Do you feel proud to your contry?

[russ_watters]

Well there r a 100 reasons to be proud of being an Egyptian, but that's just it..I'm more fond of my city than my whole country, i think of myself as alexandrian 1st, and then Egyptian...This is kinda strange but it ahs been always like that for me

There are Americans who are that way as well - they tend to be in specific groups.

 

[russ_watters]

So the question is: Who's definition shall we stick too? The Swedish, the American, the Dutch, the Canadian, the Chinese,...? If I vote for the first, would that make me a patriot? (Or nationalist, or how was it?) So maybe I will wait for someone else to deside, just in order to make it clear that I'm not patriotic! (Accordning to my definition)

I took a class called "nations and nationalism" in college and the class analyzed the causes and effects of nationalism (as well as related issues like patriotism and xenophobia) all over the world. I'd be interested in hearing scholarly definitions from around the world, but I'm not inclined to accept popular definitions.

It's a lot like the debate on defining "terrorism" - since it is an emotionally/politically charged word, people tend to use it as it suits them and utterly refuse to agree on an objective definition.

 

[russ_watters]

True American Patroism must be a very differnt beast from that of other countries. I believe that true American Patroism is defined in Therous essay "On Civil Disobediance" It is the true American Patriots to guard against govermental encroachment on our basic rights as stated in the Declaration of Independence and the constituion.

This may well be the case, which is why I'd like to hear some scholarly definitions from other countries. The idea that patriotism can come from disobedience (or even rebellion) is something that may well be uniquely American.

Nationalism is much simpler to define.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

No, I think it has more to do with that you identify the strongest with the social "group" you're interacting most with.

That is, your strongest bonds are typically to those of friends&family, then perhaps comes how you identify yourself with your work and your colleagues, then your city, then your country, then possibly, the rest of humanity..

Possibly..

 

[russ_watters]

Patriotism: love for or devotion to one's country
Nationalism: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
They are virtually identical when "one's country" is the same as "a nation." (See rest of post). [emphasis added]

Virtually identical, but there is a key difference, in bold. IMO, that's an understatement, but it does capture the idea: nationalism is exclusionary and dominerring, patriotism is not.

For example, German Nationalism in the 1930s held that since Germany was the best and needed "living room", inferior countries should give that space to Germany. American patriotism means exporting our system of government, but not so we can conquer, but so others can share in our prosperity.

At least implicitly, it does. If you love and are devoted to your country, then chances are, you feel that it is better than other countries.

Actually, you are making two logical leaps there, not just one: there is nothing exclusionary or in any way negative about thinking your country is better than others. In fact, if you didn't think you live in the best country, you really should move! Where the feeling of being better becomes dangerous is when you think because we are better, we deserve your land, resources, etc.. That's what the nationalistic wars in the first half of this century were about. But the feeling of being better, on its own, is not a bad thing at all and does not imply animosity.

Obviously, nationalism is more aggressive than patriotism. Patriotism is really a less extreme version of nationalism, and can develop into full-fledged nationalism in a veritable heartbeat.

I agree - they are separate (didn't you just contradict yourself..?), but related ideas. But the differences are important. They explain, for example, why the western world has not been invovled in territorial expansion since WWII.

 

[gurkhawarhorse]

uh! one thing the writer of ( hilight )kama-sutra ie. veda vyasa came to nepal with his 2 wives to meditate in kaligandaki river area and wrote the best book in the world!
well, nearly all of the hindu sages were born in India but, nearly all of them came to the mountains for penance and meditation. vyasa was one of them.

gurkha-war-horse

 

[Gokul43201]

IMO, patriotism is often useful in the sense that it focuses effort towards progress. However, in the sense that a person will likely stick up for his/her country in general, it is illogical.

 

[EL]

American patriotism means exporting our system of government, but not so we can conquer, but so others can share in our prosperity.

So, on assuming you're a patriot, why do you want to "export" the American system of government, and not the Swedish or Australian one?

Another question: Do you see the people of North Korea as patriots?

 

[motai]

veda vyasa came to nepal with his 2 wives to meditate in kaligandaki river area and wrote the best book in the world!

Meditate.. right

Seems more like experimentation to me .

 

[russ_watters]

So, on assuming you're a patriot, why do you want to "export" the American system of government, and not the Swedish or Australian one?

Since I feel the American one is the best, I feel it would benefit other countries more to adopt our system (or, perhaps, a hybrid) than others. Many countries of the Eastern Bloc needed just that type of advice in the 1990s, as they tried to form democratic governments from scratch. But it is actually as much about the ideals as it is the actual structure of the government. It gave me great pride when I visited Lithuania about 5 years ago and saw how the citizens identified with American values on government. We were with a NATO force from 8 countries (in the Navy) and the reception we got made it clear: 'you are the ones we wish to emulate.' That is what makes me most proud to be an American.

Another question: Do you see the people of North Korea as patriots?

I don't have a clue what the average North Korean thinks about his country/situation. I know that if I were in such a situation, I wouldn't have much of a national identity left to feel patriotism for: in a dictatorship, the dictator is the country. And I would despise Il as much as a North Korean as I do as an American.

 

[gurkhawarhorse]

Meditate.. right

Seems more like experimentation to me .

WELL,
it is indeed
BUT... but... but...

gurkha-war-horse

 

[EL]

Since I feel the American one is the best,

And why do you feel so, and why do you think you feel so?

I feel it would benefit other countries more to adopt our system (or, perhaps, a hybrid) than others.

How do you know there is no better systems? Do you think Sweden should adopt the American system?

It gave me great pride when I visited Lithuania about 5 years ago and saw how the citizens identified with American values on government.

I thought their government was more inspired by different Western European governments. What makes it more typically American?

I don't have a clue what the average North Korean thinks about his country/situation.

Since they are tought in school to follow their wonderful and great leader I'm pretty sure they are very patriotic.

I know that if I were in such a situation, I wouldn't have much of a national identity left to feel patriotism for: in a dictatorship, the dictator is the country. And I would despise Il as much as a North Korean as I do as an American.

Sure? I think that's quite naive to think you would.

 

[russ_watters]

And why do you feel so, and why do you think you feel so?

That really isn't relevant - what is relevant is that I do feel this way.

How do you know there is no better systems?

The next-best systems are the ones of European countries and they don't work as well in my opinion. Socialist countries, especially, have very high unemployment rates.

Do you think Sweden should adopt the American system?

Yes.

I thought their government was more inspired by different Western European governments. What makes it more typically American?

Its more the democratic ideals than the structure. Things like less government influence (less socialism).

Since they are tought in school to follow their wonderful and great leader I'm pretty sure they are very patriotic.

That doesn't follow unless you think North Koreans are sheep who believe in their leader despite the fact that they are starving.

Sure? I think that's quite naive to think you would.

I think its naive to think that a person will mindlessly follow a system under which 20% of the country has starved to death in the past 10 years. People aren't quite that stupid.

 

[arildno]

Its more the democratic ideals than the structure. Things like less government influence (less socialism).

Yet again the stupid right wing untruth.
If you hadn't noticed, russ watters, we ELECT our government, we do NOT elect the leaders of corporations with at least the same influence on our private lives as government officials.

 

[Yaaks]

Im Proud of being born in a democratic country...Im free to to whatever i want(positive things of course), no restrictions what so ever..
The Underlining fact is, everybody is and should be proud of their country, irrespective of their cultural backgrounds..

 

[PerennialII]

That doesn't follow unless you think North Koreans are sheep who believe in their leader despite the fact that they are starving. I think its naive to think that a person will mindlessly follow a system under which 20% of the country has starved to death in the past 10 years. People aren't quite that stupid.

Beg to differ, would suggest that the right circumstances and methods can be very effective in conditioning and submissing people to various "ideals". Don't we see that all the time everywhere rather than people displaying intelligence?

 

[EL]

Thanks for your answer. It confirmed my fears.

That really isn't relevant - what is relevant is that I do feel this way.

What? Havn't you ever thought about why you feel the way you feel? How can that be irrelevant?

The next-best systems are the ones of European countries and they don't work as well in my opinion. Socialist countries, especially, have very high unemployment rates.

So are you saying that Western European countries are socialistic? (Ok, this may be an issue if definition again.)

Yes.

So tell me, what do you know about Swedish politics?

Its more the democratic ideals than the structure. Things like less government influence (less socialism).

So are you still saying that the Lithuanian system is (or at least the people want it to be) more like the American than the Western Europeans. Is that just a feeling you have, or do you have any proofs for it?
(I could here also have disussed why less influence by an ELECTED government should be more democratic, but I leave that for Arildno)

That doesn't follow unless you think North Koreans are sheep who believe in their leader despite the fact that they are starving. I think its naive to think that a person will mindlessly follow a system under which 20% of the country has starved to death in the past 10 years. People aren't quite that stupid.

This has nothing to do with stupidity, as PerennialII pointed out. It has to do under what circumstances you are raised and live under. I'm pretty sure that if you (or I) were born in North Korea, there would be a very large risk you (I) would love the leader and the country.