Can Legislation Prevent Leaders from Misleading Congress into War?

[Chi Meson]

Listening to the farewell speech, right now.



God, how I dislike that man.

 

[binzing]

Woo...now we just have to support his sorry *** till he dies.

 

[turbo]

Good riddance, W. What a sorry excuse for a human being.

 

[Chi Meson]

It seems that all of the non-disasters of the last 8 years is being summed up in 30 minutes.

nope, it took only 13 minutes.

What the hell was that? Can anyone be more uninspiring if they tried? Did anyone actually believe that Iraq and Afghanistan are functioning democracies? Blarrrrrrrrrrghhhh!

Lance the boil! Get the pus out!

 

[Cyrus]

I thought it was a nice speech. I was listening to the radio, so I only had audio. He's come a long way and delivered it quite well.

 

[signerror]

Good riddance.

 

[SticksandStones]

Good riddance, W. What a sorry excuse for a human being.

He's not a total failure, he would make a good poster-child for birth control or abortion.

 

[Hurkyl]

Is there a point to this? Or do people just want to spew hate?

 

[humanino]

It's so cold that even W did not blow a fuse.

 

[lisab]

Is there a point to this? Or do people just want to spew hate?

After these 8 years, don't you think we should be allowed to vent a bit? Just a little, maybe?

 

[humanino]

After these 8 years, don't you think we should be allowed to vent a bit? Just a little, maybe?

The rest of us still alive can indeed get up and say "we never really needed you W".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiBxDk3dWYA

 

[russ_watters]

After these 8 years, don't you think we should be allowed to vent a bit? Just a little, maybe?

Yes, hate is ok, as long as it's pointed in the right direction.

 

[lisab]

Yes, hate is ok, as long as it's pointed in the right direction.

So, you don't think an emotional reaction toward those who govern us is justified. I'll remember that over the next 8 years .

 

[binzing]

Hurkyl aren't you from Canada? If yes, shut up, lol.

 

[russ_watters]

So, you don't think an emotional reaction toward those who govern us is justified.

Not that emotional, no.

I'll remember that over the next 8 years .

Please do. You'll never hear me talking that way about a President of the US.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Not that emotional, no.

Perhaps that how we ended up with someone like Bush - apathy.

 

[Cyrus]

Perhaps that how we ended up with someone like Bush - apathy.

I think the reason why we got him is because far too many people watch headline news, and don't seek good news. As a result, all they got was spoon fed 'they hate freedom' headlines. All they get is information at the surface.

 

[jostpuur]

Is there a point to this? Or do people just want to spew hate?

At least this makes arguments like "well if Bush is not liked, then where are the complaining people?" more difficult to use.

 

[turbo]

I think the reason why we got him is because far too many people watch headline news, and don't seek good news. As a result, all they got was spoon fed 'they hate freedom' headlines. All they get is information at the surface.

In the US, there IS no "good" news unless you can find some relatively unbiased cable-carried sources, since all broadcast news is filtered through the same corporate structures that build and maintain the military-industrial complex. You either get propaganda (major networks) or out-and-out right-wing indoctrination (FOX), with little else available. Try watching broadcast-only channels for a couple of weeks, and see if you can resist tearing your hair out when comparing what you see to international sources on the Internet.

 

[LowlyPion]

It seems even the revisionists don't have all that much stomach to defend this incompetent sidekick to special interests that has managed to mismanage and squander the burgeoning assets the nation was harvesting from increasing productivity at the outset of his term.

Cheney and Bush have been a total embarrassment with their manipulations and attempts to govern through deceit and distraction and all they have managed to do is bring unwise foreign adventure and economic ruin from unregulated greed that now sits on the shoulders of all those they were nominally supposed to shepherd.

Only 4 more days and that's been 8 years too long as it is as far as I'm concerned.

What I don't understand is how his approval rating is as high as 27%.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What I don't understand is how his approval rating is as high as 27%.

I would bet that this number could be correlated to Fox News viewers and hate radio listeners.

My uncle still thinks Saddam attacked NY. He also informed me last week that Obama will not be inagaurated because he's not a citizen. "You will see", he said confidently and with great patriotism.

 

[russ_watters]

Perhaps that how we ended up with someone like Bush - apathy.

Or perhaps the democrats put up a couple of crappy candidates those two elections (heck, Gore was in almost exactly the same position as McCain and lost for very similar reasons). Certainly a lack of excitement is a big part of why McCain didn't win, but lack of excitement doesn't equate to apathy, it is more likely to equate to rationality. When people get too excited, they stop thinking and that is a very dangerous thing. I would much prefer that people make rational decisions. Making decisions based on emotion leads to bad outcomes. People do what feels right instead of what is right. Heck, isn't that one of the main criticisms people have of Bush? That he went after Hussein for a family vendetta. That he let his emotions cloud his judgement due to his emotional dislike for the person. And that's exactly what this thread is about!

But I'm unusual - marketing rarely has a positive impact on my buying habits but often has a negative impact. I hear an annoying commercial and make a mental note not to buy the product being advertised. I want substance, not flash. Obama has proven to have flash: now he'll have to prove he has substance.

 

[LowlyPion]

I want substance, not flash.

Your stance on Sarah Palin then?

Where was her beef?

Other than marketing, what was her purpose in the campaign?

 

[russ_watters]

Your stance on Sarah Palin then?

I'm not a fan - I wanted Christy Whitman. Substance over flash. However, analyzing it objectively, I get why he did it: to try to attrack people like Ivan and others in this thread who want flash.

 

[russ_watters]

Let me be more specific:

Good riddance, W. What a sorry excuse for a human being.

I didn't like Clinton as President and certainly wouldn't want him as a friend. I think he's morally deficient. I would not describe him as a "sorry excuse for a human being", he's just flawed. A lot of people are flawed. If I ever met him, I'd be respectful, though - I get the feeling, many people here would relish the chance to spit in Bush's face. It's juvenile, not to mention self-defeating.

Woo...now we just have to support his sorry *** till he dies.

And though I didn't like him and that he had the distinction of being impeached, I wouldn't suggest he doesn't deserve his pension. That's just silly.

He's not a total failure, he would make a good poster-child for birth control or abortion.

Very helpful.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Or perhaps the democrats put up a couple of crappy candidates those two elections (heck, Gore was in almost exactly the same position as McCain and lost for very similar reasons). Certainly a lack of excitement is a big part of why McCain didn't win, but lack of excitement doesn't equate to apathy, it is more likely to equate to rationality. When people get too excited, they stop thinking and that is a very dangerous thing. I would much prefer that people make rational decisions. Making decisions based on emotion leads to bad outcomes. People do what feels right instead of what is right. Heck, isn't that one of the main criticisms people have of Bush? That he went after Hussein for a family vendetta. That he let his emotions cloud his judgement due to his emotional dislike for the person. And that's exactly what this thread is about!

But I'm unusual - marketing rarely has a positive impact on my buying habits but often has a negative impact. I hear an annoying commercial and make a mental note not to buy the product being advertised. I want substance, not flash. Obama has proven to have flash: now he'll have to prove he has substance.

Outrage was an entirely appropriate response to the Bush admin. This is a result of rational thinking.

What precisely has been flashy about Obama? Do you consider coherent sentences to be flashy?

 

[russ_watters]

Outrage was entirely an appropriate response to the Bush admin. This is a result of rational thinking.

Rational outrage is an oxymoron, as is rational exuberance.

What precisely has been flashy about Obama? Do you consider coherent sentences flash?

If that was a joke, it was only a little funny.

If you're serious, though, perhaps you should tell me: were you more excited about this candidate than most others you've voted for?

Heck, Ivan - I'm pretty sure I've heard you lament about Gore not being exciting enough to win when he was running.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Rational outrage is an oxymoron, as is rational exuberance. If that was a joke, it was only a little funny.

It's really not that hard to understand. One leads to the other. There are times when outrage is entirely justified by the facts. The failure to understand this was the great failing of the voting public in 2004; and it still is for some.

If you're serious, though, perhaps you should tell me: were you more excited about this candidate than most others you've voted for?

You made an allegation; support it with evidence.

I was excited about Obama because I listened to him speak for many hours. He is clearly the most talented, and probably the most intelligent candidate I have ever seen.

 

[russ_watters]

You made an allegation; support it with evidence.

No, I didn't, Ivan, you did:

Perhaps that how we ended up with someone like Bush - apathy.

apathy:
1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathy

If you want to be emotional, that's your prerogative, Ivan, but don't pretend you can have it both ways.

 

[turbo]

When Obama and Biden were asked questions by the press, the press got some pretty detailed (even policy-wonk level) answers. When McCain was asked questions, he fell back on status-quo (Bush Lite) answers, and when Palin was asked questions, she fell apart completely. Lately she has been accusing "Charlie" and "Katie" of sandbagging her, when they lobbed her very softball (nay, even T-ball set-up) questions. If giving detailed answers to policy questions is "flash", I think we need a lot more "flash" at the top.

Nobody is perfect. I expect Obama to be more intelligent, reasonable, and mature than "W", though that's setting the bar pretty low. Mobilizing the world's most powerful military to pursue a vendetta "excused" by lies is about as irresponsible as one can get. After all the death, destruction, and on-going suffering he caused, I don't see how he can possibly sleep at night, unless he is insane/delusional. His farewell press conference and prime-time speech were sickening in their lack of truth, substance, and personal responsibility. Truly, a man without a conscience.

 

[humanino]

Only 4 more days and that's been 8 years too long as it is as far as I'm concerned.

After W was re-elected, I was lucky enough to stumble upon a t-shirt with Munch's Schrei entitled 3 more years at Dulles airport. I love this t-shirt, because the painting had just been recovered (by now you've guessed it was in 2006), and I think this masterpiece is quite appropriate to the reaction I had when he was re-elected.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/The_Scream.jpg

 

[humanino]

Truly, a man without a conscience.

My deviant culture leads me to think that, with so little concern about human life, W does not deserve the title "man".

 

[turbo]

My deviant culture leads me to think that, with so little concern about human life, W does not deserve the title "man".

When I look back on Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, et al, I have to compare them to Gollum. Single-minded, fixated, and amoral. My Precious...

 

[LowlyPion]

I was wondering if maybe this collegial discussion shouldn't be moved to Politics from General, as I think there may be a possibility that partisan rhetoric might emerge.

 

[turbo]

I was wondering if maybe this collegial discussion shouldn't be moved to Politics from General, as I think there may be a possibility that partisan rhetoric might emerge.

Not on my part, I can assure you. I am very conservative, and I usually vote split-tickets. My revulsion with the Bush administration lies entirely with their actions, and not with their putative party affiliation.