Bach, Bach, and more Bach please

[BWV]

It should be remembered that most of this music was likely a quickly written down improvisation. Its an art lost in the 19th century that is getting more attention It was on May 7, 1747, that Bach visited Frederick the Great at Potsdam. The Prussian king preferred the pianoforte -- then called ''forte and piano'' -- to the less nuanced harpsichord or the organ; so much so that he had 15 of the instruments built for him. During this visit the king led Bach from room to room to try them out. (Bach had encountered pianos before the royal visit; he had complained that their action was too heavy, their treble too weak.) Frederick played for Bach a theme of his own and then asked Bach to improvise a fugue on it. After Bach obliged with a three-voice fugue, the king demanded a more spectacular six-voice fugue. Bach improvised a six-voice fugue on a theme of his own, but on his return to Leipzig wrote out a six-voice fugue on the royal theme. He had it printed with a number of other works all based on the same theme, and sent it to Frederick as ''a musical offering.''

- From Best Piano Composition: Six Parts Genius (New York Times. April 18, 1999) by Charles Rosen, author of The Classical Style.
“Bach could improvise fugues not because he was unique, but because almost any properly trained keyboard player in his day could. It was built into their musical thinking from the very beginning of their training.” He argues that even veteran concert artists today are “beginners at improvisation”: “Those who attend collegiate music schools spend nearly all their time and effort on learning, perfecting and reciting masterpieces from the standard repertoire.”
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jun/06/why-classical-musicians-need-to-learn-how-to-improvise

 

[Hornbein]

And modern orchestras did not exist in Bach's day, even Mozart and Haydn symphonies had much smaller ensembles than a modern symphony orchestra

I expect it was largely because audiences were smaller. That sort of classy music was pretty much something for rich people, courts of royalty and that sort of thing. And there weren't that many people in Europe.

As prosperity and population grew so did audiences, and as audiences grew so did orchestras. That's also why they changed from viols to violins, and A from 435 cycles to 440. These changes got a harsher but louder and more penetrating sound for the soloists. Violins had to be reinforced to handle the new tension. That's what you needed to be heard in the back row. According to tests Stradivarius violins don't sound better, just louder. As a sound engineer I can tell you the fundamental rule is that (within reason) louder sounds better. That's why when I'm mixing I use cuts, not boosts. If you boost something it often sounds better even though it's actually worse. If you cut something and there's an improvement then you know you've really got something going.

There was no recorded music. If you wanted to hear anything you had to have musicians. If you wanted to hear something really good you went to the big city. This brought in money for hotels and restaurants and trinket shops so it was important to the economy. You had dramatic architecture and beautiful statues and so forth to attract tourists. The more tourists, the bigger the orchestra to get the volume to please them all. The Vienna Musikverein is recognized as one of the best sounding halls on Earth, I think largely because it's loud, and it's loud largely because it's small. You'd think if it sounds so great that it would be copied. It used to be -- Symphony Hall in Boston is one -- but today halls are built larger. There are ten times as many people in the world today.

As for Symphony Hall, I think they blew it by leaving out the big Oscar-like statues. Statues and columns on the wall are great for sound. One of the best venues I ever experienced was an empty parking structure! Lots of columns. Columns obstruct view though, and view is more important than sound. People want to sit close to the orchestra so they can see the faces. So you have theater-in-the-round sort of places with seats surrounding the stage, a sort of anti-Musikverein. It's better to have a rigid wall in the rear to bounce the sound off of. If there are organ pipes on that wall, even better. All sorts of good reflections from those.

 

[Hornbein]

It seems superhuman.

 

[pinball1970]

It seems superhuman.

If you are going to play Bach you would not chose that instrument would you?
Very impressive.

 

[pbuk]

If you are going to play Bach you would not chose that instrument would you?

With the same tuning and a similar scale length to the violin for which it was composed, why not?

 

[pinball1970]

With the same tuning and a similar scale length to the violin for which it was composed, why not?

Eight strings, steel, picking is tricky as opposed to bowing so everything is staccato. If you are not accurate the note will sound dead.
Especially that kind of piece.

 

[pinball1970]

With the same tuning and a similar scale length to the violin for which it was composed, why not?

Ergonomically at least, watch the bow when she is on one string and just angles for adjacent string, peddle?

 

[Hornbein]

If you are going to play Bach you would not chose that instrument would you?
Very impressive.

It's more difficult than fingerstyle guitar and much more than keyboard. I don't see how anyone can do this. Maybe small hands are an advantage. Less angular inertia.

 

[Hornbein]

Here's another good one. That bass viol player is something.

 

[BWV]

Mandolin is not a modern instrument and there is a real classical repertoire for it

Unlike the Bach, which is an arrangement/transcription, Beethoven, Vivaldi and others wrote directlythe instrument

 

[Hornbein]

Mandolin is not a modern instrument and there is a real classical repertoire for it

Unlike the Bach, which is an arrangement/transcription, Beethoven, Vivaldi and others wrote directlythe instrument

Mandolin with only four strings and those of (probably) nylon. I didn't know there was such a thing.

In Tokyo I met a man from Yokohama who not only made his own instruments he made his own strings out of "catgut" [sheep intestines]. He let me play this but forbade me to tune it up because the strings were too fragile and precious.

 

[pinball1970]

Mandolin with only four strings and those of (probably) nylon. I didn't know there was such a thing.

In Tokyo I met a man from Yokohama who not only made his own instruments he made his own strings out of "catgut" [sheep intestines]. He let me play this but forbade me to tune it up because the strings were too fragile and precious.

Jan Ackerman does some nice Lute stuff. It sounds very Bach influenced or at least did when I was a teenager and did not know who John Dowland was.

 

[Hornbein]

 

[pbuk]

Eight strings, steel

But these are minor differences compared to any other instrument.

picking is tricky as opposed to bowing so everything is staccato.

No, staccato on a mandolin is a different technique. Rather than 'everything is staccato' you could say that 'nothing is legato' (except for pull-offs, which are difficult to 'pull off' convincingly on an (8 string) mandolin; I don't think Sierra is using any pull-offs in the video).

picking is tricky as opposed to bowing so everything is staccato.

Repeated notes on the same string can be harder (because you cannot play legato, although for proper phrasing not all notes that could be played legato are), however crossing strings can be easier because you can use sweep picking. The challenges posed by the suite of works from which this movement comes is discussed informatively by a mandolin player on a violin website here: https://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20138/14899/

If you are not accurate the note will sound dead.

If you are not accurate on a violin the note will sound flat.

Especially that kind of piece.

This is a difficult movement to play on any instrument.

It's more difficult than fingerstyle guitar and much more than keyboard.

Is this based on any evidence, or just a guess?

 

[Hornbein]

It's more difficult than fingerstyle guitar and much more than keyboard.

"Is this based on any evidence, or just a guess?"

I play keyboard, guitar with both a pick and fingerstyle, and have messed around with the mandolin. I'm amazed she can get the pick from string to string so quickly and smoothly to get those wide intervals. I have read that mandolin players have adopted sweep picking (invented by electric guitarist Frank Gambale in 1975) maybe that's the secret. Fingerstyle would be easier for this sort of thing because you have three fingers and a thumb in the game so there is less moving from string to string. Classical guitarists play fingerstyle.

These days I almost exclusively play keyboard because once one learns to do it it is easier to play than guitar. The keys are more accessible. (It did however take much longer to gain a basic competence on keyboard than guitar.)

 

[BWV]

Mandolin with only four strings and those of (probably) nylon. I didn't know there was such a thing.

In Tokyo I met a man from Yokohama who not only made his own instruments he made his own strings out of "catgut" [sheep intestines]. He let me play this but forbade me to tune it up because the strings were too fragile and precious.

The familiar double course, steel string mandolins did exist in the 18th century

 

[pinball1970]

But these are minor differences compared to any other instrument.No, staccato on a mandolin is a different technique. Rather than 'everything is staccato' you could say that 'nothing is legato' (except for pull-offs, which are difficult to 'pull off' convincingly on an (8 string) mandolin; I don't think Sierra is using any pull-offs in the video).Repeated notes on the same string can be harder (because you cannot play legato, although for proper phrasing not all notes that could be played legato are), however crossing strings can be easier because you can use sweep picking. The challenges posed by the suite of works from which this movement comes is discussed informatively by a mandolin player on a violin website here: https://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20138/14899/If you are not accurate on a violin the note will sound flat.This is a difficult movement to play on any instrument.Is this based on any evidence, or just a guess?

That's a good article, I suppose only proper players of both can give a good overview.

I was getting at this part.

"On the actual contrapuntal stuff, mandolin has maybe as significant an edge as violin does during the lyrical playing. I also would say that violin has the advantage on the perpetual motion playing. The bow almost keeps itself going on some of the really fast, long stuff in a way that the pick just doesn't. The pick, it's just like every stroke, you start feeling like, I keep having to drive this hammer, drive the nail into the board."

Some parts he said are easier than violin which I will have to look at to see what he means.

On the finger style comment by @Hornbein I think he was referring to traditional classical pieces played with standard technique.
So the heel of your hand rests over the sound hole and plays the lower line but you have another three fingers at your disposal to play runs or repeating pattern over three or four strings.
Here is an example, the right hand is busy but imagine having just one digit/ plec to play the notes?
There are are parts where his thumb is just hanging on the string waiting to jump in.

 

[Hornbein]

The familiar double course, steel string mandolins did exist in the 18th century

I thought steel strings weren't available until 1890. They are an industrial product.

 

[BWV]

I thought steel strings weren't available until 1890. They are an industrial product.

Then what were harpsichords and pianos strung with?

 

[Hornbein]

Then what were harpsichords and pianos strung with?

OK when were they invented? They don't seem easy to make.

 

[BWV]

Harpsichord- 16th century, piano - 18th century

 

[pinball1970]

Harpsichord- 16th century, piano - 18th century

Brass and steel, a quick search.

"By the 16th century, harpsichord makers in Italy were making lightweight instruments with low tension brass stringing. A different approach was taken in the Southern Netherlands starting in the late 16th century, notably by the Ruckers family. Their harpsichords used a heavier construction and produced a more powerful and distinctive tone with higher tension steel treble stringing. These included the first harpsichords with two keyboards, used for transposition.[3]"

 

[Hornbein]

 

[BWV]

there was a contemporary opinion of Bach as sort of an eccentric, mannered composer who sought the most extreme dissonances within the constraints of the style. Listen to Corelli, a great composer who did not stray from the general conventions of the period to get a sense of this

 

[Hornbein]

My experience is that on a pipe organ just about everything sounds dissonant. Acapella singing has the same problem.

 

[walkeraj]

JS Bach's music: geometric. Never to be confused with Handel's, for instance.

 

[Hornbein]

Toccata and Fugue on a harp.

 

[phinds]

And there weren't that many people in Europe.

100 million may not be a lot by today's standard, but, hey 100 million is not chopped liver. It's the number of wealthy people that matters to your point, not the total number.

 

[phinds]

I truly don't think a more overwhelming, blatant, unquestionable supremacy can ever be stated as that of Herr Bach in His field.

Oh, come on. Don't beat around the bush like that, tell us what you really think of him.

 

[Hornbein]

I'd say that the credit for this sort of thing ultimately goes back to organist Jon Lord. He influenced guitarist bandmate Richie Blackmore to move to this sort of style. I was around when it was first catching on. It became successful enough to mostly replace the blues-based style dominant at the time.

Like the organ, overdriven electric guitars are dynamically insensitive. That's one of the reasons I don't play them.

 

[pinball1970]

I'd say that the credit for this sort of thing ultimately goes back to organist Jon Lord. He influenced guitarist bandmate Richie Blackmore to move to this sort of style.

I agree with the first part but not the second. Both Lord and Blackmore loved Bach and put them in their solos but they both had unbelievable dynamics.
Richie continued to do that with Rainbow.

Anyway this solo is Bach influenced with changes in sound and dynamics. One of my favourite Jon Lord Bach parts.
EDIT: Solo at 3.32

 

[Hornbein]

What I mean is, an organ will produce the same sound, same volume, no matter how hard or softly you press the key. Even electronic keyboards that have touch sensitivity turn that off in the case of organs. Which is a reason I don't play the organ. Organs have that master volume or swell pedal but that isn't the same.

 

[pinball1970]

What I mean is, an organ will produce the same sound, same volume, no matter how hard or softly you press the key. Even electronic keyboards that have touch sensitivity turn that off in the case of organs. Which is a reason I don't play the organ. Organs have that master volume or swell pedal but that isn't the same.

They have all those buttons and stuff!

 

[pinball1970]

Like this guy!

 

[Hornbein]

The 19th century synthesizer.