Can Black Holes Truly Exist for Earth Observers?

[PeterDonis]

Physicists claim that observations are consistent with the existence of massive black holes in galaxy centres. What definition of exist are they using?

They're using the one I gave in post #9: a black hole "exists" if the spacetime contains an event horizon.

 

[Dale]

It isn't invalid.

It is invalid. PAllen is correct to point out that there exist a class of coordinate systems where your coordinate-dependent statements are not true.

You are asserting a physical preference for a specific set of coordinates that simply is not valid in GR. The Schwarzschild coordinates are no better nor worse than any other valid coordinate chart covering the same section of the manifold, which is essentially one of the basic principles of GR. Hence, your objection to PAllen's criticism is invalid.

Do you have a semantic problem with me proclaiming that, for example, "universal heat death has occurred"?

Can you produce a valid coordinate system where the universal heat death is simultaneous with yesterday?

 

[rjbeery]

This is not a correct deduction. The black hole interior is not in the past light cone of any event outside the horizon, but that's not at all the same as saying it is in the future light cone of *every* event outside the horizon, which is what the first part of the above quote asserts. The future light cone of any event outside the horizon only includes a portion of the black hole interior; it does not include the entire interior.

It is in the future light cone of every event outside of the horizon TODAY. I'm talking about existence and what we mean by that word today. It is nonsensical to claim that something exists today only because it will in the future.

 

[PAllen]

I like this request for clarification, thank-you. My question is more related to the latter, although I must disclose the fact that I prefer the gravastar (the original "frozen star") interpretation of what we are [not] observing in those galaxy centers.

Note, I think many physicists think the GR description of BH interior is incorrect; some that the horizon description is wrong (though this is getting less tenable as observations are closing in on the horizon). Is the discussion here quantum modifications to GR (gravastar is a variant of these), or what classical GR predicts. I (and I think others) have been answering in the context of classical GR. You need to clarify the basis for your discussion.

 

[PeterDonis]

Do you have a semantic problem with me proclaiming that, for example, "universal heat death has occurred"?

Yes. This is the flip side of the error you're making about "past" vs. "past light cone". An event can be "in the future" of another event without being in the future light cone of that event; but if it is, the events must be spacelike separated. The universal heat death is in our future light cone, so it's not spacelike separated from us "now".

 

[rjbeery]

They're using the one I gave in post #9: a black hole "exists" if the spacetime contains an event horizon.

Contains "when"?

 

[PeterDonis]

It is in the future light cone of every event outside of the horizon TODAY.

No, it isn't. Assuming that the classical GR picture is correct as regards there being a black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy, there are events in the interior of that black hole which are *not* in the future light cone of the event of you sitting at your computer right now, or of any other event outside the horizon that is simultaneous with that event. This is actually true for *any* simultaneity convention you choose, not just the Schwarzschild coordinate simultaneity convention, which is the one you appear to prefer.

 

[PeterDonis]

Contains "when"?

There is no "when". The spacetime is a 4-dimensional geometric object; the event horizon is an invariant geometric feature of that geometric object. The statement "the spacetime contains an event horizon" is therefore an invariant geometric statement; it's not associated with any "time". It's just a geometric fact, like the fact that the Earth's equator is a great circle.

 

[rjbeery]

Note, I think many physicists think the GR description of BH interior is incorrect; some that the horizon description is wrong (though this is getting less tenable as observations are closing in on the horizon). Is the discussion here quantum modifications to GR (gravastar is a variant of these), or what classical GR predicts. I (and I think others) have been answering in the context of classical GR. You need to clarify the basis for your discussion.

Completely fair. I focus on philosophical questions about the nature of reality irrespective of which mathematical model we use, and that can cause miscommunication.

 

[Dale]

Personally, I have no problem with rjbeery's definition of "exist". As far as I know, it is not an important concept scientifically and there isn't a standard scientific definition, so IMO you should be free to define it how you like.

The way you have chosen to define it means that black holes tautologically do not exist for exterior observers. That poses no problems whatsoever for the theory since the theory does not predict that they should exist according to that definition.

 

[Dale]

I focus on philosophical questions about

This forum is for science, not philosophy. Please restrict your questions to scientific ones.

 

[PAllen]

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Spacelike separated events are ambiguous in their causal order, and there is no external frame in which the collapse occurred "in the past".

You are mistaken. You are now arguing against mathematical fact. Spacelike separation means: neither in your future light cone, nor in your past light cone. There are many interior events in this category (as well as interior events that are in your future light light cone). In general, there exist timelike interior world lines that go from outside your future light cone right now, to inside it.That is, there would exist an interior free faller who would get a signal you send now at a specific time on their watch after crossing the EH and before reaching the singularity. Events on this world line earlier than this signal receipt have spacelike separation to you now.

 

[PAllen]

It is in the future light cone of every event outside of the horizon TODAY. I'm talking about existence and what we mean by that word today. It is nonsensical to claim that something exists today only because it will in the future.

Actually, I find it perfectly sensible to claim that if a theory predicts that something will exist in the future, there is some (possibly future) time I would declare it to exist in the present (per that theory). However, this debate is not constructive because it is Ontology not physics.

 

[rjbeery]

You are mistaken. You are now arguing against mathematical fact. Spacelike separation means: neither in your future light cone, nor in your past light cone.

This is interesting because you are all saying the same thing; I do not question your mathematical abilities, so I think there is a miscommunication here. I'm wondering if there is a semantic issue, or I'm using terminology incorrectly, but the interior of the event horizon in the future surely cannot be considered to be the same spacetime location as that of today when we are postulating its existence? A portion of the event horizon interior can be light-like separated from us, I will obviously admit, but are you claiming that the remaining portion of its interior is space-like separated from us "now"?

 

[rjbeery]

Actually, I find it perfectly sensible to claim that if a theory predicts that something will exist in the future, there is some (possibly future) time I would declare it to exist in the present (per that theory). However, this debate is not constructive because it is Ontology not physics.

Yes, I've already gotten what I intended to from the OP. Thanks for your input

 

[PAllen]

This is interesting because you are all saying the same thing; I do not question your mathematical abilities, so I think there is a miscommunication here. I'm wondering if there is a semantic issue, or I'm using terminology incorrectly, but the interior of the event horizon in the future surely cannot be considered to be the same spacetime location as that of today when we are postulating its existence? A portion of the event horizon interior can be light-like separated from us, I will obviously admit, but are you claiming that the remaining portion of its interior is space-like separated from us "now"?

There is one definition of spacelike separation carried over from SR to GR: events between my past light cone and by future light cone of this moment, have spacelike separation from me now. For the BH interior, there are events in my future light cone and events not in my future light cone, such that a timelike patch connects these spacelike separated events to the ones in my future light cone. The only peculiar thing is that no interior event will ever be in the past light cone of an exterior event (it will always be a mix of events with spacelike separation from you, and events in your causal future; the former come before the latter on interior timelike curves that connect them). To me, the 'never in your past light cone' peculiarity is nothing but a consequence of gravity being so strong that light cannot escape.

 

[rjbeery]

There is one definition of spacelike separation carried over from SR to GR: events between my past light cone and by future light cone of this moment, have spacelike separation from me now. For the BH interior, there are events in my future light cone and events not in my future light cone, such that a timelike patch connects these spacelike separated events to the ones in my future light cone. The only peculiar thing is that no interior event will ever be in the past light cone of an exterior event (it will always be a mix of events with spacelike separation from you, and events in your causal future; the former come before the latter on interior timelike curves that connect them). To me, that is nothing but a consequence of gravity being so strong that light cannot escape.

We've basically hammered the same point from many different angles, but just because something is in my future light cone does not mean it exists today when we discuss it over coffee. Additionally, the interior of the event horizon is not spacelike separated from us now if we use the wikipedia definition:

Generally, the events are considered not to occur in each other's future or past. There exists a reference frame such that the two events are observed to occur at the same time, but there is no reference frame in which the two events can occur in the same spatial location[...]Like the proper time of time-like intervals, the proper distance of space-like spacetime intervals is a real number value.

You and DaleSpam seem to apply the first sentence but not the remaining. The proper distance between any external observer and the portion of the interior of the event horizon which is not like-like separated is infinite, which is not a real number value. Additionally, the causal order is not ambiguous. In a strange way it appears that a some of the internal portion of the event horizon is neither time-like, space-like, nor light-like separated from us. All the more reason to question its existence, IMO, but this is boiling down to a semantic/philosophical issue which has been clearly pointed out to me as being outside the scope of this forum category.

 

[PeterDonis]

A portion of the event horizon interior can be light-like separated from us, I will obviously admit, but are you claiming that the remaining portion of its interior is space-like separated from us "now"?

*A* portion of the interior is, yes. More precisely: take any event outside the hole's horizon in the vacuum region (i.e., after the object that originally collapsed to form the hole has collapsed--to be more precise here as well, this is an event in the exterior vacuum region that has at least some portion of the collapsing matter, *before* it reached the horizon, in its past light cone). Call that event E. Then the interior of the black hole can be divided into three portions: a portion that is in the future light cone of event E, a portion that is lightlike separated from event E (on the boundary of E's future light cone), and a portion that is spacelike separated from event E.

[Edit: In view of your comment in the last part of post #52, I should clarify that these are the *only* three portions: together they comprise the entire black hole interior.]

I don't think PAllen or DaleSpam have said anything different from the above; but perhaps putting it in these more direct terms will help.

 

[PAllen]

We've basically hammered the same point from many different angles, but just because something is in my future light cone does not mean it exists today when we discuss it over coffee.

Exists is Ontology not physics. I thought we were going to try to stick to physics and math. Spacelike has a precise mathematical definition.

Additionally, the interior of the event horizon is not spacelike separated from us now if we use the wikipedia definition:

wikipedia is not a reliable reference.

You and DaleSpam seem to apply the first sentence but not the remaining.

What you are misunderstanding is that this wording must be modified in going from SR to GR, because there are no global frames in GR (frames are strictly local in GR). There are only global coordinates in GR. Thus, this statement becomes, there is a coordinate system such that two spacelike separated events are simultaneous. And also, the last part about no frame where they are in the same location translates, in GR, to there does not exist a timelike (or lightlike) path connecting them. Thus the concept of spacelike everyone here has been using is precisely conformant to the GR expression of this SR wording you've grabbed.

The proper distance between any external observer and the portion of the interior of the event horizon which is not like-like separated is infinite, which is not a real number value.

Again, simply false. The proper distance along any spacelike path connecting exterior and interior is finite.

Additionally, the causal order is not ambiguous.

False yet again. If an interior event receives a light signal from you, the event of your sending it is clearly in its past, and it is in your future. So, for an event earlier on a timelike world line through this event, the situation is that either of you may consider any time ordering you want. All you know is that it is before an event known to be in your future (before, because it occurs earlier on a timelike world line than an event you do know is in your future).

In a strange way it appears that a some of the internal portion of the event horizon is neither time-like, space-like, nor light-like separated from us.

Utter nonsense. You really need to actually read at least a first course in GR before making such statements.

All the more reason to question its existence, IMO, but this is boiling down to a semantic/philosophical issue which has been clearly pointed out to me as being outside the scope of this forum category.

Besides the philosophy, you continue to make mathematically false statements about what classical GR says. If, instead, you want to raise a discussion about where you think GR breaks down, that is a whole different discussion, that can occur scientifically if you are careful. The literature on gravastars (which require quantum corrections to classical GR) is a perfectly acceptable topic for these forums - it has been published in peer reviewed journals, and is not considered crank science.

 

[Dale]

A portion of the event horizon interior can be light-like separated from us, I will obviously admit, but are you claiming that the remaining portion of its interior is space-like separated from us "now"?

Yes. Take the standard static black hole spacetime and any event, A, outside the EH. There are events on the inside of the EH which are timelike separated, lightlike separated, and spacelike separated from A. The lightlike separated events are the ones which can receive a flash of light emitted at A. The timelike ones are those after the lightlike ones and the spacelike ones are those before.

 

[Dale]

The proper distance between any external observer and the portion of the interior of the event horizon which is not like-like separated is infinite, which is not a real number value.

False.

it appears that a some of the internal portion of the event horizon is neither time-like, space-like, nor light-like separated from us.

False, although I wonder if in some more complicated manifolds it could be true.

 

[PeterDonis]

False, although I wonder if in some more complicated manifolds it could be true.

It's hard to see how it could be true unless the manifold were really pathological, with multiple singularities or discontinuities that prevented lightlike geodesics from being extended indefinitely. If you can extend lightlike geodesics indefinitely from a given event, you can use them to partition the spacetime so the causal separation of every event from the given event is well-defined and has a single definite value (timelike, lightlike, or spacelike).

OTOH, there is at least one obvious example of a class of spacetimes where a pair of events can have *multiple* causal separations: any spacetime with closed timelike curves, such as the Godel universe.

 

[rjbeery]

Yes. Take the standard static black hole spacetime and any event, A, outside the EH. There are events on the inside of the EH which are timelike separated, lightlike separated, and spacelike separated from A. The lightlike separated events are the ones which can receive a flash of light emitted at A. The timelike ones are those after the lightlike ones and the spacelike ones are those before.

Question: if we exclude black holes, does the GR definition of "space-like separated" coincide with the definition I gave?

 

[PAllen]

False.

False, although I wonder if in some more complicated manifolds it could be true.

Certainly, in a traversible wormhole spacetime, you have events with both spacelike and timelike geodesics connecting them. Allowing for light going through the wormhole, it seems you might not have light cones with reasonable properties - e.g. interior, exterior. [Of course, exotic matter is required, but that's not a limiting factor for mathematical GR].

However, as we know, collapsing matter (at least in scenarios similar to OS collapse) produces no wormholes. Further, the wormhole in the eternal Kruskal geometry connect events on different sheets that have no other connection; thus it does not create causal ambiguity (events that can be both spacelike and timelike in their relationship).

 

[PeterDonis]

Question: if we exclude black holes, does the GR definition of "space-like separated" coincide with the definition I gave?

If you mean the Wikipedia definition, I would say no. The GR definition is just the generalization of the SR definition to curved spacetimes where there are no global inertial frames. But the correct invariant way to do the generalization is to use light cones, not reference frames. Given any event, the past and future light cones at that event are defined by taking all future and past directed null geodesics from the event and extending them indefinitely. Events are then spacelike separated from the given event if they are outside both the future and the past light cones of that event.

Note that this definition applies in any spacetime, whether a black hole is present or not, and it doesn't require defining any reference frames. The light cones are invariant features of the geometry of spacetime, so they can be defined independently of reference frames.

 

[PeterDonis]

Certainly, in a traversible wormhole spacetime, you have events with both spacelike and timelike geodesics connecting them.

Yes, because these spacetimes contain closed timelike curves. But the original question was about whether there can be a pair of events that are *not* connected by *any* geodesics, spacelike, timelike, *or* null. That seems to me to require much more pathological conditions than having multiple geodesics connecting the same pair of events.

 

[PAllen]

Question: if we exclude black holes, does the GR definition of "space-like separated" coincide with the definition I gave?

No, for all the reasons I gave in my response. You can't talk about frames at all in GR, irrespective of BH. You can talk about light cones, and impossibility of a timelike path.

 

[rjbeery]

The proper distance between any external observer and the portion of the interior of the event horizon which is not like-like separated is infinite, which is not a real number value.

False.

Yes, I erred but it is against my personal rules to edit a post after someone has replied to it. I was referring to the proper length to the singularity which is a prerequisite for the event horizon. If it's true that space-like separation and concepts of simultaneity must be reworded in order to work within the context of GR then so be it, but I don't see this as much different from the complaints to my original OP which claimed that any conclusion is possible if we adjust our definitions.

 

[PeterDonis]

If it's true that space-like separation and concepts of simultaneity must be reworded in order to work within the context of GR then so be it

It isn't true. The correct concepts in SR are the same as in GR; it's just that in SR, since there are global inertial frames, you can get away with rewording the concepts in terms of reference frames instead of light cones and still get the right answers.

 

[PAllen]

Yes, because these spacetimes contain closed timelike curves. But the original question was about whether there can be a pair of events that are *not* connected by *any* geodesics, spacelike, timelike, *or* null. That seems to me to require much more pathological conditions than having multiple geodesics connecting the same pair of events.

Multiple geodesics of the same type between events is routine, of course. Of different types requires, wormholes, warp bubbles, Godel, or something like that is necessary.

Your no geodesic possibility is interesting, and may depend on how you define geodesic. For example, consider a non-simply connected SR topology where the neighborhood (world tube) of the spacelike geodesic between two events is removed, leaving the points (and maybe tiny open ball around them. Then there is no geodesic satisfying the Euler-Lagrange equation between them; however there may be one or more spacelike paths with less proper length than any other paths (or not, depending on how you do the cut - you can do it so no path realizes GLB of proper lengths; or allow for such a path to exist). So is this a geodesic, if it exists?

Anyway, the above recipe, generalized to AF flat regions of a GR solution: just cut out tube with open boundary such that no path realizes the GLB. You now have no geodesic of any type between the events, even with the loose definition.

 

[PeterDonis]

Then there is no geodesic satisfying the Euler-Lagrange equation between them; however there may be one or more spacelike paths with less proper length than any other paths (or not, depending on how you do the cut - you can do it so no path realizes GLB of proper lengths; or allow for such a path to exist). So is this a geodesic, if it exists?

I would say no, since such a curve would not satisfy the geodesic equation. Consider the corresponding timelike case: cut out a world tube around a timelike geodesic but leave its endpoints still in the manifold. Then there would (given the appropriate type of cut) be a timelike curve of maximal proper time between the two events, but an observer following such a curve would not be in free fall; such an observer would feel a nonzero proper acceleration. So calling such a curve a "geodesic" would go against the key physical fact that observers following geodesic worldlines should be in free fall.

 

[PAllen]

I would say no, since such a curve would not satisfy the geodesic equation. Consider the corresponding timelike case: cut out a world tube around a timelike geodesic but leave its endpoints still in the manifold. Then there would (given the appropriate type of cut) be a timelike curve of maximal proper time between the two events, but an observer following such a curve would not be in free fall; such an observer would feel a nonzero proper acceleration. So calling such a curve a "geodesic" would go against the key physical fact that observers following geodesic worldlines should be in free fall.

From a physics point of view I would agree. The locally extremal (or parallel transport straight) property is the important property, not global properties.

 

[PAllen]

Even more (or less??) interesting is whether you can have a (pseudo-reimannian) manifold such that there is a pair of events connected only by mixed paths (no pure spacelike, timelike or lightlike path - forget geodesic). In 1+1 d this is trivial to achieve with a connected but not simply connected manifold. However, for 3+1 d I am baffled; I can't see a construction to achieve 'no non-mixed paths' between two events, without also achieving no paths at all between them. But I really don't know.

 

[Dale]

I was referring to the proper length to the singularity which is a prerequisite for the event horizon.

No, the singularity is not a prerequisite for an event horizon. However, even on the singularity there are events which are timelike, lightlike, and spacelike separated from any event outside the horizon. This is easiest to see on a Kruskal-Szekeres diagram.

The black hole spacetime is well behaved, except for right at the singularity. Take any event in the entire manifold. From that event you can define 3 regions:
-) All events inside the light cone
0) All events on light cone
+) All events outside the light cone

Region 0 is lightlike separated, region - is timelike separated, and region + is spacelike separated from the event. Regions - and 0 can be further subdivided into future (-f, 0f) directed and past (-p, 0p) directed lightlike and timelike intervals respectively. These regions cover the entire spacetime.

For any event outside the horizon there are events inside the horizon in regions +, 0f, -f, but not in regions 0p, -p. For any event inside the horizon there are events outside the horizon in regions +, 0p, -p, but not in regions 0f, -f. For any event anywhere in the spacetime the singularity is in regions +, 0f, -f, but not in regions 0p, -p.

 

[atyy]

They're using the one I gave in post #9: a black hole "exists" if the spacetime contains an event horizon.

Contains "when"?

There is no when. The spacetime is a 4-dimensional geometric object; the event horizon is an invariant geometric feature of that geometric object. The statement "the spacetime contains an event horizon" is therefore an invariant geometric statement; it's not associated with any "time". It's just a geometric fact, like the fact that the Earth's equator is a great circle.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.0064
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0512211

The first is a review which cites the second for providing the strongest evidence for an event horizon. They seem to say, well let's suppose there's a surface that exists at a certain time on which matter comes to rest, and look for it. Assuming GR and the absence of exotic phenomena, they can't find such a surface, which they say leads to the conclusion of an event horizon.

Edit: Reading PAllen's reference http://www.aei.mpg.de/~rezzolla/lnotes/mondragone/collapse.pdf quickly, they do talk about when an event horizon forms. They also use language like "Note that the apparent horizon is formed after the event horizon but not when the stellar surface crosses R = 2M". Is some simultaneity convention being used here? In which case, couldn't one attach a "when" to the existence of an event horizon?