Defending your home, how far would you go?

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In summary, the author suggests that if someone enters your home illegally, you should confront them and take appropriate action, depending on the situation. If the intruder has their hands in the air, you should use reasonable force to scare them away.
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  • #107
Well perhaps, Cyrus, we like going on these rants as it's all we have to do (its 4am where I am and I can't sleep, not much else to do really, painted the fence yesterday).
And seeing as you are sticking around, continually attacking this thread you deem worthless, I'd say you have nothing better to do. Other than join in these pointless rants. Possibly even enjoying it?
 
  • #108
jarednjames said:
Well perhaps, Cyrus, we like going on these rants as it's all we have to do (its 4am where I am and I can't sleep, not much else to do really, painted the fence yesterday).
And seeing as you are sticking around, continually attacking this thread you deem worthless, I'd say you have nothing better to do. Other than join in these pointless rants. Possibly even enjoying it?
Well, now you're taunting him. Just ignore him and get on with your thread.
 
  • #109
OAQfirst said:
Well, now you're taunting him. Just ignore him and get on with your thread.

I'm not taunting him. I'm dead serious. Why can't you people stay on topic? What's the point about bringing something up if everyone is going to run off into wild tangents?

It's also highly annoying to see everyone playing lawyer with speculation running a muck. This kind of stuff would never fly in the other forums, and I think it makes the forums look bad in general when this happens. It just lacks any and all credibility.

No one's posting any facts. Not one.
 
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  • #110
skeptic2 said:
To those who would quickly grab their gun, my understanding is that when weapons are stored at home, they are to be stored unloaded and locked up with the ammunition stored in a separate place and also locked up. How would one unlock his gun, unlock the ammunition, load the gun and still be an effective deterrent?
Where did you get your information about "when a weapon is stored at home"? There might be a few states back (New York, California maybe) out of 50 that require a firearm to be unloaded and locked but those would be an exception.
 
  • #111
Cyrus said:
I'm not taunting him. I'm dead serious. Why can't you people stay on topic? What's the point about bringing something up if everyone is going to run off into wild tangents?
I was addressing jarednjames.
 
  • #112
jarednjames said:
Marvellously done on that find. That would be the one.

No, you can't 'close the door on guns' as you so nicely put it, but you can impose stricter control laws. No carrying them etc.

Now you are entering a different discussion. A tired old topic. As it applies to the US, stricter gun control laws, ie. "No carrying", simply means that those who abide by the laws are rendered defenseless (unarmed) against those who have no regard for them. And so on and so forth...
 
  • #113
Good, now aside from about two people, will anyone else address the OP?

What would you do in the situation of hearing a noise, going to investigate and finding an intruder? To make Cyrus happy, let's leave law out of it. And nobody has a go at what someone says they would do.
 
  • #114
jarednjames said:
Good, now aside from about two people, will anyone else address the OP?

What would you do in the situation of hearing a noise, going to investigate and finding an intruder? To make Cyrus happy, let's leave law out of it. And nobody has a go at what someone says they would do.

Good, now you can discuss your heart out! :-p
 
  • #115
Did I mention that I have a niece who spent a year in Iraq. She had an M 16.
 
  • #116
edward said:
Did I mention that I have a niece who spent a year in Iraq. She had an M 16.

I love you. :!)
 
  • #117
jarednjames said:
Good, now aside from about two people, will anyone else address the OP?

What would you do in the situation of hearing a noise, going to investigate and finding an intruder? To make Cyrus happy, let's leave law out of it. And nobody has a go at what someone says they would do.

Tell him to freeze, identify himself, and proceed to call the police.
 
  • #118
jarednjames said:
What would you do in the situation of hearing a noise, going to investigate and finding an intruder? To make Cyrus happy, let's leave law out of it. And nobody has a go at what someone says they would do.

1. Have someone call the cops

2. If possible don't let the intruder know that you can see them to delay or avoid a confrontation if one isn't necessary (maybe they won't find anything valuable and leave).

3. Get a firearm for defense

4. If you must confront them, then get out the firearm and ask them why they are in my house (maybe they don't have malicious intent). If they are there to steal something then demand that they leave. If they pull out a gun, or come at me with a knife, then I would use the gun, and if I can think straight at that point I'd try to make the shot nonlethal and immediately inform the person who is on the phone with the emergency services (they always keep you on the phone) that someone has a gunshot wound.
 
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  • #119
What we think we would do in an emergency situation and what we would actually end up doing will be two differen't things. When the heart starts to pump , the adrenaline starts to flow, and the vison narrows our behavior become quite unpredictable.
 
  • #120
Well I haven't had an intruder as such, but I was in the house on my own late at night when I heard a noise downstairs, I went down quietly, grabbed a metal bar and walked into the kitchen saying "who the **** are you?"
Turned out to be a housemate who wasn't supposed to be back that night, in a rather drunken state.
 
  • #121
Cyrus said:
Anyways, my point is that your question is one you should ask in a legal forum. Not a physics forum. Unless anyone here is a lawyer that deals with this type of law, you're going to get garbage answers, and I hate to see people play pretend lawyer (unless you are a lawyer, that's exactly what were all doing) .
Honestly cyrus, this is a ridiculous objection. The OP asked a very simple "what would you do if ..." question. If you don't wish to engage in hypotheticals, don't. No one's dragging you into the thread.

We have tons of discussions about social issues, legal issues, dating issues, political issues, entertainment issues and most anything else under the sun ... all here in GD. We don't send the OPs off to find a social science forum or a legal forum or a dating forum or a politics forum to explore these ideas.

And many gun owners have a pretty good idea what their state laws regarding intruders/trespass are. And even if you don't know them, you can look for it, for example, at http://www.handgunlaw.us/.

If you live in Colorado, you click on the state and you find that the relevant law is CRS 18-1-704.5, which is easily looked up.

18-1-704.5. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

(1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.

(3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.

(4) Any occupant of a'dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.​

Colorado Revised Statutes - PDF file
 
  • #122
qntty said:
4. If you must confront them, then get out the firearm and ask them why they are in my house (maybe they don't have malicious intent). If they are there to steal something then demand that they leave.


What if ...

they lie?
 
  • #123
rootX said:
What if ...

they lie?

Like I said, please do not have a dig at what other people say they would do. I am not looking for a debate over silly little issues people have with the various premises of each persons opinion.
 
  • #124
Gokul43201 said:
Honestly cyrus, this is a ridiculous objection. The OP asked a very simple "what would you do if ..." question. If you don't wish to engage in hypotheticals, don't. No one's dragging you into the thread.

No, it's not because he then went on talking about the criminals rights. And I pointed out that there are legal implications involved with his statement and his answer of what he would do if he found a robber in his house.

We have tons of discussions about social issues, legal issues, dating issues, political issues, entertainment issues and most anything else under the sun ... all here in GD. We don't send the OPs off to find a social science forum or a legal forum or a dating forum or a politics forum to explore these ideas.

In the political forums, we require links to sources. For dating issues, well...sigh.

And many gun owners have a pretty good idea what their state laws regarding intruders/trespass are. And even if you don't know them, you can look for it, for example, at http://www.handgunlaw.us/.

If you live in Colorado, you click on the state and you find that the relevant law is CRS 18-1-704.5, which is easily looked up.

18-1-704.5. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

(1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.

(3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.

(4) Any occupant of a'dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.​

Colorado Revised Statutes - PDF file

Two points. First, this is the first real source I've seen (thank you). Now I've put the part in bold that can get you into trouble (legally) and requires a lawyer to understand. "reasonable belief" is a subjective statement that a lawyer could clearly define based on experience in dealing with similar cases. That's not a black and white statement.http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2009/may/30/man-who-shot-robber-now-facing-murder-charge/news/

So, as I was saying. You need a lawyer to answer this question. BTW, this guy was a gun owner. Clearly, he did not understand the law.
 
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  • #125
jarednjames said:
So you're in bed, here a noise downstairs and decide to investigate. You find it's an intruder. What do you do?

Get the family out of the property first, then call police emergency ("911"). Then probably leave myself.

http://www.kidpowervancouver.org/id41.html

"The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth"

Pulitzer prize-winner Studs Terkel was dozing off in a chair in his bedroom when an unmasked intruder appeared and demanded money. Terkel calmly talked to him about his life, how his wife has been ill and he'd been attending to her. Then he handed him all his cash. As the robber was about to leave, Terkel remembered he would need to take a taxicab in the morning and had to have cash. So he requested some money back. The intruder handed him a $20 bill, then took off.
 
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  • #126
Okay cyrus look, in my original post I gave my OPINION, not some fact. I did not say this would stand legally. The fact is, it is what I would do. That is what would be going through my mind, legal or not, that is what my post asked for. What would you would do in that situation.

Like I just said, leave the legal bit out and just let me know what you would do. Do not have a dig or scrutinize other peoples posts, just accept that's what they said they would do. I didn't want a debate on the legal issues here.

So once again let us focus on the question:
"So you're in bed, here a noise downstairs and decide to investigate. You find it's an intruder. What do you do?"
 
  • #127
jarednjames said:
Okay cyrus look, in my original post I gave my OPINION, not some fact. I did not say this would stand legally. The fact is, it is what I would do. That is what would be going through my mind, legal or not, that is what my post asked for. What would you would do in that situation.
Like I just said, leave the legal bit out and just let me know what you would do.

So once again let us focus on the question:
"So you're in bed, here a noise downstairs and decide to investigate. You find it's an intruder. What do you do?"

It should be fairly obvious from my posts that I'd just leave the house and call the cops because I don't want to wind up in jail myself over something trivial like a TV.

BTW: that guy in Gokuls link earlier should have gotten jail time. The police dispatch clearly told him not to go looking for the criminals, yet he went anyways.
 
  • #128
Cyrus said:
It should be fairly obvious from my posts that I'd just leave the house and call the cops because I don't want to wind up in jail myself over something trivial like a TV.

BTW: that guy in Gokuls link earlier should have gotten jail time. The police dispatch clearly told him not to go looking for the criminals, yet he went anyways.

Was that the one who shot the guy in the back as he ran off?
 
  • #129
jarednjames said:
Was that the one who shot the guy in the back as he ran off?

I believe they were stealing a tv out the window.
 
  • #130
Cyrus said:
I believe they were stealing a tv out the window.

Ah yes, just pulled the post up now. I agree, there is no justification in shooting someone like that. Once they're leaving let them go. Definitely shouldn't be a hero.
 
  • #131
jarednjames said:
Ah yes, just pulled the post up now. I agree, there is no justification in shooting someone like that. Once they're leaving let them go. Definitely shouldn't be a hero.

And that's exactly why I'm giving you a hard time about defining a criminals legal rights. It concerns your "hypothetical" because if your mentality is what you post, and you find yourself in that situation: you could be looking at jail time.

The only sensible answer to your hypothetical is what the law allows you to do. Saying what you would do otherwise is a waste of time and serves no purpose.
 
  • #132
Cyrus said:
And that's exactly why I'm giving you a hard time about defining a criminals legal rights. It concerns your "hypothetical" because if your mentality is what you post, and you find yourself in that situation: you could be looking at jail time.

Yes but the original post was fairly clear. I didn't ask what you think of my opinion on it. I still think that, my family thinks that and pretty much everyone I know thinks that (even two police officers I asked this to think that). I'm not here to debate whether my opinion is correct or not. What I wanted is an example of how you would react. Just to see what sort of things people would reply with. Would they agree with a similar opinion to me? Or would they have a completely opposite one? Simple.

Yes, the only sensible answer is what the law allows you to do, which is why I wanted the law plus what you felt, thus giving me a comparison as to just how far away from legal someone would be prepared to go. Your opinion on what you would do, does not have to be sensible. As with mine.
 
  • #134
Cyrus said:
Gokul, here is Oklahomas very similar law to that of Colorado (your link)

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeid=69782

Yet the man in the article I posted faces Jail time.

That's not a home invasion. Get back on topic.

So, if someone let's themselves into your house, you run away and call the police. Good for you. If someone let's themselves into *insert name here*'s house and he empties a shotgun into him, good for him. Both are legitimate actions and in most states would be legally justified. Yours leaves less of a mess.
 
  • #135
drankin said:
That's not a home invasion. Get back on topic.

So, if someone let's themselves into your house, you run away and call the police. Good for you. If someone let's themselves into *insert name here*'s house and he empties a shotgun into him, good for him. Both are legitimate actions and in most states would be legally justified. Yours leaves less of a mess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat

Now if you read into that link, you will find that in some cases you have to try and retreat, some cases you don't. The point is, it's not clear exactly what you can do. Unless you are a lawyer, I strongly suggest you find out for your jurisdiction before you go dragging bodies inside the house. (Yes, I know that wasn't literal. But the mentality of the comment indicates to me you probably don't take this seriously).

Have you looked into the law in your area concerning *exactly* when you can use force?
 
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  • #136
drankin said:
That's not a home invasion. Get back on topic.

So, if someone let's themselves into your house, you run away and call the police. Good for you. If someone let's themselves into *insert name here*'s house and he empties a shotgun into him, good for him. Both are legitimate actions and in most states would be legally justified. Yours leaves less of a mess.

In addition:

House Bill 2615 closely resembles Florida’s recently passed "Stand Your Ground" law. Calvey’s bill would amend Oklahoma’s current "Make My Day" law to allow residents to use force, even deadly force, to protect themselves when they believe they are in danger in any place a person has a legal right to be, such as their office, supermarket or on the street.

http://www.okhouse.gov/OkhouseMedia/pressroom.aspx?NewsID=270
 
  • #137
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat

Now if you read into that link, you will find that in some cases you have to try and retreat, some cases you don't. The point is, it's not clear exactly what you can do. Unless you are a lawyer, I strongly suggest you find out for your jurisdiction before you go dragging bodies inside the house. (Yes, I know that wasn't literal. But the mentality of the comment indicates to me you probably don't take this seriously).

Have you looked into the law in your area concerning *exactly* when you can use force?
Duty to retreat varies. If you kill someone on the street, you need extremely good justification. "He had a weapon" isn't good justification. Even if you're being mugged, most jurisdictions will give you a hard time about killing your assailant unless you have a good reason to believe your life was in danger and had no other recourse but to kill.

However, the law gives you much more leeway in your house. The castle doctrine or so-called "make my day" laws in certain states require little more than a reasonable belief that the intruder had malicious intent. Even states without such laws give people much more freedom to act if their home is being invaded. The duty to retreat does not apply as stringently to a person's house as it does elsewhere.

For more info:

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d030.htm"
 
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  • #138
Cyrus said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat

Now if you read into that link, you will find that in some cases you have to try and retreat, some cases you don't. The point is, it's not clear exactly what you can do. Unless you are a lawyer, I strongly suggest you find out for your jurisdiction before you go dragging bodies inside the house. (Yes, I know that wasn't literal. But the mentality of the comment indicates to me you probably don't take this seriously).

Have you looked into the law in your area concerning *exactly* when you can use force?

Yes, and I don't live in Oklahoma. I can use deadly force in my home against an intruder. As it should be for any person who is threatened by an uninvited hoodlum in their home. Do you disagree? If you do, that's fine. But understand that most people feel they have the right to use deadly force to protect themselves and their family, particularly in their own house. You have that right, whether you exercise it or not is up to you. If you don't think that you have that right because of the state you live in, remember this: It's better to do six than to be buried six.
 
  • #139
drankin said:
Yes, and I don't live in Oklahoma. I can use deadly force in my home against an intruder. As it should be for any person who is threatened by an uninvited hoodlum in their home. Do you disagree? If you do, that's fine. But understand that most people feel they have the right to use deadly force to protect themselves and their family, particularly in their own house. You have that right, whether you exercise it or not is up to you. If you don't think that you have that right because of the state you live in, remember this: It's better to do six than to be buried six.

There is one, and only one reason I would kill someone:

If a person is walking towards my back door with your TV in his hand and I shoot him in the back, I get charged with murder.

If a person is attempting to enter my house and I shoot him, again I should get murder. (I should have said: "Leave my house, and pointed the gun at him".

If the person enters the house waiving a knife/gun, and I tell him to go away while presenting a gun at him, and he *still* tries to do harm - then I would take him down.

Basically, you better make sure you do every, single, last, possible, thing before you decide to shoot someone in your house. It is not worth the legal risk. It really better be a last resort.

If you read the 911 call that Gokul linked, that guy couldn't wait to get his old shotgun out and shoot-em-up because stealing his tv is 'just not right'.

Note: Also factor in where you live. Some places are very anti-gun. If you live in an anti-gun part of town and you somehow end up in court, how do you think that Jury is going to vote against you?

I have a friend of a friend who is a deputy in the sheriffs department. He said a lot of people come to this area specifically to do crimes because the courts go easy on them.
 
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  • #140
Cyrus, I do agree with you. I would not shoot someone just because they broke into my house. Personally, I would have to feel immenently threatened and it would be a last resort. But, if someone else does shoot an intruder I do not hold it against them. They are justified IMO. If I happened to be on the jury, I would side with the homeowner. You may not share the same opinion but understand that a persons home is their place of safety and may be the only place on Earth they have control of their surroundings. I particularly think about those who are physically at a disadvantage when a thug may enter their home, the elderly, women, disabled, etc. A jury is likely to side with them. Myself, tall, athletic, healthy, I would have to show that I had no choice. But that isn't my motivation. I just don't want to kill someone if I don't have to.
 

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