Curious does anyone play the piano

[Pythagorean]

I always think that it a key thing to understand about Mozart that he was someone with an exceptional mathematical ability. The cycle of keys and relationships between keys is all very mathematical and it is something Mozart understood at an instinctive level. He had an extraordinary ability to make several modulations that you don’t even notice until you suddenly realize that you are somewhere very distant from where you started. But I am not among those who criticize Mozart’s music as something that is too mathematical. I believe his music to be among the most profound. I studied the G minor symphony for ‘O level’ and it remains a piece that speaks very deeply to me.

I don't like most of Mozart's pieces either, much like I don't like most Jazz pieces. Mostly because (it think this is another perspective of the same thing you're saying) it lacks a holistic glue.

Of course, when the holistic glue is there, Mozart's pieces are fantastic! And there's some neat little riffs that come out of his pieces like in Piano Sonata No.12 in F Major K.332 he demonstrates a circle of filths progression that sounds very ahead of his time.

it's around 1:17 on this video

88Golzb39Mo [/youtube] I think ...n about mastering modulation (any tips, heh?)

 

[atyy]

Firstly, the OP wants to play Elton John songs. Without sheet music it is "trying to faithfully reproduce a performance you heard", even with the chord pattern you are playing the melody by ear.

Secondly, I described listening to a song and attempting to recreate it as above (whether the whole piece or part of) and yet people have turned around and said that isn't playing by ear.

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now), however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

I agree.

BTW, sure sounds like flowery chord charts to me!

 

[turbo]

Someone who is described as playing by ear does not necessarily mean they cannot read music. Playing by ear simply means someone who listens to a piece (however many times), and can recreate the melody without any sheet music. There are many people who can play both by ear and read from sheets very well. It's not always disconnected.
That's it.

I could sight-read for brass instruments, but never learned to sight-read for guitar. That's all "by ear". As Chet Atkins said "I'm confessin' I never took a lesson. All my notes are a matter of guessin'"

I took a music theory course in college, and for one particular assignment, I had to compose a piece, write the proper notation for the piece, and perform the piece in front of the class. I wrote a snappy little finger-picking piece for my 12-string guitar in about 15 minutes or so, then spent all the rest of Sunday afternoon transcribing it. When I performed it, the instructor said "wait right there" after the first run-through, and went out to find another instructor who was more familiar with guitar, then had me play the piece again, to see if my notation appeared to be accurate - the guy nodded and left. Of course, I was playing the piece from memory. There is no way that I could perform that piece from sheet music.

 

[Hurkyl]

There is no way that I could perform that piece from sheet music.

I can't play piano from sheet music either. I use it to learn the piece, of course, but to really be able to play it it has to be memorized.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

I can't play piano from sheet music either. I use it to learn the piece, of course, but to really be able to play it it has to be memorized.

There's a bit of difference between the "learning it into your fingers" level of memorizing and the "being able to play without the sheet music" level.

I'm still trying to decide whether my memory is reliable enough for me to play the Rachmaninoff without the sheet music next month. I've performed the first movement of the Grieg and the last movement of Tchaik violin concerto from memory, but the Rachmaninoff is closer to my limits!

 

[elabed haidar]

Playing by ear is listening to a piece and then playing it.

I understand what you have described above (give someone the chords for a piece and they can play along to someone with the melody).

However, it is impossible for you to play an Elton John (or any) piece - the melody/accompaniment piano part - without hearing it first. How would you know you're playing it? How would you know what to play?

So it's one or the other. You are either just playing the chords along to the melody, or you are trying to improvise the melody - the latter requiring a prior hearing of said melody.

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. To improvise an Elton John song (or any) is to play by ear.

who said I am with the idea of playing by ear?? I am with you here , i just want to play elton john. I just want to know if there is a paino sheet for him , i know it takes time but i really like his songs

 

[turbo]

Just Google on "Elton John sheet music". There are tons of resources.

 

[Ouabache]

I play piano. Before doing so I already had sight-read training in classical and jazz styles on wind instrument, chord & finger pick styles guitar and banjo and flat picking mandolin. Having had previous musical training, made it much easier to learn piano. I am glad to hear others memorize pieces or at least use muscle memory to play fluently. I was worried I wasn't learning to read properly by relying more on memory.

 

[elabed haidar]

I play piano. Before doing so I already had sight-read training in classical and jazz styles on wind instrument, chord & finger pick styles guitar and banjo and flat picking mandolin. Having had previous musical training, made it much easier to learn piano. I am glad to hear others memorize pieces or at least use muscle memory to play fluently. I was worried I wasn't learning to read properly by relying more on memory.

niceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[ThomasT]

I play a bit. Just an amateur who doesn't sight read. After playing guitar in the classical style, and a bit of violin and flute for a few years, I spent a few years getting comfortable on the keyboard. It's my favorite hobby.

At the risk of offending anyone's musical sensibilities here's some links to a few of my tunes:

Incongruent Configuration III

For Dixie on a Cool Summer Night

The Tying Run Is On Bass

 

[CRichard]

Hey guys, I just stumbled on this thread. ThomasT, those pieces sound fantastic! You sound great on the piano, and the melodies are really cool too.

Elabed Haldar, if you want free Elton john sheet music, I would recommend the website, Elton John's Music Cafe. It has the sheet music that this guy transcribed by ear off of many of Elton's live performances. All the sections are great, but the "Dessert" section has great arrangements of some of his classic songs. And you can really see how much his music is based fancy, interesting variations on simple chord sequences.

I would also recommend the Elton John keyboard book if you want to play what Elton himself played in the studio recordings. It has the vocal part, but only on the top line, so if you play the bottom 2 lines of piano without singing, it can sound kind of empty. I like it, though, because you can really appreciate Elton's playing.

 

[elabed haidar]

thank you man very very much Crichard ,that was exactly what i was looking for

 

[ThomasT]

Hey guys, I just stumbled on this thread. ThomasT, those pieces sound fantastic! You sound great on the piano, and the melodies are really cool too.

Thanks CRichard. But let's be honest ... they're pretty sloppy. Anyway, it's a great hobby and I have lots of fun trying to come up with stuff that I at least don't consciously copy from other stuff I've heard. But everything is derivitive in some way or other.

You have any stuff you can link to? Let's hear it. I hope others will post some of their stuff also.

My next project is going to be learning some Debussy and Bach stuff. The easier stuff of course. But it's all good.

Keep playing

 

[ThomasT]

It would be interesting to hear what others are playing on. Currently, I only have a Casio WK 210, 76 key portable. I'm getting back into it so will probably get a Yamaha dgx or something similar in the next few weeks. These keyboards are not exactly like playing a real piano, but they have lots of capabilities and they do have touch control and of course you can hook up a sustain pedal to them.

I'll post some organ stuff later when I get time.

Let's hear some of your stuff!

 

[Jonathan Scott]

It would be interesting to hear what others are playing on. Currently, I only have a Casio WK 210, 76 key portable. I'm getting back into it so will probably get a Yamaha dgx or something similar in the next few weeks. These keyboards are not exactly like playing a real piano, but they have lots of capabilities and they do have touch control and of course you can hook up a sustain pedal to them.

I'll post some organ stuff later when I get time.

Let's hear some of your stuff!

My main piano is a Young Chang (same as Weber) G-157 (5 foot) grand. It has a slightly weightier touch than the average grand piano, but that's not bad because it helps ensure that my finger strength is well up to handling any piano I'm likely to play in concert. It is unfortunately not very portable.

I have recently bought a Roland FP-7F as a digital keyboard which has a realistic touch with weighted keys and fairly realistic piano sound (or so they claim - they call it "SuperNatural"). It is portable enough - about 36kg (79lb) including its stand - for me to be able to pick it up on my own and put it in the car, although it isn't as well protected for transport as my old keyboard. The idea is mainly to provide a usable piano for rehearsal purposes in the rehearsal hall for the two orchestras in which I play.

The FP-7F has built-in 12W speakers which are adequate for home use and for quieter classical stuff but for a full grand piano sound I also have a pair of Mackie SRM350v2 powered speakers, which produce a little bit of background hiss all the time but otherwise seem very promising. I tried four other sets of speakers first - the first two pairs weren't powerful enough and distorted too much on bass notes; the third pair (QSC-K10) was really compact but gave excellent power and sound quality for the first few seconds but then an intolerably loud fan cut in; the fourth pair had persistent noise and both of the pair had faults (but different ones), but I finally settled for the SRM350v2 pair. I'm still not yet sure what this will be like in practice, but on Friday I will be rehearsing the 1st movement of Rach 2 with the orchestra, so I guess I will find out.

I also have an old (1992) Technics Digital Ensemble PR-350 keyboard which has a slightly weighted keyboard but not enough to be realistic, and more powerful built-in speakers. It has a hard keyboard cover and is more robust in many ways for moving purposes. However, it is so heavy (84kg / 185lb) that I couldn't move it on my own. I've kept it for now - it means that the kids can both practise keyboard in the same room at the same time on headphones.

I used to have a Welmar upright piano from the 1930s as well, which was the instrument on which I learned to play 50 years ago, but that had to go to make space for the FP-7F.

 

[elabed haidar]

I only have a Casio AT-1 , it has been in my hous for 8 years and its still works very well

 

[ThomasT]

My main piano is a Young Chang (same as Weber) G-157 (5 foot) grand. It has a slightly weightier touch than the average grand piano, but that's not bad because it helps ensure that my finger strength is well up to handling any piano I'm likely to play in concert. It is unfortunately not very portable.

I have recently bought a Roland FP-7F as a digital keyboard which has a realistic touch with weighted keys and fairly realistic piano sound (or so they claim - they call it "SuperNatural"). It is portable enough - about 36kg (79lb) including its stand - for me to be able to pick it up on my own and put it in the car, although it isn't as well protected for transport as my old keyboard. The idea is mainly to provide a usable piano for rehearsal purposes in the rehearsal hall for the two orchestras in which I play.

The FP-7F has built-in 12W speakers which are adequate for home use and for quieter classical stuff but for a full grand piano sound I also have a pair of Mackie SRM350v2 powered speakers, which produce a little bit of background hiss all the time but otherwise seem very promising. I tried four other sets of speakers first - the first two pairs weren't powerful enough and distorted too much on bass notes; the third pair (QSC-K10) was really compact but gave excellent power and sound quality for the first few seconds but then an intolerably loud fan cut in; the fourth pair had persistent noise and both of the pair had faults (but different ones), but I finally settled for the SRM350v2 pair. I'm still not yet sure what this will be like in practice, but on Friday I will be rehearsing the 1st movement of Rach 2 with the orchestra, so I guess I will find out.

I also have an old (1992) Technics Digital Ensemble PR-350 keyboard which has a slightly weighted keyboard but not enough to be realistic, and more powerful built-in speakers. It has a hard keyboard cover and is more robust in many ways for moving purposes. However, it is so heavy (84kg / 185lb) that I couldn't move it on my own. I've kept it for now - it means that the kids can both practise keyboard in the same room at the same time on headphones.

I used to have a Welmar upright piano from the 1930s as well, which was the instrument on which I learned to play 50 years ago, but that had to go to make space for the FP-7F.

Wow! I enjoyed reading that. It would be great if you could post some examples of your playing. Then, maybe you could field some questions regarding various aspects of it? Thanks.

I might go ahead and get one of the hammer-action, weighted digital keyboards. Something that feels more like a real piano, but still light enough to cart around easily. It'll be a few hundred more, but well worth it considering that I haven't played in several years and will require months of just building the strength in my hands and fingers again.

Found this at youtube ... what a supernice keyboard.

cZweKdIw-iQ&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[ThomasT]

I only have a Casio AT-1 , it has been in my hous for 8 years and its still works very well

That's a cool keyboard! Post some of your music. Thanks.

I found this at youtube:


Au-z44NHWQ0[/youtube]

 

[Ms Music]

1st movement of Rach 2 with the orchestra

*envy envy envy*

 

[ThomasT]

I just finished reading each and every post in this thread. There are lots of pianists/keyboardists at PF whose stuff it would be greatly entertaining to hear. So let's get crankin' on posting your links.

Hey, I'm not going to be shy about presenting some of my tunes. Here's a few more:

The Complementary Muse

October Passage

Summer On The Seine

Suite Organic Prospects II

Interlude For A Fallen Friend

 

[Ken Natton]

Here’s the story of my piano. I lived alone in a terraced house. Don’t know if the American’s on this site will quite understand what a terraced house is, but the essential point is that any kind of serious practice would have been highly likely to annoy the neighbours. At least, that was my excuse for not doing any. I even did look seriously into soundproofing one of my rooms, but apart from the prohibitive cost, the real problem was just how much it would have reduced the size of the room. Then I went to the Leeds Piano Competition in 2006, and in the program for that event was an advertisement for a Yamaha silent piano. My immediate reaction was that they couldn’t really be all that good. So I went to a local piano show room and played one, and here’s the news. They really are just that good. With the silent mechanism disengaged, it is a normal upright acoustic piano, and actually a very nice one. But you have the option to engage the silent mechanism, which simply stops the hammers striking the strings, then switch on the electronics and don your headphones. And the result is superb. Just as touch sensitive, just as expressive, and actually sounds like you are playing a big grand piano in an echoey concert hall. They are just wonderful, and I should stress that I have no shares in Yamaha nor any family or friends that work for them.

Of course, it was only because I was single at the time that I could justify the expense of buying one. Now, as a family man, there is of course no way I could possibly have afforded to buy one. And now I live in a detached house and there is only my family members to annoy I don’t often use the silent mode. So now I do hours and hours of serious practice, right? No, of course not. But a huge pleasure to have such a nice piano.

 

[ThomasT]

Here’s the story of my piano. I lived alone in a terraced house. Don’t know if the American’s on this site will quite understand what a terraced house is, but the essential point is that any kind of serious practice would have been highly likely to annoy the neighbours. At least, that was my excuse for not doing any. I even did look seriously into soundproofing one of my rooms, but apart from the prohibitive cost, the real problem was just how much it would have reduced the size of the room. Then I went to the Leeds Piano Competition in 2006, and in the program for that event was an advertisement for a Yamaha silent piano. My immediate reaction was that they couldn’t really be all that good. So I went to a local piano show room and played one, and here’s the news. They really are just that good. With the silent mechanism disengaged, it is a normal upright acoustic piano, and actually a very nice one. But you have the option to engage the silent mechanism, which simply stops the hammers striking the strings, then switch on the electronics and don your headphones. And the result is superb. Just as touch sensitive, just as expressive, and actually sounds like you are playing a big grand piano in an echoey concert hall. They are just wonderful, and I should stress that I have no shares in Yamaha nor any family or friends that work for them.

Of course, it was only because I was single at the time that I could justify the expense of buying one. Now, as a family man, there is of course no way I could possibly have afforded to buy one. And now I live in a detached house and there is only my family members to annoy I don’t often use the silent mode. So now I do hours and hours of serious practice, right? No, of course not. But a huge pleasure to have such a nice piano.

Thanks Ken, that piano sounds like it would be great for all sorts of urban living situations. Still, it would seem that there are more compact and inexpensive solutions available -- though they wouldn't provide the same real piano feel. Close though.

I've never been in a terraced house, but I can imagine the privacy issues.

Can we hear some of your playing?

Found this on youtube -- Yamaha makes great instruments:

 

[JaredJames]

Then I went to the Leeds Piano Competition in 2006, and in the program for that event was an advertisement for a Yamaha silent piano. My immediate reaction was that they couldn’t really be all that good. So I went to a local piano show room and played one, and here’s the news. They really are just that good. With the silent mechanism disengaged, it is a normal upright acoustic piano, and actually a very nice one. But you have the option to engage the silent mechanism, which simply stops the hammers striking the strings, then switch on the electronics and don your headphones. And the result is superb. Just as touch sensitive, just as expressive, and actually sounds like you are playing a big grand piano in an echoey concert hall. They are just wonderful, and I should stress that I have no shares in Yamaha nor any family or friends that work for them.

That sounds horrendously over engineered. If it sounds exactly like an acoustic whilst using the electronics, why not just stick with them and cut out the need for strings and tuning?

I have a Yamaha (can't remember the model) and it's electronic. It's full size, weighs a fair bit and has a fantastic sound to it. Personally, unless I had plenty of room and knew full well I'd never have to move it, I wouldn't bother with an acoustic. Although I really would love a grand piano.

 

[turbo]

Although I really would love a grand piano.

My cousin had a baby grand until he had to move to Australia to manage a defense project. Since he was with GE at the time, they might have paid for storage during his 5+ years in OZ. I'll have to ask him next time he comes back to visit his parents. It was a fantastic-sounding instrument.

He started taking lessons as an adult, and he progressed quite quickly, IMO. His teacher was my old music teacher in elementary school, and i mean OLD. Her first real job was playing piano for the silent movies at a local theater. Even into her late 90's she played piano for the Rotary Club and gave lessons. She passed away in 2002 at the age of 100.

 

[ThomasT]

That sounds horrendously over engineered. If it sounds exactly like an acoustic whilst using the electronics, why not just stick with them and cut out the need for strings and tuning?

I have a Yamaha (can't remember the model) and it's electronic. It's full size, weighs a fair bit and has a fantastic sound to it. Personally, unless I had plenty of room and knew full well I'd never have to move it, I wouldn't bother with an acoustic. Although I really would love a grand piano.

Good point(s) Jared. Still, it's cool to have the 'exactly' genuine acoustic sound and feel when you want it. Sitting down to a regular size acoustic piano puts me into a playing mood or mode that's sometimes difficult to get to with just the smaller digital instruments. Nevertheless, I'm sure I'll not buy anything but digital from here on out.

Do you have any of your music on the internet that you can link to?

 

[JaredJames]

Do you have any of your music on the internet that you can link to?

Nothing I'm aware of. Haven't played much recently due to being away from home, so don't have much chance.

 

[Pythagorean]

I love the exact pressure sensitivity of acoustic stringed pianos. Even the weighted, electronic emulators can't do it right.

I wish I had some music recorded. I mostly only have rifts though, no official pieces. I just kind of string them together and improvise.

 

[JaredJames]

I must say, I do prefer the feel of an acoustic. However, as per above they are just too awkward to own.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

I love the exact pressure sensitivity of acoustic stringed pianos. Even the weighted, electronic emulators can't do it right.

Even though the keyboard on my expensive Roland FP-7F feels quite realistic, I have difficulty balancing the sound between the fingers in the same way as on my real piano. I tend to get "bumps" of over-loud notes, especially on the black keys. I get the impression that the digital keyboard is somehow more sensitive to the speed of pressing a key than to the weight behind it. I know that the two should be closely related, but for example I can play fast but quietly more easily on the real piano.

I also suspect all of my digital keyboards have always had a special feature that makes wrong notes sound much louder than right ones!

 

[Ken Natton]

If it sounds exactly like an acoustic whilst using the electronics, why not just stick with them and cut out the need for strings and tuning?

Well the first point about maintaining the acoustic option is if you want to have a social sing-song at the piano. Not very common these days I know, but sometimes my wife and I have a little sing together – guaranteed to make the kids scramble for their iPods and headphones. Also, even if you just wish to perform for anyone it is better with the acoustic piano. You can connect external speakers to get the silent mode to play out loud, but it isn’t as good as the proper acoustic sound – that of course can be a question of the quality of your speakers. If you want to perform for just one other person, the silent electronics does have two headphone sockets – but then of course you need two pairs of headphones. Headphone quality is another issue and it would make no sense at all to pay the kind of money you need to, to buy a silent piano and then get a cheap low quality pair of headphones.

Ultimately, as others have suggested, where the option is there, I always prefer to play acoustically, but it is nice to have the option to play late at night, or even just to practice something without anyone hearing my clumsy efforts. But I must reinforce the point that it is nothing like playing any electronic keyboard that I have ever played. Even when the silent mechanism is engaged, the hammer mechanism still operates, the hammers are just prevented from hitting the strings. That means that the weight feel is exactly the same as when you are playing acoustically. And the tone generator is very responsive to your touch. There is some very clever technology to detect the speed of your key press as well as the weight.

I have the U3 model, it does not have the range of sounds demonstrated in the video clip ThomasT linked to. Neither does it have the facility to record. But what it does have is a MIDI interface, so I can connect it to my computer and record that way. I am making no promises ThomasT, but if I get some time soon, I may try and record something and post it here.

 

[JaredJames]

Well the first point about maintaining the acoustic option is if you want to have a social sing-song at the piano. Not very common these days I know, but sometimes my wife and I have a little sing together – guaranteed to make the kids scramble for their iPods and headphones.

My point was that if the acoustic sound is that good, why not just have the piano minus the strings assembly and then insert a few quality speakers.

 

[mishrashubham]

Even though the keyboard on my expensive Roland FP-7F feels quite realistic, I have difficulty balancing the sound between the fingers in the same way as on my real piano. I tend to get "bumps" of over-loud notes, especially on the black keys. I get the impression that the digital keyboard is somehow more sensitive to the speed of pressing a key than to the weight behind it.

Same here. I always have a hard time controlling my hand so as to not press the black keys too hard on my digital keyboard.. They always seem to sound much louder even though I put only as much effort.

And yes, touch sensitivity is measured by pressing velocity (at least in my keyboard and apparently yours as well)

I also suspect all of my digital keyboards have always had a special feature that makes wrong notes sound much louder than right ones!

hehe I couldn't agree more.

 

[Ken Natton]

Can we hear some of your playing?

I found some recordings I made using my brand new silent piano back in early 2007. I tried to post them here but they are .wav files and it doesn’t seem to be that I can attach them. I confess that I had not appreciated that your links were actually to another website on which you had put your recordings. I am not in your class Thomas so perhaps it is not so bad really that I don’t seem to be able to post the files.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

Tonight I rehearsed Rach 2 1st movement on my Roland FP-7F with the orchestra. It went well, but I'm even less impressed with the digital keyboard. The sound was very "muddy" and lacked focus. For some odd reason, when I play a new note on the keyboard, it doesn't stand out from the existing sustained notes in the way it does on a real piano. I think it's the piano, not the speakers, as I get the same effect on headphones when I play loudly.

I note that Roland claim that their latest top end pianos have "Sound Focus" technology. Now that I've experienced their sound without that technology, I think they need it.

Fortunately, the concert will be on a real piano.

 

[Ms Music]

Fortunately, the concert will be on a real piano.

Best of luck to you! I have always thought it would be a fun challenge to attempt that piece (or 1 or 3), but my hands are too small...