Bad at math and great at physics, explain this paradox?

[user079622]

I am talking about university level.

There is lots of genius physicist/engineers who were bad in math.
If mathematics is the language of physics how this is even possible?
Do math and physics need different type of "intuition" or "solving methods" of how to explain this paradox?

 

[jedishrfu]

Yes, physicists use mostly applied math to do their work things like calculus, differential equations, linear algebra, statistics. Some branch into more esoteric realms like differential geometry, or the math used in string theory. Others do experiments to test theories and how they apply in different circumstances.

Mathematicians focus on proof and aren't concerned with experimental data. They want all of math fields based on some axioms and theorem results founded on proofs. Mathematicians are always looking for patterns in everything. Sometimes the math they develop peeks the interest of the other sciences and then it evolves to become more applied.

Sometimes, mathematicians will get intrigued by a physical problem such as the art of origami. They begin to develop new theorems on how paper folding works and algorithms to convert physical objects into paper folds.

The great math mystery:



and this one on origami:

 

[berkeman]

There is lots of genius physicist/engineers who were bad in math.

Can you please give some links for this statement? I'm not talking about YouTube videos and other pop-Sci links -- I'm asking for scientific articles that assert this and show evidence for this. Thank you.

 

[DaveE]

"Math" means different things to different people. You'll need to elaborate for this question to make sense.
At the "university level" physicists know a lot of math, but not everything.

This reminds me of an (apocryphal?) quote from a mathematician, at Stanford, I think. Which I'll paraphrase. When asked what his research was good for, he responded, 'If it was useful, I wouldn't be doing it. That's the kind of math they do over in the physical science buildings.'

 

[user079622]

Can you please give some links for this statement? I'm not talking about YouTube videos and other pop-Sci links -- I'm asking for scientific articles that assert this and show evidence for this. Thank you.

Read a book How to build a car, A.N.

"Math" means different things to different people. You'll need to elaborate for this question to make sense.

Math at engineering universities, 1. and 2. year, vectors, calculus, diff. equations.

 

[user079622]

Or in high math Einstein:

“Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.”
I dont know it was his joke or what...

 

[Ibix]

If I go to a climbing wall I'll struggle to get three feet off the ground. A serious climber will have much greater struggles trying to climb Everest than I will on a wall in a gym. Is the pro bad at climbing? Or does the pro only tackle really difficult problems?

Einstein wasn't struggling with Calculus 101.

 

[Drakkith]

I am talking about university level.

There is lots of genius physicist/engineers who were bad in math.
If mathematics is the language of physics how this is even possible?
Do math and physics need different type of "intuition" or "solving methods" of how to explain this paradox?

There is no paradox. 'Genius' physicists and engineers are not bad at the math that they need to use. They may or may not be winning the Fields medal, or making major publications in mathematical journals, but that doesn't mean that they are bad at math.

 

[user079622]

If I go to a climbing wall I'll struggle to get three feet off the ground. A serious climber will have much greater struggles trying to climb Everest than I will on a wall in a gym. Is the pro bad at climbing? Or does the pro only tackle really difficult problems?

Einstein wasn't struggling with Calculus 101.

Probably he refer to advanced math..

 

[user079622]

experience from physics and math student, she confirm that you dont have to be good at math to finish physics degree

 

[PeroK]

experience from physics and math student, she confirm that you dont have to be good at math to finish physics degree

People generally say they are bad at maths because it's not socially acceptable to admit that you can do mathematics.

 

[Hornbein]

Michael Faraday was terrible at math.

 

[berkeman]

Or in high math Einstein:

“Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.”
I dont know it was his joke or what...

 

[pinball1970]

Or in high math Einstein:

“Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.”
I dont know it was his joke or what...

Check out the mathematics in GR.

 

[gleem]

There is lots of genius physicist/engineers who were bad in math.

Just to restate which was talked around. What is meant to be bad? When someone says that to me it means they have difficulty understanding how to use math usually in relatively simple situations. This is not true of physicists. We know Einstein was good at university math. When he developed his theory of General Relativity he was not too proud to seek the assistance of Marcel Grossmann a mathematician with expertise in differential geometry. When Einstein implied or is it that the reader infers that Einstein was not good at math to whom was he talking and what kind of math did he have in mind? Einstein's difficulty may be the normal effort in learning a new subject compared to some of his peers whom he saw as more capable than himself or just showing deference to their expertise. Maybe Einstein was " bad " at math compared to
Hilbert but then most physicists were.

Check out the mathematics in GR

Yes, I have and I was stuck with the difference between covariant and contravariant vectors (outside of notation and transformation properties) until I found an explanation of the difference which is often omitted in many developments of the subject. I do not consider myself bad at math, but I need effort to get it right. I'm just in a different frame of reference compared to those with a greater facility with math. But, when you work hard enough it is hard to tell who might be better at math.

Do math and physics need different type of "intuition" or "solving methods" of how to explain this paradox?

I do not think so if you are talking about the same math except for the fact that mathematicians are concerned with the development and the justification of the math compared to the physicists interested in using it. Take matrix algebra, it was around for almost 200 years before it was "discovered" by Heisenberg as a useful tool for his theory. In recent years topology has become quite useful in physics.

 

[DaveE]

Math at engineering universities, 1. and 2. year, vectors, calculus, diff. equations.

You just can't really be a physicist without these, plus some more. Maxwell's equations, Schrodinger's equation, diffusion, harmonic oscillators, least action, etc. all require a good understanding of these subjects.

At my school every undergrad had to take 2 years of calculus. You'd have to take at least a 3rd year (complex analysis), and maybe more, unless you majored in humanities.

I will add from my perspective of a failed math major turned EE. These are not what I call math. This is what I call analysis, essential tools for physical sciences. Real math is more like number theory, group theory, topology, etc. I say this because I quickly switched away from my math major after my first quarter of algebra, which I hated. I liked analysis and have actually used much of it at some point. I never missed skipping "real math".

 

[martinbn]

@user079622 Let me guess. You are not good at maths, and you are hoping that you can still be good at physics, right? Forget it! And don't be lazy, put in the effort to get better at maths.

 

[user079622]

I will add from my perspective of a failed math major turned EE. These are not what I call math. This is what I call analysis, essential tools for physical sciences. Real math is more like number theory, group theory, topology, etc. I say this because I quickly switched away from my math major after my first quarter of algebra, which I hated. I liked analysis and have actually used much of it at some point. I never missed skipping "real math".

you failed at math major and switch to electrical engineering and become good student?
So can we conclude that math study is harder than engineering or physics(engineering is just one branch of physics)?

 

[user079622]

@user079622 Let me guess. You are not good at maths, and you are hoping that you can still be good at physics, right? Forget it! And don't be lazy, put in the effort to get better at maths.

No I just wonder how some genius engineers wrote that they had problems in math at uni.

 

[gleem]

No I just wonder how some genius engineers wrote that they had problems in math at uni.

Being clever comes to mind. No math needed. Think along the line of Edison.

 

[user079622]

Being clever comes to mind. No math needed. Think along the line of Edison.

You sound sarcastic, are you ?

 

[PeroK]

I'm not convinced that we know what being "bad" at maths means. Having difficulties with maths is something else. The first time we learn anything some people are naturals and pick things up immediately. Others need to work at it. But, if someone works at it and gradually learns it, that doesn't mean they were bad at it in the first place. An an example, consider learning a foreign language. Very few people pick it up immediately. It takes hard work. If someone works hard at learning a language and masters it, then we could say they were good at languages. It's the people that work hard and still can't learn it that are bad at it.

I simply don't believe all the people who have degrees or PhD's in physics or maths who claim they were bad at maths. I learned German about 40 years ago. And I think I was pretty good at it. But, it was still a lot of work to get to the level where I could read a book or understand normal conversation with a native speaker. I've forgotten most of it now, sadly.

 

[russ_watters]

I simply don't believe all the people who have degrees or PhD's in physics or maths who claim they were bad at maths....[flip order]

People generally say they are bad at maths because it's not socially acceptable to admit that you can do mathematics....

That might be part of it, but I do think some are legitimately better or worse in/between different disciplines. But:

No I just wonder how some genius engineers wrote that they had problems in math at uni.

It took me three tries to get through Differential Equations, and now I'm a significantly above average(for my specific field) mid-career mechanical engineer. Am I bad at math? Compared to a math major or physicist? Probably. Compared to similar level mechanical engineers? Maybe. Compared to an average art history degree-holder? Hahahahah!!&@&$ No.

It all depends who you are measuring yourself against. Einstein was probably the best Physicist of his time, and if that was the bar, he was below it for math. He may still have been one of the top 100 or 1000 mathematicians in the world, but that may have been "bad" enough for him to consider it a liability (compared to, say, Minkowski).

So, if you're comparing yourself to everyone, yes, you need to be "good" at math to be an engineer, physicist or mathematician, and the bar rises in that direction.

 

[user079622]

Einstein was great student, differential and integral calculus he had grade 4.5 (75%)

 

[DaveE]

you failed at math major and switch to electrical engineering and become good student?

Yes. But I switched before I failed. It's pretty common for undergrads to switch majors once they are exposed to more choices. OTOH, I would have failed; I wouldn't have been motivated, which is a huge factor (I also just wasn't smart enough compared to other math students at that school).

So can we conclude that math study is harder than engineering or physics(engineering is just one branch of physics)?

Nope. It's not a football game. It's stupid to keep that sort of score. Math is hard for stand-up comics; stand-up comedy is hard for mathematicians.

But you can conclude that, for me, algebra is much harder than physical sciences (minus chemistry, I really sucked at that). You are approaching this with a very simplistic attitude.

 

[gleem]

You sound sarcastic, are you ?

I did not intend to sound sarcastic. I did not know if Edison was bad at math in the vernacular sense or how he felt about it until a few minutes ago. As a student, he tried to read Newton's Principia but it left him with “a distaste for mathematics from which I never recovered.” So he hired mathematicians to help him with his projects. But engineering requires more than math. It requires ingenuity, good problem-solving ability, and attention to detail. As for the math, they still must be competent insofar as the math that they do use, or if not then hire a mathematician as Edison did.

 

[Vanadium 50]

You sound sarcastic, are you ?

You sound like you're trolling. Are you?

 

[user079622]

I'm not convinced that we know what being "bad" at maths means. Having difficulties with maths is something else. The first time we learn anything some people are naturals and pick things up immediately. Others need to work at it. But, if someone works at it and gradually learns it, that doesn't mean they were bad at it in the first place.

Yes , everyone is different.

Do you think that prior knowledge is important for math at uni? Can poor prior knowledge be one of reason someone struggle at uni or this is a completely personal thing?
Does student with great prior knowledge have big advantage?

 

[russ_watters]

Yes , everyone is different.

Do you think that prior knowledge is important for math at uni? Can poor prior knowledge be one of reason someone struggle at uni or this is a completely personal thing?
Does student with great prior knowledge have big advantage?

Don't these questions have obvious answers.

 

[berkeman]

Agreed. This thread's signal-to-noise ratio is dipping quite low right now thanks to the OP, and is closed temporarily for Moderation. Lordy.

 

[berkeman]

Don't these questions have obvious answers.

After a Mentor discussion, this thread will remain closed. Thanks to all who tried to help the OP with their questions.