Atheism meant the belief of no god

[Orefa]

man! this is difficult!

It's only difficult if you try to grasp too much. Maybe you are reading more into it that what is there. I never spoke of a big bearded guy or a sexy gal either. This is why my little "proof" works for me, I don't try to over-analyze the concept of God, just to state what it would take for me to start worshipping. (By the way, I think She would also have to be hot. )

A willful, all-powerful and all-knowing reality is what it would take. This reality does not have to be tangible, but it does need to be real otherwise what's the point? That's all.

 

[sameandnot]

good!* the point is to talk about this as well as think about it in ways that are coherent, and continue to shed light on the Reality. many do not even know what it is they say, and it is quite silly.

check it: so long as you have a concept of what you are, you are limiting yourSelf and pretending to be something that you ARE not. When you impose your will, you are projecing it from an idea of what you are, which is, in Reality, false to begin with. this may be too much, for right now, but it must be "put it out there", as it might be "seen". when you have no self- or otherwise-imposed idea of self, then you are. and what's more: you are equivalent with "That," which, in itself, Is, and also cannot be named. do you see that, the limiting of one's Self, by defining it as being some particular thing, is the seed of the separation from That unnamable Source, which is actually only (and all of) That/This? it's only logic. pure rationality has derived all of this explanation.

*a message for: orefa!

amazing how the ego fights for its survival in the face That... just doesn't want to let go.

 

[mugsby]

sameandnot so far you've talked a lot but havin't made one point (to me at least), :zzz:

 

[sameandnot]

sameandnot so far you've talked a lot but havin't made one point (to me at least), :zzz:

who am i to think that i can make knowledge claims, such as what you want to hear? i can, however, identify where we have our ignorances, and therefore help to unfold the mind to greater and greater self-awareness, by exposing ignorance and assumptions. your comment was not unforeseen, mugsby. it was known that it would come at some point, and perhaps even today! lo and behold, you have done it! really... with our finite minds (as in our limited means to "know" every"thing"), how can i make claims that suggest i know everything.

here is a point, just for you, since the previous post was not enough, apparently: we can not say what it is, but only negate that which it is not. suggestion: begin by examing what you are... rather, determine if you have long believed yourself to be something you are not. after you have seen what you are not, or what is not, what you are left with is what is, and what you ARE. no?

"the mind is a labyrinth", was once said. you find your way through the labyrinth, by negating the possible ways you might go, (those which you have found to not be the way) and then by actualizing the only path that remains.

my previous post, told you in plain words the seed of Ignorance, itself being Ignorance, yet you want me to make claims, that are some how greater than that! i know, i am not saying things that You want to hear. sorry.

 

[mugsby]

it's not that your saying things i don't want to hear, your just rambling. you can form you opinions based on what you have personaly experienced and learned in your limited time on Earth or live in speculation. whatever works for you.

 

[sameandnot]

it's not that your saying things i don't want to hear, your just rambling. you can form you opinions based on what you have personaly experienced and learned in your limited time on Earth or live in speculation. whatever works for you.

opinions are heavy. if i carry them i must also carry beliefs. no? and if i am carrying those two, i must already be carrying lots of "knowledge". ugh! how could i get any where with all that baggage?!

plus, it's all based on the idea that i can "know", or that humanity can "know", but this is not so. all knowledge is self-referencing and therefore the extant of "knowledge" is endless and doomed to be incomplete.

oh well... i see no point in living in Ignorance, of the facts.

i guess, maybe, just maybe, i am kinda like a mental trainer, to helps the obese shed the harmful and burdensome, extra weight.

maybe all that weight is what keeps the halo down...

 

[sameandnot]

i try to stick with the "philosophy people", as living philosophically is the only way that "philosophy" has any meaning... otherwise it's just rhetoric and empty words. so, for the philosopher, i am... i guess...

..
~

 

[mugsby]

to me being a philosopher means lacking the ability to form an opinion. let's face it you'll never know everything, so why not take what you do know and use that?

 

[sameandnot]

what do you Know?

 

[mugsby]

enough to find a path that I'm happy with and for making the complex simple.

 

[sameandnot]

the only "thing" you can Know, is yourself. Further, the only thing you need to know is what you can know. The rest of your "knowledge" is really Ignorance. isn't it? at least you can agree, that without knowing yourself, all subsequent knowledge will be grown from the ignorance of the truth of yourself. that is, You are the one who seeks, but who is the seeker? if you do not know the seeker, how can you validate any subsequent "knowledge", that the seek has created, or as we like to say: "Discovered"?

 

[sameandnot]

how is the complex made simple, sir?

 

[mugsby]

well i could be like you and say that i can't 'know' because you can never 'know' to actually 'know' and then provide my own rebuttals to every question that i come up with. or i can just realize that my life is finite and their will never be a solution to a question that has no answer. therefore the only answer that the individual can come up with is based on how he/she perceives the question and what biases that person may have.

simple

 

[sameandnot]

"provide my own rebuttals to every question that i come up with."? there is only one question. that is simplicity, mugsby, and you don't know, so i am here.

i am telling you that you can Know, but not unless you first know the question, and therefore, the Problem. you do not want to see this. perhaps it is terrifying... the unknown often is.

You don't know that you don't Know, because you think that you do. that is an assumption, which, essentially, is Ignorance. You think that you know what You are, and that causes a Problem with seeing what the "You" is.

I am trying to spell this out very clearly, do you follow? vaguely? If you are now saying, to yourself, that you Know, tell me what You are. But if you accept that you don't know This is much less difficult... but I have Eternal time, so time is not a factor.

It is great because this ties directly into this original post, though, maybe you do not see the connection. Everything is connected, mugsby.

to live simply is to See simplicity. Even the complexity, is simplicity; This is simple. But first you must, dive, as a diver for a pearl (to borrow an analogy), in search of the Self. These are directions. you see? after this, I will have to go, which i guess might be perceived as unfortunate... Really, though, where can any'thing' ever be, but Here. You might say that It's All relative, or not. maybe better to not confine it to a label.

All of my posts could be considered meaningless or pointless, but they are certainly none of that... then again maybe they are... well, one thing's for sure: they have all pointed directly at the Source, but many have "taken the Moon for the finger" that points to it. "Nonsense," you say. Whatever. If you want to Know any'thing', know first the source of the perceiver. From whence to I perceive. What is the "I" that I know to be constant, through all of my mental and physical changes, and I that also conceive to be the same in all "I's"? Ever consider, what You are? That Knowledge is the Base, mugs; like the trunk of the Tree, or better: the roots.

When a tree grows of ignorance, chop that thing down. it's like when we chop down a scientific theory due to inconstancy. Make room for the healthier tree, which will sprout some real fruits. It's simple really... What are you? "Where you're at": is instantly answered, "what You're doing Here": as well, "what's up?", "Where you're going": at the same time. there is no more disturbance of these things... can't be, cause you See and Know. From that, every "fruit" follows naturally.

While typing this i see you yelling from your post... does that mean that your momentary smiley face is really a mask. a mask hiding some crazy, inhibited frustration? frustrated from all the complexity?

ok. I'm done. check it out mugsy, and who ever else is ripe. I am not here to sell you an ideology. I am giving you nothing, as well, nor do i want anything from you. But like I said, "Every"thing's" Connected". See? Check it out. (inside) see what you find. (that you are) don't stop, or fall asleep, until you know the truth of It. That is what I'm saying, have been saying and will always be saying... right Now.

To get you started... "Am I this body?" check it out. "Am I this mind?" check it out. pick up the scent and never lose it, till you've found It's Source, k?

God speed.

peas.

 

[mugsby]

clearly i have found 'self' or at least a place where I'm content and have provided myself answers to questions that apparently your still looking for. you claim 'ignorance' and to that i say your deluding yourself about the realities of the situation, life is only as hard as you make it when your dealing with abstractions in your mind. don't pass yourself off as a sage when you can't come to a conclusion with the tools provided to you by the real, tangible world.

ps: you read WAY to much into an emoticon i'd say application of thought is as important as the thought itself! *hint* *hint* how you like me now.

 

[sameandnot]

oh, no mugsby! you are cynical and are in comtempt! clearly you have not found Self, because You are not Seeing. you say that i am "dealing with abstractions in my mind" good point! i am. but only in so far as to point you to the meaning of the abstractions.

you are so deep in ignorance that you do not see that your value in "the application of thought and of thought itself" is only the dwelling in a world of abstractions! you do realize that names, words, symbols are abstractions... right? please try not to be ignorant of this fact.

come on, musgby! you can not even tell me what the Real world is. you tell me it is tangible. what do you mean?

Here's a question: is your awareness, consciousness, tangible? i mean, after you have defined tangible, does "awareness" fit with your description. perhaps you will see that, in order for you to perceive the world as tangible, there must be a reality that endows you with the ability to use your senses, and determine "tangability", of said world. don't overlook the most Simple knowledge of all. you didn't "dive" into this simplicity, (and by doing so, actully look at the reality, upon which your "reality" is based) but rather, you are satisfied with living the lie, only so that you don't need to make yourself vulnerable, to actually have been mis-taken. i am no pawn. i am not "taken". no one can cause Me; control me. i know what I am, where It's at, What It is. By Love I am here, but you are rebelling... it is not different than you thinking that "you" "know" what's best. you rebel against what is, by seeking/desiring what isn't. do you feel that you are constantly trying to "be better" or "have it easier"? If so, see that you are trying to be something that you are not, by "becoming". but you only do this because you don't know what You are. do you see? i am like a tool, a signpost, a compass, but no. you demand to insist that yo already know the way. you will not listen because you are rebelling, in order to assert your own will. pride is silly, and harmful... it is an obstruction rather than a virtue. please do not be mad. because it is not You that is mad, but the idea of you, which you have imposed, that is offended and is in fear of being ousted.

It is like a liar, a sitter, who has deceived You into believing that the house is really his. he has been claiming ownership, and has used fine trickery to fool You. he knows it is a lie, and will fight, tooth and nail to stay in this nice home, using cunning and cleverness. but the home is yours. once you know what You are and are no longer deceived, you will know that the house is truly yours, and not his. You are the power and he can not stay in the house once you have taken to regain the throne... his tricks do not work and the king is reinstated. the joker is banished. but the joker is very afraid of this happening and will continue to try tricking and deceiving you, so that you never know the truth. that is why you must go inward, away from the distractions he imposes, with full-determination, to see what is what.

do this just to prove me wrong at least. if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, you are Free, and if You already Know, as you claim to, show Me that it is You. You will know how to show Me, and I will recognize My brother, my Self, with no doubt, when he has returned home, and has informed me of his presence on the throne. You, must see the truth of yourSelf, otherwise, You remain the servant of some thief (who has been claiming to be king) when in actuality, You are the king and he just a con-man. he controls You, but You may use mind-control, to subdue his influence, for as long as it takes to regain consciousness and the throne which is rightfully yours and which has been awaiting your return for what seems to be eons.

see if there is a con-man in your house. do this by seeing what you really are. are you the slave of your mind or are you the king? no ego-tripping! the king has no need for the ego. the ego once reigned, but has since been banished, for the criminal activity he has committed, in the name of the Almighty. see?

 

[mugsby]

besides using bad analogys your consistanly telling other people what they don't know, you also can't read minds so your pointless attempts at imposing a 'self proclaimed' greater knowledge based on subverting reasoning doesn't work. my reasoning comes from empirical evidence while yours is based on illogical assumptions born in myth and fear of the unknown. you are the perpetuator of fruadulant reasoning, peddling misinformation to detract from your inability resolve the open ended questions presented by your pseudo-philosophical belief system. ROFL your just a charlitan who want's to be heralded as a prophet.

 

[sameandnot]

i never claimed to "know" such as yourself. you are aware that you don't know, because that is reason, and you even go so far as to say that you can't know. finally, though, you have accepted the apparent "easiness" of going about it as though you do know. you are only making hard on yourself. you are hypocritical, mugsby. no hypocrite can tell someone else he is mistaken.

that is not the king who writes, that is the fool. your pleasure at having continued to decieve yourself makes you ecstatic with pleasure.

why do you trust your "empirical beliefs"? you must prove that they are trust-worthy. to believe in them without proof, is not only foolish and unwise, but also is the anti-thesis of philosophy. what you spout now is rhetoric, for the fool is a sophist, and you, my friend, have been taken.

you know not Love, because you Hate Me. You can not Love and Hate, simultaneously, can you?

your reason to believe in your "empiricism" is a belief system, whose basis is one of habit and familiarity, rather than reason. you can prove me wrong, by proving that your empiricism is trust-worthy and rational. rational, logical arguments.

perhaps you think that an emotion can be considered a reason!

finally, there is no logical or rational grounds to believe in emprircism, or to have beliefs at all!

one cannot be absorbed by a belief and at the same time call oneself rational! lol

for Heaven's sake, mugsby, don't fight It!
(no matter how strong you think that you are, or your beliefs are, you are always hanging on by a thread.) Your whole dream will be swept away in an instant and no amount of kicking or screaming will shield you from the Reality of waking up.

p.s. i never claimed to be a "prophet" or a "sage", but since you think of/label me as such, perhaps you see that I am That. but you can fight it. i mean, you fight to the end it seems. usually that's a good thing, but in your case you aren't fighting the Fight, you are fighting your Self. You will beat your Self to a pulp and claim yourself victor! lol congratulations. that is what ignorance does. ignorance of the fact that you can't "know" in the same old way that you insist on "knowing". good luck syssiphus.

 

[mugsby]

"i never claimed to be a "prophet" or a "sage", but since you think of/label me as such, perhaps you see that I am That." <--- are you serious

"you know not Love, because you Hate Me. You can not Love and Hate, simultaneously, can you?" :!)

"why do you trust your "empirical beliefs"? you must prove that they are trust-worthy."

what can be measured (matter) is real and verifiable. you see a object, touch it, taste it, hear it, smell it then try to disprove that it exists.

"finally, there is no logical or rational grounds to believe in emprircism, or to have beliefs at all! "

not only have you revealed yourself, your back at square one. i'd even say you've gone a step back in reading your emotion based responce.

looks to me someone has fallen from grace, from me of course i hope you are learning about your true self here.

 

[loseyourname]

Straying from a discussion of atheism just a tad, fellas?

Epistemological arguments are welcome and encouraged. Feel free to start a thread in the Metaphysics and Epistemology forum.