Tyson went beyond mandated government requirements in demanding documentation for its employees.[64]

According to Edmonton and Smith in The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration, "it is difficult to draw any strong conclusions on the association between immigration and crime".[58] Cities with large immigrant populations showed larger reductions in property and violent crime than cities without large immigrant populations.[113] Almost all of what is known about immigration and crime is from information on those in prison. Incarceration rates do not necessarily reflect differences in current crime rates.[58] A few of the other reasons also cited for why the extent of illegal immigrants' criminal activities is unknown are as follows:

For many minor crimes, especially crimes involving juveniles, those who are apprehended are not arrested. Only a fraction of those who are arrested are ever brought to the courts for disposition.[58]
Many illegal immigrants who are apprehended by Border Patrol agents are voluntarily returned to their home countries and are not ordinarily tabulated in national crime statistics. If immigrants, whether illegal or legal, are apprehended entering the United States while committing a crime, they are usually charged under federal statutes and, if convicted, are sent to federal prisons. Throughout this entire process, immigrants may have a chance of deportation, or of sentencing that is different from that for a native-born person.[58]
We lack comprehensive information on whether arrested or jailed immigrants are illegal immigrants, nonimmigrants, or legal immigrants. Such information can be difficult to collect because immigrants may have a reason to provide false statements (if they reply that they are an illegal immigrant, they can be deported, for instance). The verification of the data is troublesome because it requires matching INS records with individuals who often lack documentation or present false documents.[58]
Noncitizens may have had fewer years residing in the United States than citizens, and thus less time in which to commit crimes and be apprehended.[58]
In 1999, law enforcement activities involving unauthorized immigrants in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas cost a combined total of more than $108 million. This cost did not include activities related to border enforcement. In San Diego County, the expense (over $50 million) was nine percent of the total county's budget for law enforcement that year.[114]

A study by the Public Policy Institute of California, found that, "cities with large immigrant populations showed larger reductions in property and violent crime than cities without large immigrant populations" but adds, "As with most studies, we do not have ideal data. This lack of data restricts the questions we will be able to answer. In particular, we cannot focus on the undocumented population explicitly".[115]

A study published by the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas has found that while property-related crime rates have not been affected by increased immigration (both legal and illegal), in border counties there is a significant positive correlation between illegal immigration and violent crime, most likely due to extensive smuggling activity along the border.[116]

Another study, by the immigrant-advocacy group, Immigration Policy Center, based on U.S. Census Bureau data, found that large increases in illegal immigration do not result in a rise in crime[117]

On August 6, 2008, an audit done by agents of Immigration and Customs Enforcement found that 137 of the 637 jail inmates in the Lake County, Illinois jail were illegal immigrants. According to Lake County sheriff Mark Curran, illegal immigrants were charged with half of the 14 murders in the county.[118]

Quite telling. This is an unsolved question, and there is evidence that in areas that are turbulent there is violence. The issue of smuggling is an issue of an appetite for drugs on this side, and money and guns on the other. Smuggling is a crime indipendant of illegal immigration, and outside of this the numbers are not clear. How do you draw your absolute conclusions?

 

[cronxeh]

yeah, no. Its only 160 miles long and they have minefields. You try mining a border and see how many hippies protest

 

[skeptic2]

Better get a passport then !

Have any of the usual conspiracy enthusiasts noticed that US just conveniently created a cheap national ID card that fits in your wallet ?

I seems to me the Arizona Immigration Law creates a presumption of guilt and forces the people that are stopped to prove their innocence. It is the lack of evidence of innocence that results their arrest rather than evidence of guilt. Is this the direction we want our legal system to go?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I got a real kick out of the Congressional candidate who rode an elephant across the Rio Grande, followed by a mariachi band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diwJHN9gUrY

The only official concern was that the elephant might have ticks.

 

[Char. Limit]

Is a lack of racial and ethnic diversity assumed in this discussion? Is the AZ police population predominately white male heterosexual (AND biased)?

Well, in the U.S., it's commonly assumed that if you are the first three (white, male, and heterosexual), you are also the last (biased). Especially if you are white, male, heterosexual, and Christian.

But hey, we're the majority, so it's OK for us to be hated, right?... right?

No, it's not. But good luck telling people that.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Well, in the U.S., it's commonly assumed that if you are the first three (white, male, and heterosexual), you are also the last (biased). Especially if you are white, male, heterosexual, and Christian.

But hey, we're the majority, so it's OK for us to be hated, right?... right?

No, it's not. But good luck telling people that.

Evangelical white, male heterosexual Christians are very loud, like Islamic fundamentalists or any other fundamentalist group. They have political power, and they have painted that description with a broad brush. This is what happens when a group enjoys special treatment compared to others for centuries, and that structure begins to collapse. It is life, but it's also wrong to hate such people. Fear them perhaps, for their mindless conviction that they are right, and the rest of us are bound for hell, but not hate.

Oh yes, what is it about these evangelical pastors that they keep turning out to be gay, closeted, and hateful themselves? The Daily Show last night was hilarious with that "Family Research Council" man with a "renboy". I laughed so hard I had tears coming out of my eyes. If you are gay, be gay, don't hate yourself and others for you cannot handle this.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

I got a real kick out of the Congressional candidate who rode an elephant across the Rio Grande, followed by a mariachi band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diwJHN9gUrY

The only official concern was that the elephant might have ticks.

Oh my lord! I find this funny, but I don't think I understand the motivation. I do understand fearing ticks however, they carry such terrible disease, and they bury their heads in your flesh to feed. Disgusting things. The Mariachi band (I had to look that up), I wonder if this was self-satire?!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh my lord! I find this funny, but I don't think I understand the motivation. I do understand fearing ticks however, they carry such terrible disease, and they bury their heads in your flesh to feed. Disgusting things. The Mariachi band (I had to look that up), I wonder if this was self-satire?!

The point was anyone can cross the border [including terrorists carrying nuclear materials, or an elephant]. Our border security is a joke. This is why I saw the so-called war on terrorism as a joke. We worry about no-fly lists and talk about surrending our Constitutional protections for safety, while millions of people enter the country illegally with no controls.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

The point was anyone can cross the border [including terrorists carrying nuclear materials, or an elephant]. Our border security is a joke.

I see, that is a very graphic demonstration all right.

 

[mheslep]

yeah, no. Its only 160 miles long and they have minefields. You try mining a border and see how many hippies protest

Yes Korea is different. They also speak Korean, but that's not relevant either to the issue of a physical border closing.

If you want to talk about the politics of the closing the border, talk about the politics. But don't conflate the political roadblocks with the technical, as it is ridiculous to say that the United States can not substantially, if not completely, stop the illegal alien flow at the border. The US already does so in San Diego and parts of Texas. It is a matter of will.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Yes Korea is different. They also speak Korean, but that's not relevant either to the issue of a physical border closing.

If you want to talk about the politics of the closing the border, talk about the politics. But don't conflate the political roadblocks with the technical, as it is ridiculous to say that the United States can not substantially, if not completely, stop the illegal alien flow at the border. The US already does so in San Diego and parts of Texas. It is a matter of will.

It's not worth it in my view, when cheaper and more effective means are available. Better the Arizona law than wasting billions on a human fence, I think. Remember also, that NK can overrun the positions of the DMZ if they choose, even though they would lose in the long haul. Same issue with India overrunning Pakistan at the LOC, and that has led in part to nuclear tensions. This is not a model to be admired.

 

[edward]

DHS tried a high tech virtual fence. Boeing wasted over a billion dollars before the project was declared a failure.



A lot has changed in the pst year. Smugglers are making money off of both people and drugs. They are now carrying weapons.

 

[mheslep]

DHS tried a high tech virtual fence. [...]

They should build a fence, fence. A 12-15' double fence is all that is needed.

http://vivirlatino.com/i/2008/09/border-fence.jpg

 

[IcedEcliptic]

DHS tried a high tech virtual fence. Boeing wasted over a billion dollars before the project was declared a failure.



A lot has changed in the pst year. Smugglers are making money off of both people and drugs. They are now carrying weapons.

Drugs for American appetites, and guns from the US. Smugglers meet a demand, and they do not create one very effectively. In history, fighting a war on smuggling and black markets fails, with far more draconian measures than the USA or Arizona would ever consider (Roman Decimation for instance). It is not fair to conflate illegal immigrants in general, with a criminal subset, or a these so called "mules" with people running the show. It is hard enough for Israel to keep Palestinians in line with a wall and an army, and the world is not in love with them for it. America stands for something better than partitioning, even if it is international and not intranational. If not Mexicans, then Columbians, if not Columbians, then Albanians, or Armenians, or Russians, or Italians, or Irish, and so forth. Where the demand exists for drugs, and money is to be be made, smuggling can only ever change hands.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

They should build a fence, fence. A 12-15' double fence is all that is needed.

http://vivirlatino.com/i/2008/09/border-fence.jpg

40-50 yards wide, two trenches, a road, fencing, all monitored, for 600+ miles to protect you from the scaaaary Mexicans? What a waste of money and resources, and a clever way to rapidly teach them how to build better tunnels, as in Korea and Israel.

 

[mgb_phys]

40-50 yards wide, two trenches, a road, fencing, all monitored, for 600+ miles to protect you from the scaaaary Mexicans?

Plus who is going to build it if you don't have any Mexicans?

You could always call in the experts, but it's going to be expensive paying Germans even at the current $:euro

 

[Meghan222]

You are not legally required to present ID to a police officer when ever asked. You are required to show a driver's license to a police officer if you are pulled over because you are operating an automobile and must show that you are licensed to do so.[/QUOTE]

Depends on the state. And most states if you are violating any laws they can ask you for identification. And that was my point, you have to be breaking a law. I don't know about you but I was taught that I should have it no matter what anyway. Kind of a just in case senerio.

 

[Meghan222]

Plus who is going to build it if you don't have any Mexicans?

You could always call in the experts, but it's going to be expensive paying Germans even at the current $:euro

ARE YOU F***ing kidding me? Who would build it? Lemme see how about the thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of construction workers (legal) that are out of a job right now. Pretty sure they would be glad to do it. You are truly kidding yourself if you believe that illegals are doing jobs no one else would do. Our economy is in the pooper and I am 100% positive that LEGAL citizens would do any of those jobs. Have you ever watched the show dirty jobs? Are they all illegals?? Didn't think so.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Plus who is going to build it if you don't have any Mexicans?

You could always call in the experts, but it's going to be expensive paying Germans even at the current $:euro

Heh, I laughed at this, thank you. Maybe if we wait for the euro to hit bumpier roads, we could have the Germans do their magic and build maglev and high speed wheel-on-track rail for the US! Now THAT is a smart investment.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

ARE YOU F***ing kidding me? Who would build it? Lemme see how about the thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of construction workers (legal) that are out of a job right now. Pretty sure they would be glad to do it. You are truly kidding yourself if you believe that illegals are doing jobs no one else would do. Our economy is in the pooper and I am 100% positive that LEGAL citizens would do any of those jobs. Have you ever watched the show dirty jobs? Are they all illegals?? Didn't think so.

I think he was joking, angry man.

 

[Meghan222]

Drugs for American appetites, and guns from the US. Smugglers meet a demand, and they do not create one very effectively. In history, fighting a war on smuggling and black markets fails, with far more draconian measures than the USA or Arizona would ever consider (Roman Decimation for instance). It is not fair to conflate illegal immigrants in general, with a criminal subset, or a these so called "mules" with people running the show. It is hard enough for Israel to keep Palestinians in line with a wall and an army, and the world is not in love with them for it. America stands for something better than partitioning, even if it is international and not intranational. If not Mexicans, then Columbians, if not Columbians, then Albanians, or Armenians, or Russians, or Italians, or Irish, and so forth. Where the demand exists for drugs, and money is to be be made, smuggling can only ever change hands.

Maybe though if we make it harder, uphold our current laws, and have a president that doesn't appologize for us, maybe then it will die down a bit. Besides if they have a harder time getting across, and I hate to say this, they happen to die (smugglers I mean not people coming here for work) then it's called weeding out the herd. Sorry if that sounds cold, but you don't live here do you? See it everyday like I do.

 

[Meghan222]

I think he was joking, angry man.

I hope so. And I am an angry chick not a dude. Look this is an issue that I take pretty personally (obviously) both because my family legally immigrated here from puerto rico, and illegals make it hard on us all, and because I have to see it everyday. It's pretty bad here. And no one seems to get that.