Do You Experience Number Forms ?

[206PiruBlood]

Is it normal for one to immediately see an image of what ever it is they are thinking about? And is it normal to be able to manipulate complicated images in your head at will? For example if I think of France, I can see a map of the world with France highlighted. I can zoom in on this map at or morph it into any other image, a dinosaur chasing a sandwich through the jungle perhaps. When I read the descriptions of others, that tends to be what I visualize. If I think number line, I see number line etc.

The difference seems to be that while I visualize at will, number forms occur spontaneously and remain continuously.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Is it normal for one to immediately see an image of what ever it is they are thinking about?

That's a good question. How normal it is depends on what you mean by "see". How vivid is that compared to actually seeing a real object or scene? When you "see" something you're imagining, is it very vivid, like watching a sort of film or video projected into the space in front of you?

When I "see" something, when I imagine it, it is a very low grade, dim, experience compared to seeing something real, and it is obviously "in my mind"; no chance of mistaking it for something real, in the external world. It's nothing like a film.

I can't say what's actually normal because people aren't tested for this and there's always an assumption everyone else thinks the way you do. One thing this thread demonstrates is that people who get clear indications they envision things differently than those around them learn not to talk about it.

The verb "to see" is pretty ambiguous and all purpose, and if you suddenly announced you "see" France as a dinosaur chasing a sandwich through a jungle in a conversation, I would automatically assume this was a sort of editorial metaphor that meant you think the French are way out of date and all they care about is their cuisine. Even if you clarified that this is an image you "see" in reaction to the image of a map of France I would still just assume you meant you'd created a cartoon-like mental image to embody your poor opinion of the French. It would not occur to me that your image was actually just an abstract chain of visual reactions to the shape of the map of France and I would also automatically assume it was as vivid, or I should say, non-vivid, as my own imaginings.

The difference seems to be that while I visualize at will, number forms occur spontaneously and remain continuously.

No, it's more than that. It sounds to me like you may have an exceptionally vivid sensory component to your imagination, and that you aren't aware everyone else is not the same. OR it could be you actually "see" things as dimly as I do, and don't realize how sensorily vivid synesthesia and Number Forms are. I can't really tell which it is.

I can imagine and describe some pretty extravagant surreal images and add any sensory information you want, but my experience of these images is actually very low grade. When Tesla "imagined" one of his inventions, however, it looked so real and three dimensional to him he could not understand why everyone else couldn't see it.

Now, I have had some hallucinations during sleep paralysis, and those were vivid! They seemed absolutely real: they passed every test of every sense for reality. So, I have direct experience of how vivid brain-created images can be. When I "imagine" or "see" something under normal circumstances, it is nothing like that. It is dim, vague, grainy, muted colors, no real spatial depth, and obviously "in my head".

 

[206PiruBlood]

The transition from France to dinosaur sandwiches was just an example of how I can manipulate images consciously; the two aren't necessarily related .

The images I see are difficult to describe in any meaningful way, but I guess all emotions and sensations are difficult to express. The images definitely appear to be in my mind and not projected in front of me. So in that respect it is nothing like a film; however, I do feel I can essentially watch a video in my mind.. How vivid these images are is difficult to convey.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The transition from France to dinosaur sandwiches was just an example of how I can manipulate images consciously; the two aren't necessarily related .

OK. Our French readers can rest easier.

The images I see are difficult to describe is any meaningful way, but I guess all emotions and sensations are difficult to express. The images definitely appear to be in my mind and not projected in front of me. So in that respect it is nothing like a film; however, I do feel I can essentially watch a video in my mind.. How vivid these images are is difficult to convey.

When I'm doing a lot of writing, as I have been lately here on PF, just about all my imaginings are verbal: I am primarily hearing my inner voice modeling sentences to express concepts. When I get away from writing I become more visual. When I go on a music listening binge, my "thinking" consists primarily of interminable fantasias in the style of the composer I've been listening to. (I'm also very prone to "ear worms": having the same song play over and over in my head.) There was a time I was heavily into films and film making, and, of course, then I was seeing "movies" in my head interminably.

Practicing a certain kind of mental modeling will lead to that becoming more vivid, I think.

 

[rhody]

I'm amazed at how well people learn to get by with something so vivid going on that no one else is aware of, and that you can't talk about. When I was having 100 deja vu's a day, I could, at least, tell people because almost everyone had had at least one and knew what I was talking about. Each number form is so personal and idiosyncratic you're guaranteed to never run into someone with the same, exact experience.

When I'm doing a lot of writing, as I have been lately here on PF, just about all my imaginings are verbal: I am primarily hearing my inner voice modeling sentences to express concepts. When I get away from writing I become more visual. When I go on a music listening binge, my "thinking" consists primarily of interminable fantasias in the style of the composer I've been listening to. (I'm also very prone to "ear worms": having the same song play over and over in my head.) There was a time I was heavily into films and film making, and, of course, then I was seeing "movies" in my head interminably.

Practicing a certain kind of mental modeling will lead to that becoming more vivid, I think.

Zooby,

First, deja-vu. I read this in a couple of your posts awhile ago, and wanted to ask about it, you stated most people could relate to the experience. I have a few questions, first, when did it start, what brings on the experience, can you turn it off, and have they (the deja vu moments, up to 100 per day) been part of any real past experiences, or just an imagined ones ? Finally, what is your clinical opinion of this ? I could have researched it beforehand but would rather hear it from you, areas of the brain involved, etc...

Second, what is going on with you in the second paragraph above. You also said when in "listening mode" when listening to music you hear it repeated in your head (ear worms), and describe a similar tendency when you write, shifting modes. How do you practice this to make it more vivid ?

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

First, deja-vu. I read this in a couple of your posts awhile ago, and wanted to ask about it, you stated most people could relate to the experience. I have a few questions, first, when did it start, what brings on the experience, can you turn it off, and have they (the deja vu moments, up to 100 per day) been part of any real past experiences, or just an imagined ones ? Finally, what is your clinical opinion of this ? I could have researched it beforehand but would rather hear it from you, areas of the brain involved, etc...

I can't talk about deja vu's here or I'll hijack my own thread. I could write a book.

Second, what is going on with you in the second paragraph above. You also said when in "listening mode" when listening to music you hear it repeated in your head (ear worms), and describe a similar tendency when you write, shifting modes. How do you practice this to make it more vivid ?

The point of that paragraph was just to say that whenever I'm preoccupied with concepts my "thinking" (the activity I'm aware of going on in my mind) consists primarily of speech. When I have been listening to a lot of music, it consists of music, when I have been preoccupied with visual images (art, photography, movies) it consists of visual images.

So, when I hear a person say they are primarily a "visual" or an "auditory" person, I think all it means is that the particular sense modality they mention is really just the one they are currently preoccupied with.

An "earworm" is when you get a song "stuck in your head" (i.e. it is not a musical hallucination, or anything synesthetic, if that's what you were wondering).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earworm

I find that if I accidentally hear a song I really like, it may become replayed over and over in my head a lot in the next few days until it becomes an annoyance. It's something you try to get rid of, not make more vivid.

 

[DaveC426913]

If these "feelings" are always consistant, if 6, for instance always, invariably, "feels" a yellow color, then I'd speculate that you have a low grade grapheme -> color form of synesthesia.

When I was young, I thought I had this. I had a strong association between numbers and colours.

As I've grown older, I've come to conclude that it was just a strong association with a my colouring book whose cover had the numbers 1 to 10 in big multi-coloured pie slices.

 

[zoobyshoe]

When I was young, I thought I had this. I had a strong association between numbers and colours.

As I've grown older, I've come to conclude that it was just a strong association with a my colouring book whose cover had the numbers 1 to 10 in big multi-coloured pie slices.

Cytowic always cites the example of Nabokov, who, as a toddler, didn't like the blocks his parents gave him because the colors were "all wrong". If you were synesthetic, therefore, that coloring book ought to have bothered you. The chances of the colors coinciding with someone's syesthetic colors are not high.

edit: Synesthesia is genetic, but parents and their children never share the same color associations. Nabokov married a syesthete, and their son is synesthetic, but all three have different grapheme -> color associations. Cytowic cites a family in which the father and two children were always arguing which associations were "right", while the mother, a non-synesthete, sat quietly bewildered.

 

[croesoswallt]

I was compelled to sign up to your forum just to respond to this thread!

I was searching on google for "what shape do you imagine the days of the week?" and this was pretty much the only thing that came up, I'm glad it was on a physics forum rather than a psychology forum, it seems appropriate.

I experience these forms and was aware that other people did, but thought probably more than 1/10. It does seem surprising that most people don't conceive of things in this manner, it seems like the very nature of abstract concepts demands this sort of personal system.

I often ask people what colour they envision the days of the week to be, I think people without these numberform tendencies can do that pretty easily, or it is a more readily available form to the public mind maybe through culture (blue monday, ruby tuesday etc.!).

I see the weeks flowing from right to left
MONDAY
TUESDAY
WEDNESDAY
THURSDAY
FRIDAY
SATURDAY
SUNDAY (white)

They are contained within the months somehow like a square though in a perfectly linear fashion. The months are contained in the year as a U shape, with a gap between January and December which is simultaneously huge and negligible, only certain months have colour, though the ones that do not each have their own brand of uncolour.

The years and decades progress directly upwards save a small curve which simultaneously travels in opposite directions, like a fourth dimensional double helix, with another overall trend slightly to the right. The previous years extend to my bottom left twisting and turning in unfathomable ways through the middle ages, the epochs seem to flatten out while expanding infinitely.

The numerical system is very similar to the diagrams early in the thread and some of the descriptions which followed. 1-10 is a gentle slope of about 12 degrees to the right, yet it seems to end at a place more like 70 degrees. 11 and 12 merge with one another then 13-20 curves to an almost perpendicular line. The tens of numbers extend to 100 in a straight line which also has bends. The thirties are green, the forties are blue and green, the 50s are red, 60s green, 70s yellow, 80s blue and red, 90s mucky yellow.

I'm also a professional musician, I teach a bit of music theory and try and encorporate some elements of patterns and forms to harmonic concepts (which of course already have some standardised visual forms) to my teaching method.

 

[Chi Meson]

I have come to wonder about the "1 in 10" figure for these number forms. I brought this topic up in all of my classes this past week, and when describing the phenomenon, I essentially got over 50 blank stares. One person gave a "maybe, kinda" response which might have been a visual association with the "number line" as learned in school. It certainly wasn't the number forms as described earlier with the bends and turns.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I was compelled to sign up to your forum just to respond to this thread!......I'm also a professional musician, I teach a bit of music theory and try and encorporate some elements of patterns and forms to harmonic concepts (which of course already have some standardised visual forms) to my teaching method.

Thanks for joining and posting!

I wonder if you could elucidate the degree of "realness" these things have.

The most information you're going to find is most likely in the book Wednesday is Indigo Blue. Amazon has it. I'm reading it now and the authors pay a good amount of attention to number forms.

 

[Moonbear]

A "number form" is an involuntary chart, of sorts, that pops into some people's minds when they consider things like calendars (months, days), times of day, the alphabet, or even just numbers from 1 to infinity.

These "charts" have their elements grouped rather idiosynchratically from other people's perspective but to the person experiencing the "Number Form" they make absolute sense and seem inevitable. People refer to these charts all the time and visualize them being out in space around them. For some people they're colorless, but for others they are colored and may have some element of motion to them.

"The pattern or 'Form' in which the numerals are seen is by no means the same in different persons, but assumes the most grotesque variety of shapes, which run in all sorts of angles, bends, curves, and zigzags...
...These forms...are stated in all cases to have been in existence, so far as the earlier numbers in the Form are concerned, as long back as the memory extends; they come 'into view quite independently' of the will, and their shape and position...are nearly invariable."
-Galton 1907

These charts are said to be indispensable to the people who experience and use them and they are surprised when they find out everyone doesn't have the same thing going on. In fact, it's estimated only one-in-ten people has them.

I, myself, don't experience this, and I only ever heard about it the first time a couple weeks ago. What's interesting is that, apparently, Feynman had it, and saw colored equations projected into space in front of him.

Any of you have "Number Forms"?

Nope, not I. When I think of something like dates or a calendar, I think of it in the standard calendar grid form.

Though, associating colors with numbers would be a form of synesthesia, which is indeed fairly rare. I found out only recently that a very good childhood friend of mine experiences this...and I always thought he was absolutely brilliant with numbers (he has a Ph.D. in physics). He didn't admit it when he was younger because he didn't realize until much older that this wasn't the way everyone "saw" numbers. No wonder he got me hooked on highlighters in the 8th grade!

 

[zoobyshoe]

I have come to wonder about the "1 in 10" figure for these number forms. I brought this topic up in all of my classes this past week, and when describing the phenomenon, I essentially got over 50 blank stares. One person gave a "maybe, kinda" response which might have been a visual association with the "number line" as learned in school. It certainly wasn't the number forms as described earlier with the bends and turns.

So far, I have to agree. I have to think that if it were as common as 1 in 10 someone I've met in my 55 years would have let something slip in conversation that would have stood out.

This thread's had over 1500 views with only a handful of positive responses. If the stats are correct this could mean that people remain too shy, or, it could mean people who experience number forms tend to veer away from the sciences because of the maths involved: everyone's said they tend to get in the way. Really, though, I suspect the statistics are incorrect.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Nope, not I. When I think of something like dates or a calendar, I think of it in the standard calendar grid form.

Though, associating colors with numbers would be a form of synesthesia, which is indeed fairly rare.

Well, the researchers are saying 1 in 23 people has some form of it! (Synesthesia, I mean.)

Associating colors with numbers and letters (graphemes) is one of the very most common forms.

I found out only recently that a very good childhood friend of mine experiences this...and I always thought he was absolutely brilliant with numbers (he has a Ph.D. in physics). He didn't admit it when he was younger because he didn't realize until much older that this wasn't the way everyone "saw" numbers.

You ought to invite him to post and describe it.

No wonder he got me hooked on highlighters in the 8th grade!

Wow! I just realized highlighters are part of their plot to take over!

 

[rhody]

I was compelled to sign up to your forum just to respond to this thread!

croesoswallt,

Welcome to PF, all forums have a high signal to noise ratio, and are monitored and mentored, which is the reason an educated crowd hangs out here. Maybe this is a first, but I doubt it, I am sure you have found zooby's insight and descriptions funny, thought provoking and one of the reasons this thread still has plenty of life left. Zooby's suggestion that Cytowic's research into synesthesia would be of interest is what tweaked my curiosity to read "The Man Who Tasted Shapes". I don't have synesthesia, however think there is much more to learn regarding the mingling of the senses. People with the different forms allow scientists to study parts of the brain with unparalleled precision. I know more books, possibly lectures on this amazing subject are in store for me.

Rhody...

 

[Chi Meson]

Interesting! Explain about the shapes, which are particularly intriguing because it seems to go both ways.

This one was hard to explain, but I just had an episode last night which I was able to recognize. My son had lost one of the buttons to his watch, and it was on the floor of his room. I am and have always been a good "finder of small things." It was a metallic button (it fell out of a very cheap watch) and it was lying on a taupe carpet among various bits of boy's room detritus. While scanning the floor, I was aware that I was kind of "listening" for it, just as much as looking. As various things came into view, little sounds such as "thud" "zip" "nik" "vum" (not exactly those, but that's a close an approximation as I can get), but In retrospect, I "recognized" the correct sound when I saw it: "bimp," same as a ball bearing from a bicycle hub.

I have always found it very distracting, to the point of great confusion, if I am trying to find something when there is noise around me. Not the best combination with two boys, 5 and 7 years old.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This one was hard to explain, but I just had an episode last night which I was able to recognize. My son had lost one of the buttons to his watch, and it was on the floor of his room. I am and have always been a good "finder of small things." It was a metallic button (it fell out of a very cheap watch) and it was lying on a taupe carpet among various bits of boy's room detritus. While scanning the floor, I was aware that I was kind of "listening" for it, just as much as looking. As various things came into view, little sounds such as "thud" "zip" "nik" "vum" (not exactly those, but that's a close an approximation as I can get), but In retrospect, I "recognized" the correct sound when I saw it: "bimp," same as a ball bearing from a bicycle hub.

I have always found it very distracting, to the point of great confusion, if I am trying to find something when there is noise around me. Not the best combination with two boys, 5 and 7 years old.

This is amazing! It gives me a spooky Tommy feeling, like you could play pinball by sense of smell.

What sound would a pinball make? A deeper, lower pitched "bimp"?

 

[Chi Meson]

It really doesn't seem to work when I look at anything to "find out what sound it makes." I need to be in a state of concentration, and things have to be quiet, and I essentially notice it only after some degree of repetition.

When I try to "hear" things, I'm too conscious about the whole thing, and I'm aware that I might be projecting a sound on a thing rather than experiencing a sound.

It's extremely obvious though, when I play the game "Set." Finding cards with combinations of color, quantity, shading and shapes... it's freaking cacophonous .

Edit: I just realized something, while thinking about the "pinball" question: There is no pitch to these noises. It's all monotone.

 

[rhody]

I need to be in a state of concentration, and things have to be quiet, and I essentially notice it only after some degree of repetition.

Just a quick question, when you say quiet, you mean like quiet with no background noise, or quiet in your state of mind ? You mention repetition, like it doesn't happen at first but only when you relax, and the sensation starts to flow ? Do you notice it more intense when the room is quiet and after you are really tired or have been drinking ? (that is if you do drink ?)

Finally, can you cause it to vanish at will, and if so, what thing or combination of things remove the sensation ?

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

It really doesn't seem to work when I look at anything to "find out what sound it makes." I need to be in a state of concentration, and things have to be quiet, and I essentially notice it only after some degree of repetition.

When I try to "hear" things, I'm too conscious about the whole thing, and I'm aware that I might be projecting a sound on a thing rather than experiencing a sound.

It's extremely obvious though, when I play the game "Set." Finding cards with combinations of color, quantity, shading and shapes... it's freaking cacophonous .

Truly amazing. You might want to get that book, Wednesday is Indigo Blue. There are a few reports from similar people who "hear" what are essentially visual experiences, with the same disorienting result when there's too many stimuli.

 

[waht]

It's extremely obvious though, when I play the game "Set." Finding cards with combinations of color, quantity, shading and shapes... it's freaking cacophonous

Can you find any patterns by sound if you know what sound to look for? or is the noise just random?

 

[Chi Meson]

Just a quick question, when you say quiet, you mean like quiet with no background noise, or quiet in your state of mind ? You mention repetition, like it doesn't happen at first but only when you relax, and the sensation starts to flow ? Do you notice it more intense when the room is quiet and after you are really tired or have been drinking ? (that is if you do drink ?)

Finally, can you cause it to vanish at will, and if so, what thing or combination of things remove the sensation ?

Rhody...

I'm trying to separate what actually happens from what I think ought to happen. I am trying hard not to project here, but it is clear that the easiest way to get this to stop is to start concentrating on it. To get it going, I need to concentrate on something else.

So by quiet, I did mean "externally quiet." But as I also need to be in a state of concentration, I guess I also mean "internally quiet." Such as assembling a model or putting together a design from a building toy. K'nex for example. I'd be looking through the big box for 24 small green rods from a colossal assortment of other shapes and colors. So I'm sorting and picking, and about halfway through I'd be aware of the sound of the piece I was collecting. Also when a single, peculiar piece is needed, I can find it fairly quickly and I know it's the right piece because the shape and sound matched that of the one in the picture-instructions.

I don't drink much anymore, but in recollection, I don't think that it enhances the sensations. The same for being tired. Since both of these situations are going the wrong way from "state of concentration," I'd have to say that concentration is key.

 

[Moonbear]

Well, the researchers are saying 1 in 23 people has some form of it! (Synesthesia, I mean.)

That still seems like an overestimate to me. Though, if my friend's experience is typical, we may simply not hear from all the people affected by it since they either 1) don't realize what they experience is not normal or 2) don't want to share their experience out of fear of being considered abnormal.

You ought to invite him to post and describe it.

I would, but he's pretty busy with raising a kid and now getting back into a musical career. He also recently shared that musical notes also have colors to him. So, yeah, I'm also very curious if using multiple senses has helped him learn these subjects more than those of us who haven't used these associations to learn these subjects.

Wow! I just realized highlighters are part of their plot to take over!

LOL! We were in school when highlighters and colored inks were first being marketed (aside from red ink, of course). He was part of my lab group then, and we all had lots of fun with highlighters and competed for who could get the highest grade over 100% in the class (each exam had an extra credit question). It was actually very useful to me, even if others cringe at the abuse of highlighters. I used to go through my notes and highlight content very systematically. Each color meant something different for me. Nowadays, I couldn't even remember the significance of colors to give an example, but I have seen this with my med students too. Some of them really struggle their first year when they try to do like their classmates and take notes on their computers. For them, I've found that they are usually the students who took notes in multiple colors as an undergraduate, and do very well when I simply suggest that they ignore their classmates and go back to using colored pens to take notes in class.

 

[waht]

I found it, in the chapter called "It's as simple as One, Two, Three..."

The chapter is kind of remarkable because you see that Feynman was a natural neurologist. He discovered neuro-psychological testing, from scratch, all on his own.

What Do You Care What Other People Think p. 59

I know this is a long shot, but is it well established now that Feynman had synesthesia based on this reference? At least Gleick was pretty sure of it.

Feynman is quoted talking about this also in another book, No Ordinary Genius. He's highly alert to the fact that no two physicists are speaking the same language, and the "linguistic" differences are due to the fact each processes very simple things in different ways. Feynman felt he always had to "translate" himself, and that other physicists were usually not even aware there was a language problem, erroneously assuming that everyone thought the same way they did.

Wouldn't this be also true of other great speakers, teachers or story tellers? Can't think of a non-physicists off the top my head, but Neil Degrass Tyson seems to have this ability. He can explain what a black hole is to an 8 year old, and yet many adults find the same explanation fascinating, and thrilling.

 

[waht]

Some of them really struggle their first year when they try to do like their classmates and take notes on their computers. For them, I've found that they are usually the students who took notes in multiple colors as an undergraduate, and do very well when I simply suggest that they ignore their classmates and go back to using colored pens to take notes in class.

Most of my notes look like pages from children's coloring books. Just couple of days ago, I bought a new 12 color uni-ball pen set. My notes and calculations are in black, and then I circle, box, underline or connect various parts of my work with lines, and curves of different colors. Sometimes I shade them too.

 

[rhody]

I know this is a long shot, but is it well established now that Feynman had synesthesia based on this reference? At least Gleick was pretty sure of it.

waht,

I mentioned this before, I believe James Gleick was aware that Feynman was unique in many ways described in previous posts. I don't believe he was aware that Feynman had what Cytowic defines as synesthesia because Gleck published his book in 1992, while Cytowic first published his in 1993, so unless he knew him there would be no way for him to be aware of synesthesia. See my original comments about Feynman in post #53.

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

I haven't followed this thread closely, so maybe this has already been discussed. But does it have to always be numbers?

A woman I used to work with had a grandson who was about 4 or 5 years old. She had all his "masterpiece" art work on the fridge, of course, including several that featured the alphabet. She noticed that for each alphabet, every letter was a different crayon color, and it was always the same sequence of colors! He'd made these sequences over a very long period of time, and rarely in the kitchen where he would have been able to see his old ones to follow the pattern.

Also not sure if it's pertinent, but the kid was in the process of being evaluated for autism. I have no idea how that came out, though.

 

[rhody]

I haven't followed this thread closely, so maybe this has already been discussed. But does it have to always be numbers?

A woman I used to work with had a grandson who was about 4 or 5 years old. She had all his "masterpiece" art work on the fridge, of course, including several that featured the alphabet. She noticed that for each alphabet, every letter was a different crayon color, and it was always the same sequence of colors! He'd made these sequences over a very long period of time, and rarely in the kitchen where he would have been able to see his old ones to follow the pattern.

Also not sure if it's pertinent, but the kid was in the process of being evaluated for autism. I have no idea how that came out, though.

Lisa,

From the synessthesia thread, my https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=393977&page=6" colors can apply to quite a few things:

1. Mingling of two or more of the sensations (sight, sound, touch, taste, smell) in a cross modal fashion. Most commonly reported is color and hearing. Rarer types: page 232 from Dr Sean Day's study of 365 cases, all in percentages:

Note: The first group are grapheme associations, the rest, rarer still are mingled sense sensations:

colored time units: 19.2
colored musical sounds 14.5
colored general sounds 12.1
colored phonemes 9.6
colored musical notes 10.4
colored tastes 6.3
colored personalities 4.4
colored pain 4.4 (woah, I would like to hear from someone with this trait)
colored odors 5.8
colored temperature 2.2
colored touch 1.9

As you see my note above: I would love for someone who experiences colored pain to describe it, I imagine though, they would only experience it if they were sitting quietly reading and then something fell (without them hearing it) and bopped them on the head, or other part of their body.

Funny, you should mention color stimulation, I was going to ask about color pain eventually anyway, thanks, you beat me to it.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

I know this is a long shot, but is it well established now that Feynman had synesthesia based on this reference? At least Gleick was pretty sure of it.

It's not established at all. All there is is one quote that sounds very much like he's describing a synesthetic experience. Cytowic, for reasons unknown to me, has decided to declare Feynman had a number form. There's really no indication I can see that he did. If anything,the quote indicates he had a bit of Teslavision, like you.

Wouldn't this be also true of other great speakers, teachers or story tellers? Can't think of a non-physicists off the top my head, but Neil Degrass Tyson seems to have this ability. He can explain what a black hole is to an 8 year old, and yet many adults find the same explanation fascinating, and thrilling.

It's not a matter of being able to explain yourself to an untrained person. Feynman realized no two physicists are talking the same language. He had to both translate what they were saying to his tongue, and then what he was saying into theirs. At the same time he'd try to teach them some of his language.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I haven't followed this thread closely, so maybe this has already been discussed. But does it have to always be numbers?

A number form can be formed around anything that is a sequence, including the alphabet. Cytowic mentions a woman who has a number form for the relative heights of people she knows, for relative shoe sizes, and for relative salaries. Many people seem to have them for the calendar and the hours of the day.

A woman I used to work with had a grandson who was about 4 or 5 years old. She had all his "masterpiece" art work on the fridge, of course, including several that featured the alphabet. She noticed that for each alphabet, every letter was a different crayon color, and it was always the same sequence of colors! He'd made these sequences over a very long period of time, and rarely in the kitchen where he would have been able to see his old ones to follow the pattern.

This sounds more like Grapheme -> Color Synesthesia than a number form, but it depends on whether the letters have a consistant, but idiosyncratic positioning relative to each other.

 

[WiFO215]

Does this mean 1 week = 7 boxes? Therefore each box = 1 day? Or something else?

Also, you said the boxes were thin. Can you estimate a ratio of height to length? Is the longer dimension horizontal or vertical?

I get the fact there is an involuntary grouping by seven that seems to serve no purpose, but I am trying to imagine what an individual group or box looks like and what's in it. Like, I'm asking myself: "Is one 'box' a tall, skinny column of seven consecutive numbers stacked on top of each other"?

The boxes are tall and thin, but I cannot measure the dimensions of the box no matter how good your scale is. It's somewhat fuzzy and that's all I can say. If you look at the numbers, I can tell you that 200 is "above" the 100 line of boxes and 800 is also "above" the 200 line. But this isn't any sort of above or below that you can see on a day to day basis. It isn't like you look up and see 800. There is just an obvious sense of 800 "below" 1000. This sense of above and below also fuzzes out after a certain number range. For "large numbers" (~million) I can't see anything. I can "zoom in" and do the math here, i.e. if the addition to large number is in the non-fuzzy region. I can just forget the million and "bring back" the boxes.

I've used a lot of quotes above, but all those words in quotes aren't what they mean generally. I'm just hoping I don't sound like a bloody fool, but this is the best I can explain this stuff. In a previous post, I added there was no above and below. I meant that there wasn't an above and below in a 'local' region.

 

[croesoswallt]

I'm interested to know how those who don't consider themselves to have numberforms manage to perceive abstract concepts.

I wonder if you could elucidate the degree of "realness" these things have.

This is a significant point, the forms seem possibly more real than anything I see with my eyes, yet their physicality is incomprehensible. How real are they for others?

How do those of you who consider yourselves to not have these forms perceive of say, the time of day? If someone says I'll meet you at 7:30 pm I imagine a time darkening with the day and somewhere high above my head, the morning is situated within my belly. Does a non-numberform-experiencer just see a clock? If so, that clock must be situated somewhere in relation to the personage surely? Or is it within?

I do have a strong feeling however that these forms are at learned at a very young age while the mind is still developing and is less inclined to attribute beliefs and reasonings to the world, however certain people are more susceptible to it, full blown synesthetes being the extreme end. The numbers, for example, may be grouped in a way that they were learned. 1-10 were learned together first, then the concepts of 11 and 12 are introduced, then the incline towards 20 is brought to our awareness, then the patterns which seem to be perceived in accordance with the 20s, 30s, 40s etc. are similar as their relation to one another required a similar teaching method.

The most information you're going to find is most likely in the book Wednesday is Indigo Blue. Amazon has it. I'm reading it now and the authors pay a good amount of attention to number forms.

I shall be purchasing it, sounds like a good read.

I have a friend who also experiences forms, he also has perfect pitch which he attributes partially to colour associations with notes. I'll link him to the thread and see if he wants to pop in and discuss it.

 

[croesoswallt]

The boxes are tall and thin, but I cannot measure the dimensions of the box no matter how good your scale is. It's somewhat fuzzy and that's all I can say. If you look at the numbers, I can tell you that 200 is "above" the 100 line of boxes and 800 is also "above" the 200 line. But this isn't any sort of above or below that you can see on a day to day basis. It isn't like you look up and see 800. There is just an obvious sense of 800 "below" 1000. This sense of above and below also fuzzes out after a certain number range. For "large numbers" (~million) I can't see anything. I can "zoom in" and do the math here, i.e. if the addition to large number is in the non-fuzzy region. I can just forget the million and "bring back" the boxes.

This is a great description, when I try and map out physically the shape of numbers or anything it doesn't seem accurate, it can only be experienced in it's fullest and most clear form in very temporary, unintended moments. Thinking about numbers will instantly draw up a form, but if one begins to consider the form itself, it disappears, or at least becomes a corruption of itself?

So is it safe to say you also experience a 'fourth dimensional' element to these forms? A within-ness and a point in space being simultaneously in two places?

 

[croesoswallt]

Forms for a keyboard and beginnings of number system I just drew up.

 

[rhody]

This is a general comment to all contributing in this thread, the subject of synesthesia and in particular "Number Forms" whether experienced as a synesthestic (by Cytowic's current definition) or in general, without obvious external stimulus. I believe there is much to be learned from observation and rigorous scientific experiment by experts, we are just scratching the surface, even in the face of everyone's ineffable and incongruous experience, unique to each individual.

Would anyone out there care to venture an educated guess as to the nature of what that might be ? A new underlying principle in agreement with or perhaps shattering to the agreed upon definition and validation of quantum mechanics as we know it ?

From the descriptions expressed of Number Forms it seems (to me at least) that there is some inscrutable (for the moment hehe) principle at work.

Rhody...