BP Should Pay: Holding Corporations Accountable for Environmental Damage

[CRGreathouse]

I can't bring myself to buy from a company that's willing to go into deals with a nation that wants to annihilate Israel as quickly as BP is.

So how do you manage that? Stations don't generally advertise the source of their gas. The BP station may buy from Texico; the Shell station may buy gas from BP.

Also, can you explain the quoted sentence above? I'm trying to figure out what "quickly" modifies. I parse it as

"I can't bring myself to buy from [a company that's willing to go into deals with [a nation that wants to annihilate Israel]] as quickly as BP is."
->
"I can't bring myself to buy from [a company that's willing to go into deals with Iran] as quickly as BP is."
->
"I can't bring myself to buy from BP as quickly as BP is."

so I must be doing something wrong.

 

[Office_Shredder]

So how do you manage that? Stations don't generally advertise the source of their gas. The BP station may buy from Texico; the Shell station may buy gas from BP..

I think franchise gas stations are required to buy gas from the company usually

 

[Cyrus]

So how do you manage that? Stations don't generally advertise the source of their gas. The BP station may buy from Texico; the Shell station may buy gas from BP.

All gas stations that are owned by the oil company must by gas from the company.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Why do you want BP to not pay what they naturally owe?

No, it wouldn't be the same situation, because this time, BP's assets would be liquidated, and if anything is left over, it would be distributed amongst shareholders.

By the way, the jobs would probably be replaced by the oil companies buying BP's wells, refineries, etc.

I obviously can not imagine how much money the damages would range in but in many cases where corporations are confronted with class action suits they wind up going bankrupt and not being able to pay everything that they owe. You may not be concerned for the welfare of BP but if you are concerned about all of the damages being taken care of it would be preferable that they not go bankrupt.

All gas stations that are owned by the oil company must by gas from the company.

I have read that the companies buy from each other. Some times they do not have enough to meet demand and others have more than enough. The later will then sell their excess to the former. Unless you really care what company actually pumped the oil though I do not see that it makes much of a difference.

 

[SonyAD]

BP isn't going to go bankrupt over the damages. That's just another sad, sad, right wing canard. Like the one where they try to make BP out to be the victim of government, maybe imply the government is primarily at fault, maybe they even caused the spill and not BP, even though government failed only in curtailing private sector wrong doing and actually regulating.

Even though BP has been written for so much more violations than all the other big oil players on the market, etc.

BP doesn't sell here, that I know of. No loss there. Their POS lubricants do, though.

I've tried Castrol 75w90 manual tranny oil. It lasted six months before the shaft bearings started whining, shifting started getting clunky. So now I only use Liqui Moly.

I would have expected a science forum to be conspicuously devoid of right wingnuts.

 

[mynameinc]

I obviously can not imagine how much money the damages would range in but in many cases where corporations are confronted with class action suits they wind up going bankrupt and not being able to pay everything that they owe. You may not be concerned for the welfare of BP but if you are concerned about all of the damages being taken care of it would be preferable that they not go bankrupt.

My pessimist side says that there is no way BP can actually pay everything they owe and not be bankrupt.

I have read that the companies buy from each other. Some times they do not have enough to meet demand and others have more than enough. The later will then sell their excess to the former. Unless you really care what company actually pumped the oil though I do not see that it makes much of a difference.

I simply loathe the idea of using my money to build a nuclear weapon to destroy Eretz Israel.

BP isn't going to go bankrupt over the damages. That's just another sad, sad, right wing canard.

1) Explain how it's right wing.
2) Explain how BP is going to save itself from bankruptcy. If it's good enough, I'll buy into BP. :)

Like the one where they try to make BP out to be the victim of government, maybe imply the government is primarily at fault, maybe they even caused the spill and not BP, even though government failed only in curtailing private sector wrong doing and actually regulating.

That one has been used in this thread. I don't buy into it, though.

I've tried Castrol 75w90 manual tranny oil. It lasted six months before the shaft bearings started whining, shifting started getting clunky. So now I only use Liqui Moly.

So, their products are terrible, also?

I would have expected a science forum to be conspicuously devoid of right wingnuts.

I'm actually a Libertarian positionnut. I get called a Liberal wingnut by the Conservatives, and a Conservative wingnut by the Liberals.

I would expect a science forum to be liberal, too.

 

[mynameinc]

So how do you manage that? Stations don't generally advertise the source of their gas. The BP station may buy from Texico; the Shell station may buy gas from BP.

Also, can you explain the quoted sentence above? I'm trying to figure out what "quickly" modifies. I parse it as

"I can't bring myself to buy from [a company that's willing to go into deals with [a nation that wants to annihilate Israel]] as quickly as BP is."
->
"I can't bring myself to buy from [a company that's willing to go into deals with Iran] as quickly as BP is."
->
"I can't bring myself to buy from BP as quickly as BP is."

so I must be doing something wrong.

I didn't phrase it the best way. Langauge is my weak point, especially English.

A better way of phrasing that:

I refuse to buy from BP as long as they are friendly to Iran.

 

[Cyrus]

I have read that the companies buy from each other. Some times they do not have enough to meet demand and others have more than enough. The later will then sell their excess to the former. Unless you really care what company actually pumped the oil though I do not see that it makes much of a difference.

What I'm saying is that the franchise owner of a Shell can't call up Texaco and have them deliver a load of fuel at a lower cost than what a Shell load might cost. They have to purchase fuel from the parent companies distribution source.

 

[KalamMekhar]

I didn't phrase it the best way. Langauge is my weak point, especially English.

A better way of phrasing that:

I refuse to buy from BP as long as they are friendly to Iran.

"I refuse to buy made in the USA products because Obama is president"

 

[nismaratwork]

"I refuse to buy made in the USA products because Obama is president"

I have to speak at this point: how have we moved from an appropriate HYPOTHETICAL punishment for BP, to relations with Iran and nuclear politics?!

Oh, and remember that "scientist" is a profession, vocation, and avocation... not a political view. Ideally a scientist shouldn't be right, left, center, or anything else; a scientist should be practical, desiring empirical evidence on a case-by-case basis. Then again, we're all human, and subject to those same frailties of wit.

Dirac was enamored of Communist ideals, possibly having been exposed to them by Kapitza, and Heisenberg seemed fairly cozy with the Nazis. If you expect even brilliant scientists to be inhumanly impartial, liberal, or conservative you're going to be dissapointed.

 

[mynameinc]

"I refuse to buy made in the USA products because Obama is president"

You're a conservative, aren't you?

I have to speak at this point: how have we moved from an appropriate HYPOTHETICAL punishment for BP, to relations with Iran and nuclear politics?!

Antiphon and KalamMekhar were discussing how they will now buy all of their gas from BP, and I stated that I refused to buy gas from them because of how cozy they are with NIOC.

Oh, and remember that "scientist" is a profession, vocation, and avocation... not a political view. Ideally a scientist shouldn't be right, left, center, or anything else; a scientist should be practical, desiring empirical evidence on a case-by-case basis. Then again, we're all human, and subject to those same frailties of wit.

Yes, (unfortunately?) all adults have political views. But, overwhelmingly, academics and scientists do vote liberal.

 

[nismaratwork]

You're a conservative, aren't you?



Antiphon and KalamMekhar were discussing how they will now buy all of their gas from BP, and I stated that I refused to buy gas from them because of how cozy they are with NIOC.



Yes, (unfortunately?) all adults have political views. But, overwhelmingly, academics and scientists do vote liberal.

I still believe that Antiphon is intoxicated or joking, and I don't find the notion of symbolic protests very moving. We're talking about recompense for loss of human life, and a kind of environmental and fiscal Depraved Indifference. I think we're beginning to stray from discussion into meaningless catharsis.

 

[mheslep]

BP isn't going to go bankrupt over the damages.

To know that for sure, one would have roughly know BP's net worth and roughly know the maximum possible damages. What are they?

I would have expected a science forum to be conspicuously devoid of right wingnuts.

Ha! BP is the government, didn't you know?

[PLAIN]http://davidsonnews.net/files/2010/02/020110Koonin.jpg

Dr. Steven E. Koonin was confirmed by the Senate on May 19, 2009 as the second Undersecretary for Science in the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE). Dr. Koonin brings to the post a distinguished career as a university professor and administrator at the California Institute of Technology. He also has experience in the private sector, joining the government from the position of Chief Scientist for BP, plc, based in London.

At BP since 2004, Koonin was responsible for ...

http://www.energy.gov/organization/dr_steven_koonin.htm

BTW, I would say the federal government does now hold primary responsibility for botching the clean up, not the leak itself.

 

[mynameinc]

I still believe that Antiphon is intoxicated or joking, and I don't find the notion of symbolic protests very moving.

If you referring to my refusal to buy from BP, it's not supposed to be moving. I plan to immigrate to Israel, and would only be funding my own demise!

Besides, once again, I don't drive, so it doesn't matter anyway.

We're talking about recompense for loss of human life, and a kind of environmental and fiscal Depraved Indifference. I think we're beginning to stray from discussion into meaningless catharsis.

You're probably right.

 

[SonyAD]

My pessimist side says that there is no way BP can actually pay everything they owe and not be bankrupt.

The escrow fund is $20 billion. BP made $14 billion in profits last year.

So they might need to sell some assets to pay that off within a quarter. Boo hoo.

Unless they manage to cap the gusher there is no point in discussing clean up costs. However, I'm sure an arrangement can be reached where by BP could pay what they owe gradually. It's not like they're some working stiff being foreclosed on by the bank because of a health care related bankruptcy.

1) Explain how it's right wing.
2) Explain how BP is going to save itself from bankruptcy. If it's good enough, I'll buy into BP. :)

1)
2) BP made $14 billion in profits in 2009.

That one has been used in this thread. I don't buy into it, though.

The other flavours of right wing do, though. They don't just buy it, they try to sell it on too.

So, their products are terrible, also?

From my experience, yes. Their motor oil sucks too. The Castrol Magnatec semisynthetics and group III oils suck. I've tried them too, before I knew any better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDZSa7LbscM" is how they advertise their tripe.

BTW, I would say the federal government does now hold primary responsibility for botching the clean up, not the leak itself.

What clean up? The spill is huge and ongoing.

 

[mheslep]

What clean up?

Exactly! The government might want to do something about the 30 million or so gallons of crude floating around the Gulf or landed on the beaches. That, or get out of the way.

 

[SonyAD]

That's risible. Get out of the way? Of whom? BP? Are you pulling my leg?

My point was that the spill should be curtailed first. Then focus on the clean up. You first get out of the cesspool and then wash.

 

[mheslep]

That's risible. Get out of the way? Of whom? BP? Are you pulling my leg?

Out of the way of the http://www.newser.com/story/89765/jindal-to-us-were-not-waiting-for-you.html" and refused.

My point was that the spill should be curtailed first. Then focus on the clean up. You first get out of the cesspool and then wash.

That's not a apt analogy. Much can be done in the way of booms, berms, and skimmers to largely stop the oil from reaching sensitive areas.

 

[mynameinc]

The escrow fund is $20 billion. BP made $14 billion in profits last year.

So they might need to sell some assets to pay that off within a quarter. Boo hoo.

I think you mean a year. But, the >$64,000 question is, will the escrow fund settle everything?

Unless they manage to cap the gusher there is no point in discussing clean up costs. However, I'm sure an arrangement can be reached where by BP could pay what they owe gradually. It's not like they're some working stiff being foreclosed on by the bank because of a health care related bankruptcy.

But the payments could be so large that it has a good chance of bankrupting them.

1)
2) BP made $14 billion in profits in 2009.

1) He made it clear he was only speaking for himself. Also, did he say anything about bankruptcy?
2) Will $14B cover the cost? Really, the $20B Gulf tourism industry is the largest of their problems. That should recover quickly. However, the Louisiana tourism and fishing industry is worth >$6B a year, and is destroyed for years.

From my experience, yes. Their motor oil sucks too. The Castrol Magnatec semisynthetics and group III oils suck. I've tried them too, before I knew any better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDZSa7LbscM" is how they advertise their tripe.

Which supermajor does Liqui Moly belong to?

 

[CRGreathouse]

What I'm saying is that the franchise owner of a Shell can't call up Texaco and have them deliver a load of fuel at a lower cost than what a Shell load might cost.

Sure they can -- and do.

 

[KalamMekhar]

Every gas station here is filled up by Rainy Lake Oil, I will head out there tomorrow to see who their seller is.

The stations that get filled up are:

Freedom
BP
Holiday

 

[russ_watters]

The escrow fund is $20 billion. BP made $14 billion in profits last year.

So they might need to sell some assets to pay that off within a quarter. Boo hoo.

Are you suggesting that that $14 billion is just sitting around in a bank somewhere or are you suggesting that BP is going to make a $14 billion profit this year? Either of those claims would require at the very least a logical argument to support them.

 

[Char. Limit]

I for one have absolutely no sympathy for either BP or MMS. We should fire everyone in MMS and replace them with people who at least have some semblance of duty and morality (the present people do not). And BP? Let them go bankrupt, I don't care. The people who actually do the work will be snapped up by other oil companies, and the directors and central officers are the ones who approved this whole thing.

Get rid of BP. They shouldn't be allowed to harvest oil anywhere near the United States waters. Ever.

 

[nismaratwork]

It will never happen, but I really, truly believe that this is should be a time for the case-law of Depraved Heart/Indifference to be expanded. 2nd degree murder for members of MMS, and people directly involved with this mess at BP sounds right.

 

[mynameinc]

Every gas station here is filled up by Rainy Lake Oil, I will head out there tomorrow to see who their seller is.

The stations that get filled up are:

Freedom
BP
Holiday

I'll bet that they buy from a variety of sellers.

 

[SonyAD]

I think you mean a year. But, the >$64,000 question is, will the escrow fund settle everything?

Probably not. But BP and their R courtesans will fight tooth and nail all the way.

But the payments could be so large that it has a good chance of bankrupting them.

Excellent. Make an example out of them. Then seize their assets by executive decree to pay for the catastrophe they've caused.

1) He made it clear he was only speaking for himself. Also, did he say anything about bankruptcy?

The difference between him and most rightwingers is he spoke his mind.

I've had the displeasure of meeting an American professor of the RW political persuasion and I know for a fact how they think.

2) Will $14B cover the cost? Really, the $20B Gulf tourism industry is the largest of their problems. That should recover quickly. However, the Louisiana tourism and fishing industry is worth >$6B a year, and is destroyed for years.

Nothing will recover quickly. Not the ecosystem, not the local economy.

Which supermajor does Liqui Moly belong to?

They're a German outfit manufacturing only in Germany. I think they buy their base stock from Ravenol but I'm not sure and I don't remember where I read that.

Are you suggesting that that $14 billion is just sitting around in a bank somewhere or are you suggesting that BP is going to make a $14 billion profit this year? Either of those claims would require at the very least a logical argument to support them.

Are you really, really, seriously suggesting BP, which has a quarter trillion dollars in assets, 100 billion in equity, might be unable to gradually acquit themselves of a $20 billion escrow fund without risking bankruptcy? It's not like the claims come all at once. They take time to process, which will be purposefully drawn out. Many will be rejected as unfounded.

Even if BP goes under, tough tamales. It could hardly have happened to a more egregious corporate miscreant.

Out of the way of the http://www.newser.com/story/89765/jindal-to-us-were-not-waiting-for-you.html" and refused.

Please spare me the Fox news and BJ's talking points. The gulf states' governors' haven't even deployed the national guard.

Start watching something other than the RW propaganda outlets.

 

[mheslep]

Please spare me the Fox news and BJ's talking points.

SonyAD that's an Associated Press story I sourced above. If you assert they are really 'Fox news talking points', then please provide a source, per the guidelines.

The gulf states' governors' haven't even deployed the national guard.

The National Guard is no doubt excellent at crowd control, preventing looting, and helping the injured, etc. I don't know that the Guard has a large stockpile of oil skimming or dredging equipment, booms, boats, or operators. I'm fairly sure you don't know either and don't care in the least. However, Gov. Jindal did indeed http://thehayride.com/2010/04/jindal-sends-request-letters-for-national-guard-callup-on-oil-spill/"

Honorable Robert M. Gates
Secretary of Defense
U.S. Department of Defense
Pentagon
Washington, DC 20310

Dear Secretary Gates:

I request that you approve funding for at least 90 days of military
duty in Title 32 USC 502(f) status for up to 6,000 Soldiers and Airmen serving on active duty in support of our response to the threat of the Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill to the State of Louisiana. Title 32 status will allow the members of the National Guard supporting the response to the oil spill[...].

"[URL
and deployed some few days later:[/URL]

The Louisiana National Guard began pre-positioning soldiers and resources today on the coast and by tomorrow, 600 Guardsmen will begin assisting with oil spill response efforts.

Why do you believe you are entitled to post page after page of claims here with no reference?

 

[mynameinc]

Probably not. But BP and their R courtesans will fight tooth and nail all the way.

That's true. They'll end up buying judges.

Excellent. Make an example out of them. Then seize their assets by executive decree to pay for the catastrophe they've caused.

That's exactly what should be done, just to prevent the mess of trying to get them to pay for it.

Nothing will recover quickly. Not the ecosystem, not the local economy.

That's true. I must admit, I was looking at it with rose-colored glasses.

They're a German outfit manufacturing only in Germany. I think they buy their base stock from Ravenol but I'm not sure and I don't remember where I read that.

As Vince Offer said on the ShamWOW! commercial, 'you know the Germans make good stuff.'

Are you really, really, seriously suggesting BP, which has a quarter trillion dollars in assets, 100 billion in equity, might be unable to gradually acquit themselves of a $20 billion escrow fund without risking bankruptcy? It's not like the claims come all at once. They take time to process, which will be purposefully drawn out. Many will be rejected as unfounded.

They've lost a lot of that equity since share value halved.

My prediction of bankruptcy came with the condition that they pay everything they owe.

Even if BP goes under, tough tamales. It could hardly have happened to a more egregious corporate miscreant.

It's almost like an escaped serial killer getting ran over on the highway.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Guardsmen debacle:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/24/eveningnews/main6615414.shtml

Obviously they thought they would need thousands of people to do something or they wouldn't have asked for it

 

[Office_Shredder]

Guardsmen debacle:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/24/eveningnews/main6615414.shtml

Obviously they thought they would need thousands of people to do something or they wouldn't have asked for it

 

[mheslep]

Guardsmen debacle:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/24/eveningnews/main6615414.shtml

Obviously they thought they would need thousands of people to do something or they wouldn't have asked for it

debacle:
2 : a violent disruption (as of an army) : rout
3 a : a great disaster b : a complete failure : fiasco

How so in this case?

 

[mheslep]

More from the http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bp-oil-spill-gov-bobby-jindals-wishes-crude/story?id=10946379" :

Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal has spent the past week and half fighting to get working barges to begin vacuuming crude oil out of his state's oil-soaked waters. By Thursday morning, against the governor's wishes, those barges still were sitting idle, even as more oil flowed toward the Louisiana shore.
[...]
"It's the most frustrating thing," the Republican governor told ABC News while visiting Buras, La. "Literally, [Wednesday] morning we found out that they were halting all of these barges."
[...]
Sixteen barges sat stationary Thursday, although they had been sucking up thousands of gallons of BP's oil as recently as Tuesday. [...]

Coast Guard Orders Barges to Stop

So why stop now?

"The Coast Guard came and shut them down," Jindal said. "You got men on the barges in the oil, and they have been told by the Coast Guard, 'Cease and desist. Stop sucking up that oil.'"

A Coast Guard representative told ABC News that it shares the same goal as the governor.

"We are all in this together. The enemy is the oil," said Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Dan Lauer.

But the Coast Guard ordered the stoppage because of reasons that Jindal found frustrating. The Coast Guard needed to confirm that there were fire extinguishers and life vests on board, and then it had trouble contacting the people who built the barges.
[...]
The governor said he didn't have the authority to overrule the Coast Guard's decision, though he said he tried to reach the White House to raise his concerns.

"They promised us they were going to get it done as quickly as possible," he said. But "every time you talk to someone different at the Coast Guard, you get a different answer."

After Jindal strenuously made his case, the barges finally got the go-ahead Thursday to return to the Gulf and get back to work, after more than 24 hours of sitting idle.

 

[nismaratwork]

Obviously, as mheslep has shown with sources, the government has been utterly unprepared for this, but mheslep, how does this in any way mean they should "get out of the way" for the equally unprepared BP? Nobody strikes me as being prepared for this, predictable as it seems to have been.

Now, if I were on a barge that was siphoning flammable unguent, I'd want to be DAMNED sure that I had the means to escape my vessel with plentiful lifeboats and vests. Given the high seas, and the hurricane season, even more so. This isn't "prevention", just another symptom of the global lack of preparedness. After all, if one of those ships goes down, who's going to be responsible for a dirth of safety equipment?... the Coast Guard. Everyone, from the local to federal government, and BP are covering their asses and waiting for the relief wells.

Of that group, MMS and their overseers, BP, and Transocean seem to be the ones to "blame". I understand the "we all need oil" argument, but we also need to live together in a society. When someone snaps and kills another member of society, we don't blame our desire to live together. To me, there are a large number of "villains" here, but no one has been so egregious as MMS in their inaction, and BP in their use of dispersants.

 

[mheslep]

Obviously, as mheslep has shown with sources, the government has been utterly unprepared for this, but mheslep, how does this in any way mean they should "get out of the way" for the equally unprepared BP?[...]

They should have gotten out of the way of those barge skimming operators, whoever they are. They should get out of the way of the half million gallon per day skimmer the A-Whale, whoever owns it, and other foreign crewed ships http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703426004575339650877298556.html?mod=googlenews_wsj" And so on.

Of that group, MMS and their overseers, BP, and Transocean seem to be the ones to "blame".

Agreed, with respect to drilling accident itself. I'm talking about the cleanup.

 

[nismaratwork]

They should have gotten out of the way of those barge skimming operators, whoever they are. They should get out of the way of the half million gallon per day skimmer the A-Whale, whoever owns it, and other foreign crewed ships http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703426004575339650877298556.html?mod=googlenews_wsj" And so on.

Agreed, with respect to drilling accident itself. I'm talking about the cleanup.

Yeah, I see what you're getting at, but the executive is remaining wondrously uninvolved in matters that require his power. Well, congress could, but they're too busy pissing in each others' lattes.