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I guess by this you mean something like the Gavity Probe B setup?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Probe_B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Probe_B
Sorry to resume this post. I was wondering if the "analogy" between spacetime and 2D surface really makes sense. From what we said it is possible for an observer traveling along a path through spacetime to know if its path is actually a geodesic without (locally) looking off its path (basically it suffices to have an accelerometer attached to it).PeterDonis said:The question the OP is trying to answer is whether the path the observer travels is a geodesic, and whether there is a local way of knowing that. Obviously you can know it if you know the global geometry and how the observer's path fits into that global geometry. But that's not a local criterion.
cianfa72 said:Sorry to resume this post. I was wondering if the "analogy" between spacetime and 2D surface really makes sense. From what we said it is possible for an observer traveling along a path through spacetime to know if its path is actually a geodesic without (locally) looking off its path (basically it suffices to have an accelerometer attached to it).
What about an observer (let me say an 'ant') traveling along a path on a 2D surface ? From the discussion above it seems, otherwise, it must perform (locally) measurements off its path (e.g. tracing locally a 'geodesic' triangle and measuring the sum of its angles). By the way that means a metric has to defined for the 'manifold surface' (otherwise it makes no sense to talk about angle measurements). Thus locally -- from an operational point of view -- how does the ant detect the 'curvature' (if any) in the case a metric is not defined for the surface ? I'm not sure if 'geodesic deviation' could help in that case...
pervect said:It seems to me that we can tell if three points are colinear on a plane without going off the path, by insisting that if we have three points A, B, C, the distance from A to C is the sum of the distance from A to B and B to C.
cianfa72 said:I was wondering if the "analogy" between spacetime and 2D surface really makes sense.
cianfa72 said:From what we said it is possible for an observer traveling along a path through spacetime to know if its path is actually a geodesic without (locally) looking off its path (basically it suffices to have an accelerometer attached to it).
Thus, following your reasoning, the 2-D space is actually the "analogue" of the 3-D space of an observer at a given coordinate time ##t## (assuming a chart has been chosen for a spacetime region around it). The set of the spacelike separated points (events) from it defines its 3-D rest space at that given (coordinate) time. To detect the curvature (if any) of spacelike paths starting from it (basically the curvature of the 3-D space locally around it as defined before) he must actually perform measurements involving a neighborhood around it.PeterDonis said:And in the analogy with ordinary 2-D space, all paths in the latter space are spacelike. So the analogy between spacetime and ordinary 2-D space breaks down here; spacetime has timelike paths, and you need timelike paths for the concept of "accelerometer" as a way to measure path curvature without "going off the path" to make sense.
An analogy is not something where everything is the same, just some aspects. The analogous part here is that both paths are geodesics. However, experimentally testing for following geodesics in space-time is different than experimentally testing following geodesics on a surface.cianfa72 said:Sorry to resume this post. I was wondering if the "analogy" between spacetime and 2D surface really makes sense. From what we said it is possible for an observer traveling along a path through spacetime to know if its path is actually a geodesic without (locally) looking off its path (basically it suffices to have an accelerometer attached to it).
What about an observer (let me say an 'ant') traveling along a path on a 2D surface ? From the discussion above it seems, otherwise, it must perform (locally) measurements off its path (e.g. tracing locally a 'geodesic' triangle and measuring the sum of its angles).
cianfa72 said:Thus, following your reasoning, the 2-D space is actually the "analogue" of the 3-D space of an observer at a given coordinate time ##t##
Why not ? Just to make it simple, take for instance a 'static' spacetime and a congruence of observer's timelike paths through it. We can choose a coordinate system such that events having a given coordinate time ##t## belong to a spacelike hypersurface (orthogonal to each observer's timelike tangent vector). It should represent the "space" at that given coordinate time ##t##.PeterDonis said:No, it isn't. The analogy simply breaks down.
cianfa72 said:Why not ?
cianfa72 said:take for instance a 'static' spacetime and a congruence of observer's timelike paths through it. We can choose a coordinate system such that events having a given coordinate time belong to a spacelike hypersurface (orthogonal to each observer's timelike tangent vector). It should represent the "space" at that given coordinate time .
pervect said:One way of writing the geodesic equation, using a metric, is that ##\nabla_u u = 0##. Here u is the 4-velocity, the tangent to a curve in space-time. ##\nabla_u## is a sort of a derivative operator, the directional derivative.
pervect said:It's a bit of a tricky question as to whether the directional derivative operator really needs to know about points not on the curve.
pervect said:Parallel transport can be defined with a connection without a metric, for instance using the geometric construction of Schild's ladder. And parallel transport can be used to tell if a spatial slice is curved or not - in a curved space, parallel transport around a closed loop for all possible closed loops is only possible in the absence of curvature.
PeterDonis said:Here a different notion of "curvature" is being used: curvature of spacetime, not curvature of a particular curve in spacetime. The two are distinct. To evaluate the curvature of spacetime does always require knowledge of physical quantities in an open neighborhood--you can't do it along a single curve. But that is a separate question from the question of what it takes to evaluate path curvature of a single curve.
Maybe I was unclear about it. The analogy I have been talking about since post #37 is not between an 1 + 1 spacetime and an ordinary 2-D curved surface (it definitely does not apply for the reasons you highlighted). My point is about the 'spatial' part of a 2 + 1 spacetime and the 'spatial' part of 'our' 3 + 1 spacetime (taking in account obviously their different dimensions: 2 for the first and 3 for the latter).PeterDonis said:The issue is that doing that is irrelevant to the analogy we were discussing between an ordinary 2-D curved surface, which has a positive definite metric, and 1 x 1 spacetime, which does not. That analogy breaks down when you try to find something in the 2-D curved surface case that corresponds to an accelerometer in the spacetime case. No amount of discussion of how to take a 3-D spacelike surface of constant time from a 4-D spacetime will fix that problem.
Of course you can make the purely spatial analogy 2D <-> 3D. But to explain how gravity works in GR, you have to include the time dimension. For example to explain why an object initially at rest starts falling.cianfa72 said:My point is about the 'spatial' part of a 2 + 1 spacetime and the 'spatinal' part of 'our' 3 + 1 spacetime (taking in account obviously their different dimensions: 2 for the first and 3 for the latter).
Surely mine was, a that level, a pure and simple spatial 2D <-> 3D analogy.A.T. said:Of course you can make the purely spatial analogy 2D <-> 3D. But to explain how gravity works in GR, you have to include the time dimension. For example to explain why, why an object initially at rest, starts falling.
Take an ordinary 2-D surface with no metric defined on it (just a 2D smooth manifold with affine connection defined)pervect said:However, it'd be more productive to look at the simpler case first, I think. The directional derivative is the easier concept to get a handle on, I think, and I'd encourage the OP to do some background reading on the topic as I think it could help sharpen up and define his questions.
cianfa72 said:The analogy I have been talking about since post #37 is not between an 1 + 1 spacetime and an ordinary 2-D curved surface (it definitely does not apply for the reasons you highlighted). My point is about the 'spatial' part of a 2 + 1 spacetime and the 'spatial' part of 'our' 3 + 1 spacetime
cianfa72 said:Take an ordinary 2-D surface with no metric defined on it (just a 2D smooth manifold with affine connection defined)
Limiting ourselves to it, how can an 'ant' -- from an operational point of view -- actually 'implement' (let me say step-by-step) the parallel transport of its tangent vector along a 'small' closed path in order to detect the geodesic curvature ?
How can one check for a midpoint of a line segment (geodesic) without any metric ? The Wiki entry for Schild's ladder seems to assume a Riemannian or pseudo-Riemannian manifold.pervect said:You do need a closed loop to use this notion of flatness vs curvature, though, so this approach requires the neighborhood around the point to determine the presence or absence of curvature. However, one doesn't need a metric. I believe there may be a requirement that the space is affine - Schild's ladder, for instance, requires that one be able to find the midpoint of a line segment. This is possible with or without a metric, but it does require some way to say that two intervals are equal.
Definitely, that was a nosensePeterDonis said:The term "geodesic curvature" is an oxymoron.
cianfa72 said:How can one check for a midpoint of a line segment (geodesic) without any metric ?
I don't think this is correct. You need a metric to define inner products, compute interval, etc. but curvature can be completely defined by a connection. See, for example:PeterDonis said:The term "geodesic curvature" is an oxymoron. As I posted previously, you need to carefully distinguish two kinds of curvature: path curvature (of curves that are not geodesic) and curvature of the manifold itself. Path curvature does not require a metric, only a connection. But manifold curvature does require a metric; without a metric it makes no sense to ask whether a manifold is curved or not. In fact, you can't even tell whether a manifold is spacelike or not without a metric, or whether it is Riemannian or pseudo-Riemannian (like spacetime). All those things require a metric.
PAllen said:You need a metric to define inner products, compute interval, etc. but curvature can be completely defined by a connection.
That means we are actually restricted to use the Levi-Civita connection from the metric chosen.PeterDonis said:However, the Schild's ladder construction would still require a metric since it requires you to find midpoints of curves.
cianfa72 said:That means we are actually restricted to use the Levi-Civita connection from the metric chosen.
cianfa72 said:How can one check for a midpoint of a line segment (geodesic) without any metric ? The Wiki entry for Schild's ladder seems to assume a Riemannian or pseudo-Riemannian manifold.Definitely, that was a nosense
wiki said:
- Schild's ladder requires not only geodesics but also relative distance along geodesics. Relative distance may be provided by affine parametrization of geodesics, from which the required midpoints may be determined.
- The parallel transport which is constructed by Schild's ladder is necessarily torsion-free.
- A Riemannian metric is not required to generate the geodesics. But if the geodesics are generated from a Riemannian metric, the parallel transport which is constructed in the limit by Schild's ladder is the same as the Levi-Civita connection because this connection is defined to be torsion-free.
wiki said:n mathematics, an affine space is a geometric structure that generalizes some of the properties of Euclidean spaces in such a way that these are independent of the concepts of distance and measure of angles, keeping only the properties related to parallelism and ratio of lengths for parallel line segments.
pervect said:It turns out the concept of equal intervals isn't quite the same as having a metric.
cianfa72 said:Surely mine was, a that level, a pure and simple spatial 2D <-> 3D analogy.Take an ordinary 2-D surface with no metric defined on it (just a 2D smooth manifold with affine connection defined)
Limiting ourselves to it, how can an 'ant' -- from an operational point of view -- actually 'implement' (let me say step-by-step) the parallel transport of its tangent vector along a 'small' closed path in order to detect the geodesic curvature ? I am not sure there exist actually such a way for the ant to do that without an operative procedure to 'implement' the chosen (mathematical) affine connection structure.
Wald said:In terms of components in the coordinate basis, and the parameter ##\tau## along the curve
$$\frac{dv^\nu}{d\tau} + \sum_{\mu,\lambda}t^\mu \, \Gamma^\nu{}_{\mu\lambda} v^\gamma = 0$$
This shows that the parallel transport of ##v^a## depends only on the values of ##v^a## on the curve, so we may consider the prallel transport properties of a vector defined only along the curve as opposed to a vector fields.
Surely, so to carry out the parallel transport it is enough for the ant to know the connection just at the points he visits. That means that if the manifold has a metric then the ant can derive the connection from it, otherwise 'someone' has to assign it at least at points he visits.pervect said:The ant starts out at point, and picks out a direction in which to walk. This direction can be represented as a vector. He then proceeds to walk in that direction. While he walks, he also "parallel transports" the vector, representing the direction in which to walk, along with himself. He continues to walk in the direction the vector points. He doesn't need information other than the connection at the points he visits in order to do this - the value of the connection along his path gives him all he needs.
My takeaway from page 1 was that accelerometers cannot be pointlike, just "local" in the sense of: arbitrarily small, but not zero sized. So an accelerometer "looks off its path" in space time:cianfa72 said:From what we said it is possible for an observer traveling along a path through spacetime to know if its path is actually a geodesic without (locally) looking off its path (basically it suffices to have an accelerometer attached to it).
Dale said:My understanding is also that local is not point like but merely at a scale too small for curvature to be noticed. You can certainly make accelerometers that small
cianfa72 said:Surely, so to carry out the parallel transport it is enough for the ant to know the connection just at the points he visit. That means that if the manifold has a metric then the ant can derive the connection from it, otherwise 'someone' has to assign it at least at points he visit.
A.T. said:My takeaway from page 1 was that accelerometers cannot be pointlike, just "local" in the sense of: arbitrarily small, but not zero sized. So an accelerometer "looks off its path" in space time
Yes - but isn't examining that idealisation relevant to this question? As pervect points out, velocity and acceleration are perfectly well defined at a point in a classical theory, but actually measuring them requires you to look at a small region. At least, I can't think of an accelerometer that can work at one event. For a concrete example, imagine an accelerometer consisting of a mass attached by six springs to the walls of a box. I can't take a snapshot of the state of the accelerometer and deduce anything about my acceleration. For example, if I've just turned off my rockets the mass will be out of equilibrium for a small time, so the mere fact that the springs are stretched doesn't tell me that I'm accelerating.PeterDonis said:So in the model, an accelerometer does not need to "look off the path" in spacetime.
Ibix said:isn't examining that idealisation relevant to this question?