Carroll's Derivation of the Born Rule in MWI with Unequal Amplitudes

In summary, "Carroll's Derivation of the Born Rule in MWI with Unequal Amplitudes" explores how the Born Rule, which provides a framework for predicting the probabilities of different outcomes in quantum mechanics, can be derived within the Many-Worlds Interpretation (MWI) when considering states with unequal amplitudes. Carroll argues that by analyzing the structure of quantum states and their associated probabilities, one can reconcile the MWI's deterministic nature with the probabilistic outcomes observed in experiments. This derivation emphasizes the importance of amplitude ratios and interactions in determining the likelihood of various measurement results, ultimately supporting the viability of MWI as a coherent interpretation of quantum phenomena.
  • #1
jbergman
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TL;DR Summary
The equal probability case of the Born rule is relatively easy to grok in the MWI discussion. I wanted to have a focused discussion on the case where the magnitude of the amplitudes are unequal and derivations from some of the literature in the field.
In Caroll and Seben's paper, Many Worlds, the Born Rule, and Self-Locating Uncertainty, they present a derivation of the Born rule.

For the equal probability case their derivation is based on the following principles.
  • Self Locating Uncertainty - "the condition of an observer who knows that the environment they experience occurs multiple times in the universe, but doesn’t know which example they are actually experiencing"
  • The Principle of Indifference - "if all you know is that you are one of N occurrences of a particular set of observer data, you should assign equal credence, 1/N, to each possibility"
But I want to focus on the unequal probability case. We have state of the universe with spin prepared such that by the Born rule ##P(\downarrow) = 2/3##.
$$| \Psi \rangle = | O \rangle (|\uparrow \rangle + \sqrt{2} | \downarrow \rangle)| E \rangle$$
According to Carroll, entanglement of the measurement happens before the observer registers so the state evolves to
$$| \Psi \rangle = | O \rangle (|\uparrow \rangle | E_{\uparrow} \rangle + \sqrt{2} | \downarrow \rangle | E_{\downarrow} \rangle)$$
Finally the observer sees the measurement ant the state of the observer changes on each branch.

$$| \Psi \rangle = | O_{\uparrow} \rangle |\uparrow \rangle | E_{\uparrow} \rangle + \sqrt{2} | O_{\downarrow} \rangle| \downarrow \rangle | E_{\downarrow} \rangle$$

Carroll himself points out that the principle of indifference might suggest that branch counting would give an equal probability for each outcome. However, Carroll adds another principle, "Epistemic Separability", which he argues that this isn't so.

Epistemic Separability is basically interpreted as saying that a unitary transformation that acts only on the environment doesn't affect the probabilities of the Observer/System subsystem. So in the unequal probabilities case they consider the state we described above which is after measurement but before the observer has registered the measurement (where we have relabeled ##E_{\downarrow}## as ##E_1##, etc., because we will need to consider more orthonormal states of the environment besides up and down.

$$| \Psi \rangle = | O \rangle (|\uparrow \rangle | E_1 \rangle + \sqrt{2} | \downarrow \rangle | E_2 \rangle)$$

They then consider a unitary transformation,

$$U = | \hat{E}_1 \rangle \langle E_1 | + \frac{(| \hat{E}_2 \rangle + | \hat{E}_3 \rangle )}{\sqrt{2}} \langle E_2 | + \frac{(| \hat{E}_2 \rangle - | \hat{E}_3 \rangle )}{\sqrt{2}} \langle E_3 | + \sum_{\mu > 3} | \hat{E}_{\mu} \rangle \langle E_{\mu} |$$

Then

$$ U | \Psi \rangle = | O \rangle (|\uparrow \rangle | \hat{E}_1 \rangle + | \downarrow \rangle | \hat{E}_2 \rangle + | \downarrow \rangle | \hat{E}_3 \rangle)$$

So, in essence they have applied a unitary transformation that only affects the environment that results in three states with equal amplitude and hence equal probabilities for each of the worlds. This leads to their conclusion that since ##\uparrow## occurs in one of the worlds and ##\downarrow## occurs in the other 2 that,
$$P(\uparrow | \Psi) = 1/2 P(\downarrow | \Psi) = 1/3$$

This argument is similar to Zurek's and essentially can be seen as saying that their is a freedom to introduce extra state from the environment such that we can arrange to have a set of orthonormal states/worlds such that they all have equal amplitude.

Overall, the argument seems logical, but a few things bother me. For one, it implies that branch counting is ok when we have equal probabilities but not when we have unequal probabilities. It also suggests that every state that has unequal probabilities is equivalent to a state with equal magnitude amplitudes when looking at a subsystem. Lastly, it doesn't seem to fit nicely with the description of worlds as decoherent orthonormal states. We have somehow had to introduce this additional unitary operator which we applied after to get more decoherence to achieve the appropriate branch counts.

I feel like the Principle of Indifference is not solid enough and instead we need a more physical explanation that allows to rely only on branch counts.
 
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  • #2
The principle of indifference (PoI) is easy to abuse. This page explains the issues.

"Simply stated, it suggests that if there are n possible outcomes and there is no reason to view one as more likely than another, then each should be assigned a probability of 1/n."
"However, this principle has to be used with great care. [Example] ...this type of counterexample can be ruled out by referring to the structure of the problem and arguing that there is sufficient reason to find three outcomes more likely than one."
"More serious problems arise when we apply the principle to everyday problems, which are often not endowed with sufficient symmetries."


The fact that we do have sufficient reason to think that nature cares about amplitude means we cannot apply the PoI to naive branch-counting. Carroll and Sebens are quite clear about how their argument works: "This route to the Born Rule has a simple physical interpretation. Take the wave function and write it as a sum over orthonormal basis vectors with equal amplitudes for each term in the sum (so that many terms may contribute to a single branch). Then the Born Rule is simply a matter of counting – every term in that sum contributes an equal probability."

Note that they are not saying "just count the branches". They are saying "count the terms you have just written." These terms are not Everettian branches, they are terms in an appropriate decomposition of an Everettian branch.

Of course, "every term in that sum contributes an equal probability" is only true if the outcomes in each term are independent. This means we can't just divide an awkward term into two half-sized ones. The outcome - if such a thing is even meaningful - would be the same in both cases and they won't "contribute an equal probability."

So, to derive the Born Rule using counting methods we need a formula for how the probabilities add, and another formula for how amplitudes add. (As spelled out in the quote from Carroll and Sebens above. Except they don't mention the formulae explicitly.) The formulae will generally both depend on N, so N can be eliminated, leaving probability as a function of amplitude.

Consider four cases:
1 The terms are orthogonal. The total or branch amplitude is then √N times the "term" amplitude. The outcomes are mutually exclusive so their probabilities can simply be added. i.e. their total is N times the "term" probability. This gives the Born Rule, P=√A
2 The terms are parallel. The total or branch amplitude is then N times the "term" amplitude. The probabilities (if that's even a meaningful concept) are for 100% correlated outcomes, so the total probability is the same as a single "term" probability, i.e. 1 x the "term" probability. The Born Rule is replaced by P=A. That's also a good result. It shows that the proper Born Rule requires orthogonality - making decoherence an integral part of QM.
3 The terms have all sorts of phases. You might be able to use a statistical argument, but it wouldn't be counting.
4 The terms have some other statistics due to hidden variables or a dash of superdeterminism. You're probably sunk. :oldbiggrin:


Edited for typos and spellos
 
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  • #3
kered rettop said:
The fact that we do have sufficient reason to think that nature cares about amplitude means we cannot apply the PoI to naive branch-counting. Carroll and Sebens are quite clear about how their argument works: "This route to the Born Rule has a simple physical interpretation. Take the wave function and write it as a sum over orthonormal basis vectors with equal amplitudes for each term in the sum (so that many terms may contribute to a single branch). Then the Born Rule is simply a matter of counting – every term in that sum contributes an equal probability."

Note that they are not saying "just count the branches". They are saying "count the terms you have just written." These terms are not Everettian branches, they are terms in an appropriate decomposition of an Everettian branch.
I disagree with your last sentence, "These terms are not Everettian branches, they are terms in an appropriate decomposition of an Everettian branch".

In Saunders paper, he actually implies the opposite is true, i.e, that there are a large number of decoherent branches associated with each term.

The way I view the decomposition into orthonormal states is that we are decomposing into logically separate worlds which actually may result in many physical branches but that all have the same properties with respect to the subsystems of interest.

I have to look more closely at that quote you provided since it seems to suggest Carroll agrees with your reading.
 
  • #4
jbergman said:
I disagree with your last sentence, "These terms are not Everettian branches, they are terms in an appropriate decomposition of an Everettian branch".

In Saunders paper, he actually implies the opposite is true, i.e, that there are a large number of decoherent branches associated with each term.

The way I view the decomposition into orthonormal states is that we are decomposing into logically separate worlds which actually may result in many physical branches but that all have the same properties with respect to the subsystems of interest.

I have to look more closely at that quote you provided since it seems to suggest Carroll agrees with your reading.
Looking more closely, I see what you are saying. For example looking at the state I gave of,

$$ U | \Psi \rangle = | O \rangle (|\uparrow \rangle | \hat{E}_1 \rangle + | \downarrow \rangle | \hat{E}_2 \rangle + | \downarrow \rangle | \hat{E}_3 \rangle)$$

We see that two of the terms could be considered as belonging to one branch and another term as belonging to another.

Looking more closely at Carroll and Seben's argument it actually seems to rely primarily on the principle of indifference and the principle of epistemic separability and hence doesn't really make much of a physical argument at all which still bothers me. Saunders has an interesting paper that looks like an interesting alternative that I am still digesting. https://arxiv.org/abs/2201.06087
 
  • #5
jbergman said:
We see that two of the terms could be considered as belonging to one branch and another term as belonging to another.
That is my understanding of how the MWI defines branches: by macroscopically distinguishable outcomes. So any "branch" will in fact not be a single microscopic quantum state but a subspace of the Hilbert space containing a huge number of microscopic quantum states, all of which have the same macroscopic properties. In other words, the kets ##\ket{\uparrow}## and ##\ket{\downarrow}## are macroscopically distinguishable, but the kets ##\ket{E_2}## and ##\ket{E_3}## are not (and in fact the ket ##\ket{E_1}## would not need to be distinguishable from those two either, since we could take all of the distinguishable parts and fold them into ##\ket{\uparrow}##, so that ket now describes all of the macroscopic properties that correspond to "spin up observed").
 
  • #6
PeterDonis said:
That is my understanding of how the MWI defines branches: by macroscopically distinguishable outcomes. So any "branch" will in fact not be a single microscopic quantum state but a subspace of the Hilbert space containing a huge number of microscopic quantum states, all of which have the same macroscopic properties. In other words, the kets ##\ket{\uparrow}## and ##\ket{\downarrow}## are macroscopically distinguishable, but the kets ##\ket{E_2}## and ##\ket{E_3}## are not (and in fact the ket ##\ket{E_1}## would not need to be distinguishable from those two either, since we could take all of the distinguishable parts and fold them into ##\ket{\uparrow}##, so that ket now describes all of the macroscopic properties that correspond to "spin up observed").
We have to be a bit careful. This is related to the preferred basis problem. There are many different ways to choose a basis for a Hilbert space. In some of those, a "world" might be the sum of many basis vectors and in others it might not.
 
  • #7
jbergman said:
This is related to the preferred basis problem.
Sort of. Defining a subspace of the Hilbert space that consists of all states with the same macroscopic properties does require defining which macroscopic properties you are going to use. Doing that can be viewed as choosing a basis--for example, choosing the direction for the spin measurement in your example. But the subspace you obtain is basis independent. For example, the subspaces you get for the "up" and "down" results of a spin-z measurement are the same even if you choose to write the states in, say, the spin-x basis; the states in each subspace look different mathematically, but physically they're the same states.
 
  • #8
PeterDonis said:
Sort of. Defining a subspace of the Hilbert space that consists of all states with the same macroscopic properties does require defining which macroscopic properties you are going to use. Doing that can be viewed as choosing a basis--for example, choosing the direction for the spin measurement in your example. But the subspace you obtain is basis independent. For example, the subspaces you get for the "up" and "down" results of a spin-z measurement are the same even if you choose to write the states in, say, the spin-x basis; the states in each subspace look different mathematically, but physically they're the same states.
A pure state is just a vector so I'm not sure why you bring subspaces into the discussion. What I would say is that the vector components will look different in a different basis, but as you say it is the same vector. So, I didn't quite get your comment about a large number of microstates corresponding to a macrostate.
 
  • #9
jbergman said:
A pure state is just a vector so I'm not sure why you bring subspaces into the discussion
A ket can represent a single vector (more precisely, ray), or it can represent a subspace. In the cases under discussion, where we are explicitly including an environment with a huge number of degrees of freedom and we are talking about macroscopically distinguishable measurement results, the latter is always going to be the case, because a measurement result like "observed spin-z up" corresponds to a huge number of possible quantum states of the measuring device and its environment, not just one.

jbergman said:
I didn't quite get your comment about a large number of microstates corresponding to a macrostate.
As above, for any macroscopic measuring device, a macrostate like "observed spin-z up" will correspond to huge number of quantum microstates, not just one.
 
  • #10
jbergman said:
Looking more closely, I see what you are saying. For example looking at the state I gave of,

$$ U | \Psi \rangle = | O \rangle (|\uparrow \rangle | \hat{E}_1 \rangle + | \downarrow \rangle | \hat{E}_2 \rangle + | \downarrow \rangle | \hat{E}_3 \rangle)$$

We see that two of the terms could be considered as belonging to one branch and another term as belonging to another.
There's no "could be considered" about it"! They do by the definition of "branch" as a macroscopic state corresponding to a macroscopic world with a particular outcome.

jbergman said:
Looking more closely at Carroll and Seben's argument it actually seems to rely primarily on the principle of indifference and the principle of epistemic separability and hence doesn't really make much of a physical argument at all which still bothers me. Saunders has an interesting paper that looks like an interesting alternative that I am still digesting. https://arxiv.org/abs/2201.06087
ES reduces the slippery argument that "all my substates are equivalent so I assign equal probabilities to them" to the more plausible-sounding "probabilities should not depend on how two air molecules interact the other side of the room". Etc. That's a physical argument. And the principle of indifference no longer has to be applied to an ensemble of sub-worlds. If it's still required at all, it is only to an ensemble of environmental configurations.
 
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  • #11
kered rettop said:
There's no "could be" about it. They do by the definition of "branch" as a macroscopic state corresponding to a macroscopic world with a particular outcome.
A branch is the state corresponding to macroscopic world. The particular outcome bit is false. In fact, I can have two spin down branches that are separately decoherent because of other entanglement like the air molecules you described. Those are not one macroscopic world, but instead two separate macroscopic worlds.
 
  • #12
jbergman said:
A branch is the state corresponding to macroscopic world.
A "macroscopic world" does not correspond to a single quantum state. A given macroscopic state--for example, a macroscopic measuring device that registers the result "observed z-spin up"--can be realized by any of a huge number of microscopic quantum states of the atoms that compose the device, and which particular one of those states the macroscopic device is in will fluctuate from moment to moment. You have to take that into account in any proper understanding of what a "macroscopic world" is.

jbergman said:
The particular outcome bit is false.
No, your counterclaim is false.

jbergman said:
In fact, I can have two spin down branches that are separately decoherent because of other entanglement like the air molecules you described. Those are not one macroscopic world, but instead two separate macroscopic worlds.
If the air molecule interactions do not affect any macroscopic variable (such as temperature, pressure, etc.), then they do not result in any branching of "macroscopic worlds".

I strongly suggest that you take a step back and consider carefully what you are saying. As far as I can tell, your claims have no basis in any references that discuss the MWI, certainly not in the Carroll reference that is under discussion in this thread.
 
  • #13
jbergman said:
A branch is the state corresponding to macroscopic world. The particular outcome bit is false. In fact, I can have two spin down branches that are separately decoherent because of other entanglement like the air molecules you described. Those are not one macroscopic world, but instead two separate macroscopic worlds.
Not so. Worlds are characterised by the macroscopic phenomena, the observable outcomes. They are a single world. The objects you refer to are sub-branches. This is merely semantics and has no bearing on the validity of Carroll and Sebens's arguments.
 
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  • #14
PeterDonis said:
If the air molecule interactions do not affect any macroscopic variable (such as temperature, pressure, etc.), then they do not result in any branching of "macroscopic worlds".
I agree that macroscopic state must be affected. You edited out the part about entanglement before I mentioned the molecules. If a large enough # of other interactions occur to change some state like temperature then you have a different decoherent branch.

That may have nothing to do with whether the spin was measured up or down. I will cite Saunders paper later where he specifically talks about this scenario.
 
  • #15
kered rettop said:
Not so. Worlds are characterised by the macroscopic phenomena, the observable outcomes. They are a single world. The objects you refer to are sub-branches. This, by the way, is pure semantics and has no bearing on the validity of Carroll and Seben's arguments.
I agree about macroscopic phenomena, but you seem to suggest that all of the spin down parts of the wavefunction were in a single world. I was disputing that claim because you could have other macroscopic phenomena that changed besides that.

I also agree that it has no bearing on their argument.
 
  • #16
jbergman said:
If a large enough # of other interactions occur to change some state like temperature then you have a different decoherent branch.
Yes, but "entanglement" by itself doesn't do that. For a macroscopic state like temperature to change, an interaction that exchanges energy between the environment and some macroscopic object needs to happen. Just internal interactions between air molecules doesn't do that.

jbergman said:
you seem to suggest that all of the spin down parts of the wavefunction were in a single world.
In the context of that particular measurement being made, yes.

jbergman said:
I was disputing that claim because you could have other macroscopic phenomena that changed besides that.
Not just "other macroscopic phenomena", but macroscopic phenomena that depend on quantum uncertainty, like a measurement result. Of course not all such phenomena are measurement results, but on the other hand the category of such phenomena is a lot narrower than "well, pretty much everything that happens at all".
 
  • #17
PeterDonis said:
A ket can represent a single vector (more precisely, ray), or it can represent a subspace. In the cases under discussion, where we are explicitly including an environment with a huge number of degrees of freedom and we are talking about macroscopically distinguishable measurement results.
This is false. Please show an example where a ket is a subspace (of dimension > 1). Maybe you are thinking about density matrices.

PeterDonis said:
As above, for any macroscopic measuring device, a macrostate like "observed spin-z up" will correspond to huge number of quantum microstates, not just one.
Yes. But at a single moment in time it will only occupy a single microstate.
 
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  • #18
jbergman said:
I agree that macroscopic state must be affected. You edited out the part about entanglement before I mentioned the molecules. If a large enough # of other interactions occur to change some state like temperature then you have a different decoherent branch.
Yes, and if they don't then you don't. If you want to talk about probabilites then you need to specify which measured property(ies) you're talking about. If it's spin then all the states with spin-up belong in the spin-up world, regardless of temperature.
 
  • #19
jbergman said:
Please show an example where a ket is a subspace (of dimension > 1).
Um, every ket that has been written down in this thread? All of those kets refer to systems with very large numbers of degrees of freedom, in which there are a very large number of microstates that all correspond to the same macroscopic parameter (for example, "observed z-spin up" for ##\ket{\uparrow}##). None of them correspond to a simple single state of a simple system like a qubit.
 
  • #20
On the topic of branches, from Saunders' Branch Counting in the Everett Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics,

It thus follows from decoherence theory that huge numbers of branches are produced in a single run of any realistic experiment. For each outcome there are large numbers of branches, differing in ways irrelevant to the outcome.
 
  • #22
PeterDonis said:
The claims there are, AFAIK, debatable (to say the least). I don't think they represent any kind of broad consensus even among MWI proponents.

(Note, btw, that this reference is not a peer-reviewed paper, it's just one particular person's opinion.)
It was published here.
 
  • #23
jbergman said:
I agree about macroscopic phenomena, but you seem to suggest that all of the spin down parts of the wavefunction were in a single world. I was disputing that claim because you could have other macroscopic phenomena that changed besides that.
That is exactly what I'm "claiming". Alice measures a spin and creates a spin-up and a spin-down world. Bob measure temperature and creates an infinite ensemble of temperature-worlds. The splits intersect to create an infinite ensemble of [spin, temperature] worlds. Seems simple enough to me!
 
  • #24
jbergman said:
It was published here.
That was not at all evident from the link you originally posted. If you are posting a reference to a published paper, please post the reference to the actual publication. (If it's an arxiv link, post a link to the arxiv preprint page, not the PDF itself, since the PDF in this case had no publication information whatever. But a link to the actual journal article page, as you have given now, is even better.)
 
  • #25
kered rettop said:
That is exactly what I'm "claiming". Alice measures a spin and creates a spin-up and a spin-down world. Bob measure temperature and creates an infinite ensemble of temperature-worlds. The splits intersect to create an infinite ensemble of [spin, temperature] worlds. Seems simple enough to me!
Again from Saunder's paper, this suggests to me that the situation is more complicated, but I agree that Carroll's argument doesn't rely on anything. Instead his simple symmetry arguments justify his conclusion.

Subsequent landmark papers [1720] barely mentioned the concept of branching, but showed that in scattering environments (gasses and radiation baths), coherent states for much smaller masses, going down to large molecules, obey quasi-classical equations (‘quasi-classical' as going beyond classical Hamiltonian mechanics—as including friction, for example). But then they are branches in our sense.7 It follows that a delocalized state of masses of the order of large molecules (and anything greater), in a scattering environment involving much lighter degrees of freedom, branches into localized states, each evolving quasi-classically, unable to interfere with each other. The suppression of interference is moreover extremely rapid; in gases at ordinary temperatures, it is much faster than thermal relaxation times.8

These examples are important because thermal environments are ubiquitous; for a tiny speck of dust, and anything larger, even the cosmic microwave background will do. They are called examples of ‘quantum Brownian motion', because the dissipation term is linear in the velocity. There are many other kinds of decoherence (see, for example, [23]), but they fit the same mould: the Everett interpretation does not just concern the macroscopic, it concerns the emergence of dynamics at near-microscopic scales as well. And in quantum Brownian motion, molecular degrees of freedom do not only couple to the environment, they couple with each other—whether by collisions, near-neighbour interactions, or exchanges of phonons. Superpositions of localized states will be produced all the time, for example, of reflected and transmitted states, produced in collisions, which since differing in velocities, rapidly decohere, hence produce branching; no special Hamiltonian (as in chaos) is needed. The implication is that for macroscopic numbers of degrees of freedom at ordinary temperatures, branching in Everett's sense is enormous, rapid and ubiquitous.
 
  • #26
jbergman said:
Again from Saunder's paper, this suggests to me that the situation is more complicated, but I agree that Carroll's argument doesn't rely on anything. Instead his simple symmetry arguments justify his conclusion.
How do you square that? If simple symmetry arguments justify Carroll and Sebens's conclusion, how can the situation be more complicated? The slab of text you quoted from Saunders doesn't seem to have any bearing on their argument: it just tells the reader that decoherence is everywhere.
 
  • #27
kered rettop said:
How do you square that? If simple symmetry arguments justify Carroll and Sebens's conclusion, how can the situation be more complicated? The slab of text you quoted from Saunders doesn't seem to have any bearing on their argument: it just tells the reader that decoherence is everywhere.
By situation, I mean physical branches are hard to understand and reason about. Carroll and Sebens have come up with an approach that makes that largely unnecessary by allowing one to basically ignore transformations to the environment outside of the subsystem of interest.

I was hoping that there might be another way to understand things more directly in terms of counts of physical branches, but that may not be possible.
 
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  • #28
Surely whether the change is macroscopic or microscopic does not have any bearing on whether or not there's several branches in MWI?

If I throw a tennis ball against the wall in virtually every world it will bounce back, it doesn't have tunnel through the wall for it to be counted as having created several branches.
 
  • #29
Quantumental said:
Surely whether the change is macroscopic or microscopic does not have any bearing on whether or not there's several branches in MWI?

If I throw a tennis ball against the wall in virtually every world it will bounce back, it doesn't have tunnel through the wall for it to be counted as having created several branches.
Not sure what the tennis ball is intended to illustrate. But I believe you are correct. That was basically what the quote from the Saunders article I mentioned above was supposed to illuminate.
 
  • #30
Quantumental said:
Surely whether the change is macroscopic or microscopic does not have any bearing on whether or not there's several branches in MWI?
"Macroscopic" isn't quite the right word; the right word is "decoherence", since that is actually what defines "branches" in the MWI. I should have been more precise about that earlier. (The original MWI was developed before decoherence theory, so it had to rely on vague terms like "macroscopic" and "measurement" to define when branching happened, but it doesn't need that now; "decoherence" is both more precise and better grounded in the actual dynamics.)
 
  • #31
jbergman said:
this suggests to me that the situation is more complicated
Saunders is trying to describe it as more complicated, but I'm not convinced his description is actually correct.

For example, consider a gas in a box in thermal equilibrium. The gas molecules are constantly interacting, and according to Saunders, that means that countless decoherent branches are constantly being created. But is that really correct? Why do the interactions decohere? They don't change the temperature, pressure, density, volume, etc. of the gas. I get that the interactions mean we can't, in principle, treat the gas molecules as having definite microscopic positions and velocities which we just don't know, as classical statistical mechanics does--but as a matter of actual fact, classical statistical mechanics works just fine in this domain. Adding QM to the mix doesn't really change anything. So where is the decoherence?

jbergman said:
Carroll and Sebens have come up with an approach that makes that largely unnecessary by allowing one to basically ignore transformations to the environment outside of the subsystem of interest.
But in many cases, the system is its own "environment". For example, consider the gas in the box above. Suppose we run a Schrodinger's cat type experiment, where we have a radioactive atom, and if it decays, we move a piston that changes the volume of the gas (and therefore also changes other thermodynamic parameters), otherwise we leave the gas alone. The two alternative outcomes (gas volume changed, gas volume not changed) will decohere, so we have two branches from that decoherence process. But that decoherence happens just within the gas; we don't need to invoke any interaction with the outside environment for it to happen. (We do have to interact with the gas from the outside to measure whether its volume and other properties have changed, but the decoherence happens whether we measure the gas or not.)

I think Carroll and Sebens would say that, in this case, we have two branches. But it seems like Saunders would say we have a huge number of branches, that fall into two categories that are all we can distinguish. And since no interaction with the environment is required, on Saunders' view, to create all those huge number of branches, I'm not sure how Carroll and Sebens would rebut Saunders' view in this case, unless they would take the position I take above, that there isn't any decoherence at all within each of the two branches--the gas molecule interactions, if we hold the thermodynamic variables as fixed, do not decohere anything beyond what was already decohered in each branch (volume changed, volume not changed).
 
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  • #32
PeterDonis said:
Saunders is trying to describe it as more complicated, but I'm not convinced his description is actually correct.

For example, consider a gas in a box in thermal equilibrium. The gas molecules are constantly interacting, and according to Saunders, that means that countless decoherent branches are constantly being created. But is that really correct? Why do the interactions decohere? They don't change the temperature, pressure, density, volume, etc. of the gas. I get that the interactions mean we can't, in principle, treat the gas molecules as having definite microscopic positions and velocities which we just don't know, as classical statistical mechanics does--but as a matter of actual fact, classical statistical mechanics works just fine in this domain. Adding QM to the mix doesn't really change anything. So where is the decoherence?
I am still working on fully understanding decoherence. This is probably a topic for another thread, because I think it is a key part in understanding MWI branches.
 
  • #33
jbergman said:
I am still working on fully understanding decoherence. This is probably a topic for another thread
Or several. :wink: I believe there have been some previous PF threads on the topic, including some good references to the literature; it might be worth searching PF.
 
  • #34
PeterDonis said:
Saunders is trying to describe it as more complicated, but I'm not convinced his description is actually correct.

For example, consider a gas in a box in thermal equilibrium. The gas molecules are constantly interacting, and according to Saunders, that means that countless decoherent branches are constantly being created. But is that really correct? Why do the interactions decohere? They don't change the temperature, pressure, density, volume, etc. of the gas. I get that the interactions mean we can't, in principle, treat the gas molecules as having definite microscopic positions and velocities which we just don't know, as classical statistical mechanics does--but as a matter of actual fact, classical statistical mechanics works just fine in this domain. Adding QM to the mix doesn't really change anything. So where is the decoherence?


But in many cases, the system is its own "environment". For example, consider the gas in the box above. Suppose we run a Schrodinger's cat type experiment, where we have a radioactive atom, and if it decays, we move a piston that changes the volume of the gas (and therefore also changes other thermodynamic parameters), otherwise we leave the gas alone. The two alternative outcomes (gas volume changed, gas volume not changed) will decohere, so we have two branches from that decoherence process. But that decoherence happens just within the gas; we don't need to invoke any interaction with the outside environment for it to happen. (We do have to interact with the gas from the outside to measure whether its volume and other properties have changed, but the decoherence happens whether we measure the gas or not.)

I think Carroll and Sebens would say that, in this case, we have two branches. But it seems like Saunders would say we have a huge number of branches, that fall into two categories that are all we can distinguish. And since no interaction with the environment is required, on Saunders' view, to create all those huge number of branches, I'm not sure how Carroll and Sebens would rebut Saunders' view in this case, unless they would take the position I take above, that there isn't any decoherence at all within each of the two branches--the gas molecule interactions, if we hold the thermodynamic variables as fixed, do not decohere anything beyond what was already decohered in each branch (volume changed, volume not changed).
Carroll and Sebens use observable outcomes to structure the branching, as they are talking about many worlds. So they say there are two branches. However they do also create sub-branches like the ones Saunders apparently refers to as branches. So a different name is needed: it's just semantics.

I don't think distinguishability is relevant here. As I understand it, decoherence means loss of phase relationships, which is guaranteed by the orthogonality of the components after enough interactions have occurred. Distinguishability is a result in some situations, it is not a necessary condition for something to be called decoherence, neither is it sufficient.

But in that case everyone's branches are already decohered. Which means that there can be no further decoherence. So, yes, "there isn't any decoherence ]at all[ within each of the two branches". However, "at all" may be an overstatement. What happens is a microscopic interaction creates a coherent superposition. Which promptly decoheres. Does that spoil anything?

I hope that was coherent enough :rolleyes:.
 
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  • #35
kered rettop said:
What happens is a microscopic interaction creates a coherent superposition. Which promptly decoheres.
I'm not sure this is true. Microscopic interactions are what decohere things in the first place. For example, in my gas in the box Schrodinger's cat-type experiment, microscopic interactions within the gas on the two different branches (volume changed, volume not changed) are what decohere the branches. Those same microscopic interactions can't also be creating coherent superpositions.
 

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