Cooper Union Protest: Students Fight for Free Tuition

[MarneMath]

Hold on- these students chose Cooper Union specifically because it was free (as Cooper intended!), and its a very selective school. These are students who most likely passed on Ivies and other prestigious schools (with a larger selection of classes and amenities) specifically to attend a unique free school focusing on a solid liberal arts education. And now they are being told, part-way through their education "sorry! This is now going to cost you quite a lot!" They have every right to be upset.

According to the article, current students are exempt from the tuition.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Here I am. Rock you like a hurricane.

Yes we exist.

My mother is disabled and lives on widow pension of less than 7000 euros a year. I live in an area with >30% unemployment, and where the minimum monthly wage is 600 euros. The only university that offers a physics degree is in another province, which required me to move out and pay 405 euros a month in living costs, total.

If it weren't for the grants and scholarships I receive, there is no way in hell I could attend university.

But I'm fortunate enough to live in a country where there are *some* safety nets for the poor.

And why shouldn't there be any in the US? I just happen to have been living here instead of the US at the time I hit college-age.

There are in the US. What are you talking about no safety nets for the poos? You are ignoring the laundry list of aid that the poor in the US do get. You know that there are grants and scholarships for conventional colleges in the US right? They do exist.

 

[Lavabug]

There are in the US. What are you talking about no safety nets for the poos? You are ignoring the laundry list of aid that the poor in the US do get. You know that there are grants and scholarships for conventional colleges in the US right? They do exist.

I know they exist, but I also know they don't cover full tuition costs in most cases. I know, I applied for them.

 

[WannabeNewton]

But why should anyone have to settle for a cheap yet sub-par university if they got accepted to a really prestigious one, just because the tuition was ridiculously high? Why should we live in a society where only the rich / well off in majority can attend the really high ranked universities? I don't think you realize that not everyone gets free rides even if they are awarded scholarships, even if they are intellectually gifted. Maybe you should take the time to do research on how much in grants and loans the members of the low income bracket actually get from various universities. Cooper Union was an outlier with regards to this but now it too has fallen into the grime and muck of greed. It isn't human to be apathetic, it is human to be sympathetic.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Again, where are your sources that prove that a conventional US university is affordable for everybody?

Why is the burden of proof on me?

Lavabug made the original claim,

The mission of this school is to provide a sensible alternative for highly capable students who cannot pay at a conventional university.

Where is his sources that such students exist? Are only ivy league universities considered conventional universities now?

Look in this thread. Many of us got our BS for less than 40k. 10-15k of grants, loans and scholarships per year are available to all students. Hence, all students can afford a conventional university.

 

[Lavabug]

But why should anyone have to settle for a cheap yet sub-par university if they got accepted to a really prestigious one, just because the tuition was ridiculously high? Why should we live in a society where only the rich / well off in majority can attend the really high ranked universities? I don't think you realize that not everyone gets free rides even if they are awarded scholarships, even if they are intellectually gifted. Maybe you should take the time to do research on how much in grants and loans the members of the low income bracket actually get from various universities. Cooper Union was an outlier with regards to this but now it too has fallen into the grime and muck of greed. It isn't human to be apathetic, it is human to be sympathetic.

It might not solve anything, but I can give you a hug. :)

 

[Lavabug]

Where is his sources that such students exist?

Hello? Don't I exist?

 

[MarneMath]

As I said before, such students do not exist. There are plenty of grants, scholarships, part time jobs and subsidized loans available. There is no such thing as a capable student who cannot pay at a conventional university. Not in the US at least.

You need to define what a capable student is.

If you're saying that a student can take out loans to cover cost at some university, I would tend to agree with that statement. There's a school 40 minutes away that will charge for all 4 years 25,600, so if you can find a place to live and food to eat, you'll have no real problem getting a student loan to cover that.

However, I don't think the argument is if it's possible for a student to get loans and go to a university. The answer is yes. The argument is really more focused on is it acceptable for society to ask a 18-20 year old to accept such a high level of debt in exchange for the chance of an education? Personally, I lack a real strong opinion on this. However, I do feel that by putting students in such a bad financial environment before they even start working has to negatively effect the economy.

 

[WannabeNewton]

It might not solve anything, but I can give you a hug. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmTRFvZ_Cp4

You can be the fat one

 

[micromass]

Why is the burden of proof on me?

Lavabug made the original claim,


Where is his sources that such students exist? Are only ivy league universities considered conventional universities now?

Look in this thread. Many of us got our BS for less than 40k. 10-15k of grants, loans and scholarships per year are available to all students. Hence, all students can afford a conventional university.

You specifically made the following claim:

A conventional US university education is affordable for everybody.

This requires proof. The mere fact that you're trying to shift the burden of proof on other people is saying enough.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Hello? Don't I exist?

Nope. I don't believe your claims. I think if you stayed in the US and applied for grants, loans and scholarships you could get the 10-15k a year it takes to get a conventional university education.

 

[ModusPwnd]

You specifically made the following claim:
This requires proof. The mere fact that you're trying to shift the burden of proof on other people is saying enough.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized#how-much-can-i-borrow

And this is just one of the many forms of aid available to students. There are also grants, other unsubsidized loans, scholarships and (god forbid!) part time jobs available to students.The proper question is not whether one can go to university, but whether one should go to university (as marnemath pointed out).

 

[Lavabug]

Nope. I don't believe your claims.

That's too bad.

I qualified for the 5k$ Pell grant, but I couldn't come up with the >10k$ I had to pay for tuition at the schools I got admitted at. Some other financial+family issues prompted me to leave the country, but even if I had stayed I couldn't have gone to school without getting into considerable (for my standards) debt. I had a full time job making less than 700$ a month and had to spend practically all of it on living costs, sharing an apartment.

 

[micromass]

http://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized#how-much-can-i-borrow

And this is just one of the many forms of aid available to students. There are also grants, other unsubsidized loans, scholarships and (god forbid!) part time jobs available to students.

Putting people in considerable debt is not really "aid" in my opinion. Why would anybody have to take out loans that he'll never be able to pay back (yes, this happens).

 

[WannabeNewton]

http://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized#how-much-can-i-borrow

And this is just one of the many forms of aid available to students. There are also grants, other unsubsidized loans, scholarships and (god forbid!) part time jobs available to students.

I must say, you seem to be missing the obvious fact that 5 grand is not a lot of money in the face of what many US universities make you pay. You know what I find funny? That you apparently came from a poor family and worked as well as went to university in order to support the tuition and family, and yet have no sympathy for the people who choose Cooper Union because they cannot afford the tuition themselves. You know what what tells me about you? That you think if people don't "suffer" as much as you did, then they don't deserve your sympathy. In light of that, I don't think there is any point in arguing further.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Putting people in considerable debt is not really "aid" in my opinion. Why would anybody have to take out loans that he'll never be able to pay back (yes, this happens).

Ahh, so now that I give you evidence even though I did not make the original claim, now you are changing the goal posts. I never claimed that there was sufficient aid to satisfy micromass' opinion. I claimed that every student in the US has access to enough grants, loans and scholarships to afford a conventional university education.

I will never pay mine back. I am getting aid from the government. I only pay what I can "afford" based on my income. Loan that is never paid back is not a loan, its a grant/gift/aid.

 

[ModusPwnd]

That you think if people don't "suffer" as much as you did, then they don't deserve your sympathy.

I didn't suffer. I had grant and loan money thrown at me like mad. I worked a part time job and never went hungry or had real want or need. I'm thankful for all the govt. assistance I got, I couldn't have gotten a degree without it.

 

[micromass]

Ahh, so now that I give you evidence even though I did not make the original claim, now you are changing the goal posts. I never claimed that there was sufficient aid to satisfy micromass' opinion. I claimed that every student in the US has access to enough grants, loans and scholarships to afford a conventional university education.

I will never pay mine back. I am getting aid from the government. I only pay what I can "afford" based on my income. Loan that is never paid back is not a loan, its a grant/gift/aid.

To be fair, you never really provedd your original point. You just proved that students could get $5000 in loans from the government. You never proved that everybody in the US could afford to go to an original university. But I was going to drop this point because you could never prove it anyway.

 

[D H]

Why is the burden of proof on me?

Because you are the one who made outlandish claims. And your claim is outlandish. You can read article after article about the ever increasing problem of an ever decreasing affordability of a college education, even for a run of the mill college education.

There is a world of difference in quality and depth of education between the top tier schools and the others. Those top tier schools are not affordable to the middle class. Scholarships are oftentimes based on need, and they aren't needy enough to qualify. Loans are not a substitute for scholarships (or even better, free tuition).

Part of the difference between top tier schools and the rest is that those top tier schools do offer a higher quality of the education. An even bigger part is the quality of the students who are selected to attend those top tier schools. The kids who were the smartest in their entire cities, maybe even in their entire states suddenly becomes just average joes at those top tier schools. The impact on quality of education is quite startling.

 

[Lavabug]

I will never pay mine back. I am getting aid from the government. I only pay what I can "afford" based on my income. Loan that is never paid back is not a loan, its a grant/gift/aid.

Good luck with that.

Maybe it worked out for you, but for most people, this is terrible advice and is in fact delinquent. Student loan debts remain on your record forever, screw your credit irreversibly, and disqualify you for a host of jobs (assuming you defaulted on them).

If your proposed solution to this problem is to suggest people engage in delinquent behavior, I don't know what to say...

 

[ModusPwnd]

To be fair, you never really provedd your original point. You just proved that students could get $5000 in loans from the government. You never proved that everybody in the US could afford to go to an original university. But I was going to drop this point because you could never prove it anyway.

Did you not read my link? The $5000 is only for first year dependent students, those are students who come from higher economic backgrounds and can afford to pay some on their own. This is to keep the rich people from sucking down loan money intended to help poorer people rise out of their relative poverty.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Good luck with that.

Maybe it worked out for you, but for most people, this is terrible advice and is in fact delinquent. Student loan debts remain on your record forever, screw your credit irreversibly, and disqualify you for a host of jobs (assuming you defaulted on them).

If your proposed solution to this problem is to suggest people engage in delinquent behavior, I don't know what to say...

No... You are really uninformed here. I already brought up income based repayment in an earlier post. I am not in default. I pay what I can afford (via their calculation) and after 10 or 25 years the rest is forgiven. (10 if you do certain non-profit public work, 25 otherwise)

 

[reenmachine]

Let's face it , being a quebec resident (canada) , the cost of going to university is hilariously low compared to a lot of other places.If I would need to pay 50k a year to go to university , my long-shot of a dream to get back in the math game at 26 years old wouldn't even be a long-shot dream.It would be a delusion.

The cost of education is outrageous in some places.

Last spring there was a huge student protest movement in the streets of montreal in particular , you guys maybe heard of it.It got big enough to take down the political party that was in power for over a decade.

Education and health care should be as cheap as possible.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Education and health care should be as cheap as possible.

Surely there should be some statement about the quality of these things as well?

 

[SteamKing]

No... You are really uninformed here. I already brought up income based repayment in an earlier post. I am not in default. I pay what I can afford (via their calculation) and after 10 or 25 years the rest is forgiven. (10 if you do certain non-profit public work, 25 otherwise)

You may be in good standing with the government for your loans, but if the amount you are able to repay is less than the amount you would have to pay for a conventional loan, then the difference is not a "grant" or a "gift", it is IMO a subsidy, pure and simple. The government is able to bestow this windfall on you because it compels taxpayers to fund it, the government, on your behalf.

 

[russ_watters]

Surely there should be some statement about the quality of these things as well?

The assumption that typically goes with it is that it should be of the highest quality. This is the source of much of the West's fiscal problems.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm a big believer in free or cheap education.

Is there a limit to the quality or level of free education that you advocate?

[I use your "free" knowing full well you are aware that there is no such thing as "free education", only education that someone else pays for.]

 

[Lavabug]

The assumption that typically goes with it is that it should be of the highest quality.

Not necessarily, there can be compromises. But most countries where citizens have a high quality of life meet some minimum of social services.

The UK's dental care program is allegedly pretty terrible (insert jokes about British teeth here), and a lot of places with public healthcare have long waitinglists at times, but when a large part of the population can't afford even the most basic services, anything is better than nothing.

 

[reenmachine]

Surely there should be some statement about the quality of these things as well?

Where I come from health care is free for the most part and except the ridiculous waiting time in E.R. and clinics without appointment , I never had any problems with the way I got treated.I didn't feel as if I was treated by incompetent doctors.It's completely ridiculous that health care can ruin you financially for life.There's some people that simply cannot work or cannot find good work for many reasons.They should be medically treated with the same quality as anybody else.

But then if I make 800$ a week , 350-400$ will be taken out of my paycheck.

 

[russ_watters]

Not necessarily, there can be compromises. But most countries where citizens have a high quality of life meet some minimum of social services.

The UK's dental care program is allegedly pretty terrible (insert jokes about British teeth here), and a lot of places with public healthcare have long waitinglists at times, but when a large part of the population can't afford even the most basic services, anything is better than nothing.

I use "highest" synonomously with "uniform" here, since in a pure government run system, they should go together. It is indeed my view that uniformity causes mediocrity.

 

[russ_watters]

For all the bickering about what "affordable" and "assistance" mean, I don't think people are addressing a more fundamental issue: How much education should government (the people) be paying for?

My opinion is simple: government should pay for the minimum required schooling that everyone should have. That means high school education. And the flip side of that is that it should be compulsory to the point where you are penalized for not finishing a high school diploma in a timely fashion (except in rare extenuating circumstances).

Above the minimum education level, assistance should be provided in an indirect way. By that I mean loans, not direct grants. At any income level.

Why do I oppose grants? Simple: College is an investment. An investment that will pay back if done correctly and won't pay back if done incorrectly. So a college loan should not be a hardship if you use your college education correctly.

Alternately, grant amounts could be tied to average starting salary of the major. Want a grant so you can get a philosophy degree with which you will get a job where you can pour coffee philosophically? That's a terrible investment and the government should not be handing over money on bad investments. You can have a $6 grant (to buy a cup of coffee from a philosophy grad, to talk you into pursuing a better major). Want to become a petroleum engineer? $40,000 grant.

Come to think of it, the loans should be structured the same way.

Either system would do a better job of steering people toward useful majors, cut down on wasted education spending and probably even bring some competition into the college market (with fewer students going to college, colleges would cut tuition costs to attract more).

Also, others are right that elite universities are worth the extra money. And by that I mean strictly as an investment. So loans and grants should differ based on the university attended.

 

[Cthugha]

For all the bickering about what "affordable" and "assistance" mean, I don't think people are addressing a more fundamental issue: How much education should government (the people) be paying for?

This is a strategic decision which cannot be answered without taking the specifics of each country and its economic structure into account. A society can afford to keep education at a minimal level without providing assistance if its economy is heavy on tourism or it has lots of natural resources.

If a country has neither, the situation is very different in my opinion. You do not really get economic value added by just having a huge service sector. So in that case an approach heavy on industry and importing natural resources and exporting high quality goods is more appropriate. Staying competitive with this approach requires having a rather large amount of highly educated workers, so keeping education affordable will usually pay off in these societies. It is not a coincidence that these countries are usually also high-tax countries, so the investment made by society in terms of providing affordable education is usually paid back by the higher amount of taxes paid. For economies with a lack of highly educated workers, affordable higher education is also a means to attract more people from abroad.

The places with real fiscal problems are more or less those which try to go an affordable high education strategy without having the industry for that. It makes no sense educating people which then leave the country because there are no industry jobs for them at home. Parts of southern Europe can tell that story.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Welcome to the real world. I'm not crying for them. I understand they are upset, but I reserve my sympathy for people who are actually suffering and struggling.

If someone offers you 4 years of free education and you pass up MIT or Harvard to take them up on their offer, and a year later they start charging you AS MUCH AS MIT OR HARVARD, don't you think you have a right to protest?

And this is just one of the many forms of aid available to students. There are also grants, other unsubsidized loans, scholarships and (god forbid!) part time jobs available to students.

So a totally dependent student can borrow up to 3500 in subsidized loans (at 3.4%), and has to take out the rest in unsubsidized loans, currently at 6.8%.

$3500 pays for LESS THAN ONE SEMESTER at a fairly cheap state school. So if you manage to work a part time job to cover all your living expenses (I did this in college), you are likely to graduate with between 20k-40k in debt (at 6.8%!) depending on the state school (good flagship state schools will lead to more debt than smaller ones).

My father and my sister went to the same state college (many years apart obviously :) ). My dad was able to pay for it by working part time waiting tables. My sister also waited tables and worked in the library as part of work study, and still graduated with 35k in debt at 6.8%. College has clearly become LESS affordable, if not unaffordable.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I would hate to be the person who has to turn down MIT due to financial reasons. That would be the something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

 

[robphy]

The popular theme seems to be that these students are selfish, lazy, and self-entitled.

While I was at Cooper, most of my classmates were hard-working and unpretentious.
Too bad it was a commuter school... so there wasn't a real college campus life.
However, Greenwich Village was fun to explore and NYU was next door.
Being tuition-free, I could be less of a financial burden to my parents... so they had one less kid to worry about helping pay for college.

(I left because I really wanted to study Physics, as opposed to Engineering.)