Does current flow back to the power plant through the ground?

[greypilgrim]

Hi.

I fear I might not have understood some fundamental concepts about electric power transmission. So we have "neutral" which is brought to Earth potential. Does this mean the electrical circuit from the power plant over highly conductive aluminium cables to my home closes back to the power plant through ground? I'd assume (dry) soil should have huge electrical resistance, is this wrong?

I also read that the first transatlantic telegraph cable from 1858 was just a single electrical wire and the circuit was closed through ground across the ocean, which I find equally hard to believe.

Am I missing something here? Is Earth a much better conductor than I thought? Or doesn't there have to be a physical current if ground at my home is at the same potential as it is at the power plant?

 

[rootone]

'Earth' is by definition a grounded state for some parts of an electronic device.
The device works by shoving electrons around in an 'above ground' state.
The Earth as a whole is so massive compared to say some computer, that the conduction of electrons within the ground is of no significance.

 

[russ_watters]

I fear I might not have understood some fundamental concepts about electric power transmission. So we have "neutral" which is brought to Earth potential. Does this mean the electrical circuit from the power plant over highly conductive aluminium cables to my home closes back to the power plant through ground? I'd assume (dry) soil should have huge electrical resistance, is this wrong?

It's wrong, but not for the reason you think.

First of all, alternating current alternates. It means even the "hot" wire has electricity traveling in both directions.

Next, power plants use 3-phase power, which doesn't have a neutral, and the electricity oscillates in and out on the three wires.

And last, the actual Earth isn't (usually...) used as a return path, it is just used as a common reference for 0 voltage and an emergency dump if there is a problem. The actual return path is through the neutral...except insofar as the neutral and "ground" wire are connected.

But in terms of your house to the transformer supplying it, yes, the "neutral" and "ground" are connected and are the "return" path of the electricity.

 

[Dr.D]

Next, power plants use 3-phase power, which doesn't have a neutral, and the electricity oscillates in and out on the three wires.

I have worked on a number of fairly large standby gensets, and they were always 3 phase Y-connected with a grounded center point.

 

[greypilgrim]

The Earth as a whole is so massive compared to say some computer, that the conduction of electrons within the ground is of no significance.

What do you mean by "of no significance"? In the transatlantic telegraph cable, is there an electron flow through the ground from one continent to the other, or is it more like electrons get dumped into the ground at one end and drawn from the ground at the other with no real current equalizing this imbalance?

 

[davenn]

n the transatlantic telegraph cable, is there an electron flow through the ground from one continent to the other, or is it more like electrons get dumped into the ground at one end and drawn from the ground at the other with no real current equalizing this imbalance?

this is incorrect, you misunderstand the process

you are forgetting that in an AC ( mains power or any other AC circuit -- audio/RF) circuit the electrons don't really go anywhere, they just oscillate about a point in the cable. So there is NO loss of electrons at one end of the link and build up at the other end of the linkDave

 

[greypilgrim]

you are forgetting that in an AC ( mains power or any other AC circuit -- audio/RF) circuit the electrons don't really go anywhere, they just oscillate about a point in the cable. So there is NO loss of electrons at one end of the link and build up at the other end of the link

True. But could I (theoretically) find a path in the ground between the continents along which the electrons oscillate in phase with the cable, so the circuit is closed like a usual AC circuit?

Also, with no capacitance or inductance present, the AC resistance in a circuit is the same as DC resistance. And I can still only imagine that the resistance of the ground between two continents must be enormous.

 

[davenn]

Also, with no capacitance or inductance present, the AC resistance in a circuit is the same as DC resistance. And I can still only imagine that the resistance of the ground between two continents must be enormous.

have a read of this article for practical SWER power transmission

http://stonepower.se/Images/SWER.pdf

 

[stefan r]

I see lightning frequently. I am fairly confident charged particles are moving about. The charges will balance eventually. Lightning shoots both ways. Electrical forces are much stronger than gravity. I can recall several instances when I tried to throw away a thin sheet. Instead of dropping into the waste bin it flew sideways and stuck to a stack of plastic totes. A large charge build up could pull (or repel) clouds and/or exchange ions with space.

Ground wires in a house usually connect to the plumbing which connects to the water table. The water table is also a conductive path to the sub-station near you. I am not sure about areas outside of USA. Running the ground wire into dry dirt would not be up to code here.

AC electricity is more like waves in a pond and not like water delivered your faucet. The electrons in the wire are moving back and forth. Direct currents can move up or down a wire that is also carrying AC current.

 

[Svein]

Ground wires in a house usually connect to the plumbing which connects to the water table.

It used to be that way. But modern plumbing uses plastic, not copper...

 

[CWatters]

Current flow in a balanced three phase circuit...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3-phase_flow.gif

 

[CWatters]

Can't tell if that bit is working on my tablet but it comes from here...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power

 

[vela]

I'd assume (dry) soil should have huge electrical resistance, is this wrong?

Soil may have a high resistivity, but resistance depends also on the length and cross-sectional area. Earth is so big, the effective cross-sectional area is so large, the resulting resistance is low. Another way of thinking about it is you effectively have a bunch of high resistances in parallel, which results in a low resistance.

 

[lychette]

It's wrong, but not for the reason you think.

First of all, alternating current alternates. It means even the "hot" wire has electricity traveling in both directions.

Next, power plants use 3-phase power, which doesn't have a neutral, and the electricity oscillates in and out on the three wires.

And last, the actual Earth isn't (usually...) used as a return path, it is just used as a common reference for 0 voltage and an emergency dump if there is a problem. The actual return path is through the neutral...except insofar as the neutral and "ground" wire are connected.

But in terms of your house to the transformer supplying it, yes, the "neutral" and "ground" are connected and are the "return" path of the electricity.

I would like you to clear up this statement "But in terms of your house to the transformer supplying it, yes, the "neutral" and "ground" are connected and are the "return" path of the electricity."
As far as I know the return path is not through the earth.
If any current flows through the Earth this is detected as a fault and safety circuits cut off the supply.
Do you mean that the Earth (ground) and neutral are connected at the transformer/ supply station??

 

[rcgldr]

To follow up on Dr. D's post:

I have worked on a number of fairly large standby gensets, and they were always 3 phase Y-connected with a grounded center point.

This "centers" the 3 phase voltage about ground.

In my area of the USA, the final step down transformer (6900 volts down to 220 volts) has one input terminal connected to a stepped down voltage (via other step down transformers) from one of the three phase sources and the other input terminal connected to Earth ground. The output side of the transformer outputs 220 volts center tapped to Earth ground. This results in both "halves" of the 110 volt supply using one output terminal and ground, or 220 volts using both outputs. At the house, the circuit breaker box has an Earth ground used for the "neutral" on either 110 volt supply, and an additional grounded wire used for the third connector for the in house wall sockets. There should be no current flow in that third socket ground wire, while the "neutral" in my home shows about 2 to 5 volts AC depending on usage.

 

[cabraham]

Soil may have a high resistivity, but resistance depends also on the length and cross-sectional area. Earth is so big, the effective cross-sectional area is so large, the resulting resistance is low. Another way of thinking about it is you effectively have a bunch of high resistances in parallel, which results in a low resistance.

Not necessarily. Dry sandy soil has high resistance. The many parallel paths lower resistance, but still overall very high compared to aluminum cables.

Claude

 

[David Neves]

A current can exist without a closed circuit. You cited the example of a transatlantic telegraph cable. Let me cite a different example. High energy cosmic rays originate from distant galaxies. They are a stream of protons, which are charged particles, and thus form an electric current. When the protons reach Earth, they do not turn around and fly the entire distance back to the very same distant galaxy they came from.

 

[davenn]

They are a stream of protons, which are charged particles, and thus form an electric current.

that's a real stretch of the truth, considering the low numbers of them arriving to the Earth's upper atmosphere

When the protons reach Earth, they do not turn around and fly the entire distance back to the very same distant galaxy they came from.

it's a totally different ball gameon a side note
@cabraham and @David Neves

you are responding to a thread that is a year oldDave

 

[Sean Craig]

First off, for residential the nominal voltage is 240v-phase to phase 120v-phase to neutral. voltage on the pole before your transformer is 7,200v that's a 30-1 turns ratio. Nominal can be +-5%. I have no idea where people come up with 110-220. Light bulbs are rated up to 130v and appliances are rated down to 110v.
Ok about the topic on hand.
AC & DC Electricity always wants to return to the source, not ground. AC- The source is either the transformer or the generator.
Ligtning is different, it always equals out the difference of potential, it usually goes to ground.
At the transformer and at your service at the house, "the meter or disconnect or panel" the neutral and ground are connected, neutral travels to the house and the ground goes straight down and connects to a ground rod at both locations. This is called a grounded system.

Soo for an ungrounded system, "If you lose your neutral" going to the transformer, all your 120v loads will all be connected in series, the voltage will vary based on their resistance 0-240v. Basically everything that is supposed to be 120v will start blowing up.

With a grounded system, the dirt between those two ground rods will now become the path of least resistance, but the resistance is usually high through dirt. Nec says you need 25 ohms or less but that never happens. This will prevent a house fire while you were away and a neutral came loose.
A grounded system is also good for providing lightning with a path to- it's home, and I'm guessing it's probably good for other unwanted voltages in the system.

Conductor conductivity, relative to copper = silver=106, copper=100, gold=72, aluminum=62
Aluminum sucks it's just cheap. and a fire hazard for it's expansion and contraction characteristics, it always comes loose.

 

[Nugatory]

First off, for residential the nominal voltage is 240v-phase to phase 120v-phase to neutral.

Careful... that's not true in many parts of the world, and this forum is international.

 

[Sean Craig]

My previous post refers to the united states, other parts of the world may be different.