Can detergent also evaporate beside water?

[Ephant]

Hi PhysicsForums,

My bed has 4 small plastic footing at each corner, and each footing is soaked in middle of small container of water with detergent (about 4 inches square container) to avoid ants from crawling up the bed in any footing. Can the detergent in the water also evaporate polluting the bedroom with detergent or only the water?

If the detergent can also evaporate. What better substance to add to the water so the ants trying to swim in the container can sink (detergent can make them sink when added to water).

Thank you.

 

[symbolipoint]

The detergent will not evaporate. Just the water (and maybe maybe some other liquid) will evaporate. If an alcohol is present, it too may evaporate, depending on its properties.

 

[Rive]

Can the detergent in the water also evaporate polluting the bedroom with detergent or only the water?

Detergents are usually pretty stable in this regard.
But the thing you buy in a shop may contain plenty of other things which might.
Also, stale water (even with soap or alike in it) may get 'lively' after some time.

 

[hmmm27]

If you can smell it, then it's evaporating. However, household detergents - dish, laundry, body - are not likely to be harmful to health.

 

[Bystander]

If the detergent can also evaporate. What better substance to add to the water so the ants trying to swim in the container can sink (detergent can make them sink when added to water).

How often were you planning on changing your "moats?" Rotting ants are going to generate a rather foul aroma.

 

[Ephant]

If you can smell it, then it's evaporating. However, household detergents - dish, laundry, body - are not likely to be harmful to health.

I was referring to liquid detergent which I use. There is also available in the market powder detergent. So when others explained detergent can evaporate. Is it liquid detergent or powder detergent?

So can liquid detergent evaporate or not? Why do you say if one can smell it then it evaporating. So it can evaporate?

 

[Borek]

Whatever you call a "liquid detergent" is most likely a mixture, containing many substances. Of these the real detergent (surfactant) is usually one of the least volatile substances present, so it won't evaporate, at least compared with other components of the "liquid detergent". Things you can smell are typically these other components.

 

[symbolipoint]

I was referring to liquid detergent which I use. There is also available in the market powder detergent. So when others explained detergent can evaporate. Is it liquid detergent or powder detergent?

So can liquid detergent evaporate or not? Why do you say if one can smell it then it evaporating. So it can evaporate?

WATER will evaporate. Any of certain alcohols (ethanol, isopropanol, maybe few others) will or may also evaporate. DETERGENTS will not evaporate.

 

[symbolipoint]

WATER will evaporate. Liquid detergents usually contain water. Any of certain alcohols (ethanol, isopropanol, maybe few others) will or may also evaporate. DETERGENTS will not evaporate.

 

[Ephant]

I already removed the detergent. Would anyone know a good replacement for detergent to lessen the surface tension of water so the ants can't swim and would sink and yet no unknown substances that can go up the air and even safe?

 

[Rive]

no unknown substances

If you could buy that still unidentified product then it should have some kind of datasheet, with ingredients, intended use and approvals listed.
So if you could please share with us the exact product, then we might be able to give a more detailed answer with less 'unknown substances'.

Anyway: I would pick a shower gel, shampoo or soap. They do contain perfumes (which will 'evaporate') but those are not 'unknown' and (expected to be) tested and approved, even for occasional ingestion.
Also, this way it can be one with a smell you like.

Ps.: don't forget to regularly change the water and clean the containers. More important than that 'detergent'.

 

[BillTre]

Ants are insects. They have a water repellent exoskeleton. They breath by bringing air into their bodies through little tubes (trachea) that have openings along their sides.
Insects like ants can be difficult to drown because their surface repels water. This can also let small insects (like ants) float.

Fly labs frequently use alcohols (probably 70%) or something like mineral oil to drown unwanted flies. These solutions work efficiently and last a long time in open air in the lab.

 

[symbolipoint]

Ants are insects. They have a water repellent exoskeleton. They breath by bringing air into their bodies through little tubes (trachea) that have openings along their sides.
Insects like ants can be difficult to drown because their surface repels water. This can also let small insects (like ants) float.

Fly labs frequently use alcohols (probably 70%) or something like mineral oil to drown unwanted flies. These solutions work efficiently and last a long time in open air in the lab.

The idea which @Ephant is using is that water containing dissolved detergent has reduced surface tension and this might overcome the water-repellency of the insects' exoskeletons.

 

[BillTre]

The idea which @Ephant is using is that water containing dissolved detergent has reduced surface tension and this might overcome the water-repellency of the insects' exoskeletons.

Yes, detergent does the same thing.
Its a choice among different materials that could do the same thing.

 

[symbolipoint]

Yes, detergent does the same thing.
Its a choice among different materials that could do the same thing.

Along that line of thought, this makes me wonder if a solution containing just water and glycerol would do the same thing as a detergent solution. Only a guess.

 

[chemisttree]

Pure glycerine or pure mineral oil will work.

 

[Tom.G]

Also consider, a trick to rid mosquito larva from standing water that is inaccessible is to pour a little oil on it, even cooking oil is reportedly effective.

It is a different process than what you are attempting, but may be worth a try.

Myself, I would just try using a little of whatever you use for hand soap (or possibly shampoo).

Cheers
Tom

 

[Ephant]

Pure glycerine or pure mineral oil will work.

Are you supposed to put only a few mineral oil on top of water or pure mineral oil in the container? And won't mineral oil evaporate causing you to smell it and isn't mineral oil flammable?

 

[BillTre]

A layer of oil on top of water will reduce evaporation and will be able to disrupt breathing by mosquito larvae living in the water. This is a common use. Not sure if it will cause small insects to sink into the water.

 

[chemisttree]

Pure means pure. No water

 

[Ephant]

A layer of oil on top of water will reduce evaporation and will be able to disrupt breathing by mosquito larvae living in the water. This is a common use. Not sure if it will cause small insects to sink into the water.

I changed the water every 5 days so no problem with larvae. I just want any ants which want to swim and float to the center sink down. So there is not even a calculation (from quantum chemistry due to lack of computing power?) that mineral oil can do that?

It seems there is no replacement for detergent. It is the case that whenever the surface tension of water gets lowered, the substance that can induce it is automatically called a detergent?

 

[symbolipoint]

It seems there is no replacement for detergent. It is the case that whenever the surface tension of water gets lowered, the substance that can induce it is automatically called a detergent?

Likely no. But detergents can do this lowering of surface tension.

 

[Tom.G]

It seems there is no replacement for detergent. It is the case that whenever the surface tension of water gets lowered, the substance that can induce it is automatically called a detergent?

Well, no. It is actually the other way around.

A Detergent is the name given to something that 'Cleans'.
A Surfactant is something that reduces the surface tension of a fluid, almost always water.

It turns out that Surfactants are very good at 'Cleaning' (removing unwanted material from a surface). That is why they are typically used in Detergents.

Since you want to use a common fluid, water, as a barrier, something is needed to reduce its Surface Tension ... that's what a surfactant does.
(you can actually float a sewing needle on clean water, it makes a good demonstration of surface tension)!

There are many surfactants so you can take your choice of which one(s) to use, while still using water.

Another, not very good, approach is to use a fluid with a much lower surface tension. The problem with that is lower surface tension liquids rapidly evaporate, for instance Ether or Gasoline.

Here are a couple articles on Surfactants and Detergents for some more background and details.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detergent

Perhaps some of the Chemistry experts on this site can help you choose a surfactant you can live with.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Ephant]

Well, no. It is actually the other way around.

A Detergent is the name given to something that 'Cleans'.
A Surfactant is something that reduces the surface tension of a fluid, almost always water.

It turns out that Surfactants are very good at 'Cleaning' (removing unwanted material from a surface). That is why they are typically used in Detergents.

Since you want to use a common fluid, water, as a barrier, something is needed to reduce its Surface Tension ... that's what a surfactant does.
(you can actually float a sewing needle on clean water, it makes a good demonstration of surface tension)!

There are many surfactants so you can take your choice of which one(s) to use, while still using water.

Another, not very good, approach is to use a fluid with a much lower surface tension. The problem with that is lower surface tension liquids rapidly evaporate, for instance Ether or Gasoline.

Here are a couple articles on Surfactants and Detergents for some more background and details.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detergent

Perhaps some of the Chemistry experts on this site can help you choose a surfactant you can live with.

Cheers,
Tom

Non-chemistry experts also welcomed to suggest about the surfactant asked.

[Mild insult deleted by the Mentors]

 

[Ephant]

At present, while awaiting the surfactant that can do it. I just put plain water and wait for it to evaporate after 5 days.

I heard about heavy water. Does it make the surface tension more and the ants walk on water even easier? Is there a light water where the surface tension is less? How do you electronically change the water molecules to act like surfactant?

 

[chemisttree]

I heard about heavy water. Does it make the surface tension more and the ants walk on water even easier? Is there a light water where the surface tension is less? How do you electronically change the water molecules to act like surfactant?

Heavy water surface tension is essentially the same as regular water. No such thing as light water unless you call regular water “light”.
You need to dissolve something in water to disrupt the network of hydrogen bonding to change surface tension. Alcohols, surfactants do that.

Edit: I see that heavy water sells for $20 for 5 g on eBay from Martec Isotopes.

 

[BillTre]

I think he meant hard water, not heavy water.

 

[Ephant]

With still no surfactant suggestions. I stopped using even water for fear molds can grow. So I need to know the following information meanwhile.

How much water should I add to the container such that it would evaporate before molds can grow? What's the formula for evaporation at temperature of 86 F and specific humidity of 70%?

 

[Tom.G]

Oh heck, just add a drop of Chlorine bleach to the water every time you refill the water container. There are ALWAYS mold spores and bacteria in the air, so even freshly distilled water will start collecting them as soon as it is exposed to the atmosphere.

 

[Borek]

What's the formula for evaporation at temperature of 86 F and specific humidity of 70%?

No such formula, as it it largely depends on the geometry and air movement.

Other then that, see @Tom.G 's post above.

 

[Nik_2213]

My father, who served in Monty's 8th Army, North Africa, claimed they stood table, bed and other 'fixture' furniture legs in open cans of waste engine oil to thwart the ants, scorpions, spiders etc etc. What legs etc they could not 'moat', such as 'movables' and tent-poles, they 'grease-banded'. a traditional gardener's trick. Commercial versions now widely available...

 

[Bruce_f]

Hmmm... A lively and wide-ranging trail...

I agree, detergent will not evaporate under 'room' conditions

I am a big fan of KISS "Keep It Simple .. Super" (Slight mod on the last S..)

So.. detergent and water which you are happy to wash your dishes with and perhaps get all over your hands, is a simple and harmless moat. Replace the solution whenever it gets gross (with deadants etc) - simple