China vs US: Will Science & Tech Lead to World Rule?

[russ_watters]

Regardless, the problem is far more prevalent in China and that is the point.

 

[arildno]

Regardless, the problem is far more prevalent in China and that is the point.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Milo Hobgoblin]

There isn't equal access to education in the US, if you haven't noted.

There isnt? How so? I suppose you're going to claim that some inner city ghetto trash who spat out kids at 14 and dropped out of school doesn't have equal access?

And as far as the poor are concerned.. you can't swing a dead cat and not hit 20 grants and loans.

People outside the US live is much harsher condtions with many more life challenges and manage to get some sort of education.. there is NO excuse besides BAD life choices for not being educated in the US..

 

[russ_watters]

Are you sure about that?

Is that a serious question?

For a start, China only guarantees their students 9 years of free education. In the US, it's 12. Pick a statistic - any statistic - about education. I doubt you will find one where China's actual education level exceeds the US's.

How 'bout literacy?
China: 90%
US: 99%

College graduates?
China: 0.2%
US: 13%

How can you seriously question this?

 

[arildno]

People outside the US live is much harsher condtions with many more life challenges and manage to get some sort of education.. there is NO excuse besides BAD life choices for not being educated in the US..

Sadly though, I really believe you think so.

 

[Milo Hobgoblin]

Sadly though, I really believe you think so.

I know so.. I was a single father making minimum wage. I worked three jobs and pulled 12 units every semester.. no grants, no loans.

laugh all you want.. but suffering through college in Southern California.. I had the experience of seeing plenty of people with a lot of opportunity and little ambition.

being someone who lived in poverty for a quite a few years.. I have NEVER met anyone who didnt have the chance to go to school.. I've met people who've made a lot of excuses.. but none of them held any water.

Good thing they have peole like you to make their excuses for them.. makes their lives of sloth that much easier.

 

[russ_watters]

Sadly though, I really believe you think so.

Would you like to actually make a point, rather than just asking meaningless rhetorical questions and making useless, insulting insinuations?

Be specific about your claim and provide the data and sources to back it up. What you are doing now is a violation of the TOS of this site.

 

[arildno]

Vast differences of wealth DO matter, and are not just the results of "bad life choices"

The term "equal access" is just a rhetorical term, which nowhere has been achieved (nor is it necessarily desirable).

What IS relevant, is whether individuals have SUFFICIENT opportunities of gaining education, and in that respect, I believe that in the US, along with Western Europe this is fairly well achieved.

 

[Milo Hobgoblin]

Vast differences of wealth DO matter, and are not just the results of "bad life choices"

The term "equal access" is just a rhetorical term, which nowhere has been achieved (nor is it necessarily desirable).

What IS relevant, is whether individuals have SUFFICIENT opportunities of gaining education, and in that respect, I believe that in the US, along with Western Europe this is fairly well achieved.

Why don't you give us an example of someone who is poor and doesn't have access to education..

I will shoot a hole in every one of your theories.. again because I lived through being impoverished WITH a child and still obtained an education.. I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt there are simply NO VALID EXCUSES in the US for not getting some sort of education...

except bad life choices of course.. or sloth

And quit pretending like the wealthy have some unfair advantage.. SOMEWHERE along the line someone EARNED that money and that advantage is well deserved..

this isn't medieval Europe where the rich are working the local poor in some field under whip and a life of indentured servitude. So move on.

Im now in a position to have many wealthy friends.. I don't know a single one who "cheated" his way there or got there on the backs of the poor. hell most of them pay WELL ABOVE the minimum wage to their lower level employees.

they got there by busting their asses in school and working some 14 hour days for years on end and biotech firms, construction companies, stock firms etc...


oh and BTW... the wealthy STILL have to study and take the SAME exams we did in college.. they STILL have to go to lectures and labs.. they STILL have to put in the time.

 

[arildno]

Why don't you give us an example of someone who is poor and doesn't have access to education..

I will shoot a hole in every one of your theories.. again because I lived through being impoverished WITH a child and still obtained an education.. I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt there are simply NO VALID EXCUSES in the US for not getting some sort of education...

.

Utterly irrelevant. Exceptional people have ALWAYS managed and been able to prosper, also in the Middle Ages.

 

[Milo Hobgoblin]

Utterly irrelevant. Exceptional people have ALWAYS managed and been able to prosper, also in the Middle Ages.

LOL.. you finally get it. It comes down to the person NOT the system.

Ambition makes up for a lot...

The lack of equality is due to individual differences.. not some ambiguous system of designed oppression.

Governments make HORRIBLE situational problem solvers.. so expecting them to legislate the shortcomings of others is heretical.

the simple fact is this.. The vast majority of citizens in the US do have equal ACCESS to education.. they just choose not to use it, as to their succcess, that depends completely upon the work ethic, ambition and intelligence of the INDIVIDUAL.

Stop pretending there is some mass conspiracy to keep the impoverished down.. most agree that intelligence and to some extent ambition are inherited and while manifesting themseleves in different ways among the generations, they DO manifest themseleves eventually IF they are present.

If a group of people simply cannot succeed in life.. that VAST majority of the time.. it is NOT due to unequal access or oppression (not in the US anyways) but due to their inability as a group of INDIVIDUALS to succeed. they simply are NOT equal in terms of their abilities..

dont like it .. too bad.. here is a wake up call, people are not equal.

30-50 years ago (depending upon what part of the country you are talkign about) you "may" have had a valid point.. you do not today. Racism was rampant and people were denied access.. that simply isn't the case 90+% of the time anymore.

If ANYTHING.. our mistake of letting the government act as a situational problem solver .. developing misguided and ill conceived plans such as affrimative action and "no chiild left behind" have had the opposite affect in promoting those not worthy and spending WAY too many resources on those who simply are not capable under the guise of "equality". Assuming in the first place.. that all children are equally capable of learning (which they are not)

Those who are capable and deserving suffer.. while those who lack merit, intelligence and/or ambition gain an advantage they do not deserve.

I have seen first hand the products of both.. they hold back the achievers.. in both acadaemia AND the makretplace while the goldbrickers and dim witted are pushed and pushed and pushed.


Some people are simply born to be ditch diggers.. no amount of government funding, ritalin and intervention is going to change that..

and NO amount of wishing to the contrary is either.. so please, stop before all humanity suffers at the hands of imbeciles.

 

[arildno]

LOL.. you finally get it. It comes down to the person NOT the system.

.

Nope. Complete oversimplification.

 

[russ_watters]

Of course it is an oversimplification - this isn't a phd thesis. But it is a completely valid argument. If you disagree, present your own argument!

There was a recent post in P&WA about class mobility in the US compared to European nations. Surprising to me is that the class mobility is actually not all that good in the US compared to them (it didn't mention China, though). But that is a measure of actual mobility, not a measure of potential for mobility. For most people in the bottom rung of society in the US, mobility requires only completion of the government's provided education system - and that is a personal choice.

 

[arildno]

I can't argue against oversimplifications. I can only state that they are just that.
It is not a valid argument, precisely because it oversimplifies issues.

 

[Milo Hobgoblin]

I can't argue against oversimplifications. I can only state that they are just that.
It is not a valid argument, precisely because it oversimplifies issues.

Uhh.. you never gave a reason for your point.. you just implied there is not equal access to education in the US.

No supporting statements, no examples.. just your opinion. At least I am making an effort to state otherwise.

 

[arildno]

So, do you think equal efforts and talents results in the same education in the US?

 

[Milo Hobgoblin]

So, do you think equal efforts and talents results in the same education in the US?

Yes I do. And there are way too many examples of ghetto and backwater schools producing exceptional students to state the contrary.


I think most of the statistics that appear to dispute my claims such as the overall dismal performance of the general populace attending many of these schools.. the effect only supports my claim that groups of people who simply lack the innate ability to succeed will fall behind.

Now.. if you would like me to provide you of lists with countless names of exceptional individuals who attended primary schooling at these ghetto or backwater institutions .. I would be glad to do so. (it will take me a while.. I am actually at work LOL)

But it only takes ONE to prove me right. because according to your theories.. if EVERYONE is equal in ability and talent.. then NO ONE should succeed coming from these schools..

Only one proves that the majority of schools provide more than enough opportunity to get ahead... and that those who fall behind do so because of their lack of innate ability.

Try as you may.. you cannot excuse the lazy and dim witted.

 

[arildno]

Really?
From what I know, there are several extremely mediocre students who, due to their inheritance, still manage to get into prestigious institutions that OTHER INDIVIDUALS IN THE SAME CATEGORY OF COMPETENCE AS THEMSELVES never would have gotten into.

One of them happens to be the current president of the US.

 

[russ_watters]

I can't argue against oversimplifications. I can only state that they are just that.
It is not a valid argument, precisely because it oversimplifies issues.

So...your no argument at all is better than an oversimplified one?

Seriously, arildno, what are you doing here? Your contribution to this thread is utterly pointless.

 

[arildno]

So...your no argument at all is better than an oversimplified one?

Seriously, arildno, what are you doing here? Your contribution to this thread is utterly pointless.

Really?
The fact that the 1% most talented part of the population in ANY society will do well, irrespective of initial differences in wealth, cannot (or should not!) be the basis of your social views.

If you don't think the other 99% count, in which unequal distributions of initial wealth DO matter, that's your problem.

 

[raolduke]

the simple fact is this.. The vast majority of citizens in the US do have equal ACCESS to education.. they just choose not to use it, as to their succcess, that depends completely upon the work ethic, ambition and intelligence of the INDIVIDUAL.

This is completely true. Americans have just as many, I am betting more, venues as the Chinese for education. But the problem is like you said is the willingness of each others citizens to learn. In China they are willing to learn English. In America we learn one tounge. And I've rarely seen English used that well by most Americans (including me).
Besides the willingness to learn they also have 2 billion people that are willing to expand their culture.

 

[arildno]

No, it is not true at all.
Kids growing up in poor areas do not have access to schools that offers a better, and more expensive, education.

So, no, kids in the US do NOT have equal access to education.

The sole relevant criterium is whether each kid has access to an education that can be termed sufficient, where at the very least, I think about a majority of the kids do have such access.

 

[raolduke]

I never said that we have as many kids that are willing to learn/ that are learning.. We have more outlets than the chinese for learning. Example - Public libraries and public education. Both are free and both have been available for all citizens and their children for many years. Even in poor parts of town you still may have access to a library or internet.

 

[arildno]

Again, you choose to ignore the most obvious source of unequal access.

As long as you do, you are not really ready to discuss these issues.

 

[raolduke]

What is the most obvious source of unequal access?

 

[arildno]

What is the most obvious source of unequal access?

As I said, you are not ready to discuss these issues.

 

[raolduke]

How do you know that I don't know? How would I know unless you told me? Why wouldn't you like to enlighten me?

 

[arildno]

It has already been told you. You still choose to ignore it.

 

[KvnBushi]

This had the potential to be a pretty interesting thread.

 

[AFG34]

chinese people in general are very hard working..they have potential.

 

[DrClapeyron]

I grew up taking Karate lessons, and I always felt it was a very solid, rigid and strong martial art. There was a lot of emphasis on striking, blocking and grapling. Kung-fu I felt was very passive, artistic and painful, you have to be very flexible for kung-fu.

The Chinese have a very pacive lifestyle compared to their neighbors. I won't deny they can be as cruel as any other country, to me they are the Italians of the East with the Japanese the Germans. I don't think strength is always in numbers. Take the English; a small island nation that founded a very wealth and large empire.

Chinese and Indian societies had been far more populous than the English, yet they both came under jurisdiction of British naval law. I shouldn't see why things have changed within the last 200 years.

 

[W3pcq]

If China were to make new advances in science, do you think we would even know about it. They keep everything secret. They have ancient ruins that they keep secret from there own people.

 

[W3pcq]

China is definitely becoming more and more powerful. They are still in the process of industrial revolution. They use more and more oil every. They are beginning to have a middle class. I think that having einsteins is irrellivant. The real power today is in economics. They are going to dominate us economically. They are smart and they don't give up.

Wealth is definitely the biggest factor in determining educational opportunity.

 

[W3pcq]

Have you ever seen that Chinese movie where the kid is taken into the city from a poor village because he was a fast runner. The village he was from spent their entire yearly budget on chalk. They had no computers, no power. Some were kept out of school to help the parents work.

 

[paledim]

to the original question (im a little late on the post), china versus u.s.? now there's a lot of avenues to go down on this one. there are many "systems" that are intertwined. first of all there is no China versus U.S. due to allies etc... (political system). Now I am writting very raw and unspecific. China depends on U.S. and vice versa (economic system). To the very ends of the Earth would be a nuclear war and that would just kill everything, because we all know that if 1 nuke hits, North Korea, China, U.S. Canada, Pakistan etc... will just unleash their arsenal...

Aside from that, there is also a cultural war going on that no one seems to be paying attention to. And culture involves all systems political, religious, economical etc... So, there if there is a "cold war" happening today, it's on both waepon/military and cultural fronts.