Does God Exist? Evidence & Arguments For & Against

[FZ+]

Originally posted by Royce
That, of course, I don't know. I, like all of us, speculate.


God could have send an angle servent that selected a warm nutrient rich pool and deposited the original DNA in it to grow, reproduce and diversify endlessly to become all of life on Earth including of course us.

The next question would obviously be... Where did the original DNA come from? And research I see suggests that it is unlikely that life was initially just DNA. There probably was an initial RNA stage, as RNA was better equipped to grow in the early Earth conditions.

And doesn't this strike you as a little inefficient? It is more plausible that God simply accelerated time, or just waited until life arose on it's own. What's the hurry for an immortal?

 

[Dave]

These days there's no particular reason for God to exist, apart from, to create wars...

I don't know God doesn't exist, but I doubt he does.


There are so many variations on the truth about God that I woudln't know which one was right.

 

[Dx]

You got my vote GOD!

I say, Yeah!

 

[Dave]

I'd hate to think anyone believed in God just because Einstien said he did...

 

[PhysicsRocks88]

Of course God, of any type, doesn't exist.

It still sickens me that in 2003 people still believe in mythology and superstition.

Grow up, use your brain properly. Religious people have probably never actual had a single thought process whatsoever - burn them alive!

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Of course God, of any type, doesn't exist.

It still sickens me that in 2003 people still believe in mythology and superstition.

Grow up, use your brain properly. Religious people have probably never actual had a single thought process whatsoever - burn them alive!

How can you say God doesn't exist: For sure...

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Of course God, of any type, doesn't exist.

It still sickens me that in 2003 people still believe in mythology and superstition.

Grow up, use your brain properly. Religious people have probably never actual had a single thought process whatsoever - burn them alive!

buddy, I'm tempted to report this, even if you are joking. I'm not religious myself, but this is going to get you kicked out pretty fast. this isn't the only thread in which I've seen you talk like this. I'm just warning you...

 

[PhysicsRocks88]

Originally posted by maximus
buddy, I'm tempted to report this, even if you are joking. I'm not religious myself, but this is going to get you kicked out pretty fast. this isn't the only thread in which I've seen you talk like this. I'm just warning you...

First off I'm not your buddy. Secondly, shut up and mind your own business. Thirdly, I already reported it myself to save you the trouble - quit your whining newbie.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Of course God, of any type, doesn't exist.

It still sickens me that in 2003 people still believe in mythology and superstition.

Grow up, use your brain properly. Religious people have probably never actual had a single thought process whatsoever - burn them alive!

Hmmm... Reminds me why I almost never post in this forum...
If I did I'd risk occassionaly expressing myself in the above manner which would be highly unfotunate for everybody's nervous systems including mine.

Anyway, PR88, you should see the full half of the glass -
in our over-populated and highly competative world it's
good to have a head-start on some people.

Peace and long life.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by FZ+
The next question would obviously be... Where did the original DNA come from? And research I see suggests that it is unlikely that life was initially just DNA. There probably was an initial RNA stage, as RNA was better equipped to grow in the early Earth conditions.

And doesn't this strike you as a little inefficient? It is more plausible that God simply accelerated time, or just waited until life arose on it's own. What's the hurry for an immortal?

All of what you say is possible of course. My feeling is that there may indeed have been RNA which I would think means some form of self replicating "life". However If God wanted to control the kindof life here on this planet and give preprogramed direction, then the DNA would have been created possibly even in a Lab by his minions and brought here. This really beyound speculation going into pure imagination.
If he is immortal why would he bother speeding up time but simply wait until conditions were right?

Anouther question just popped into my mind. Has there ever been any kind of determination of when cells began haveing mitachondria in them time wise? I haven't heard of any and wonder if someone else has.

 

[PhysicsRocks88]

Originally posted by Royce
All of what you say is possible of course. My feeling is that there may indeed have been RNA which I would think means some form of self replicating "life". However If God wanted to control the kindof life here on this planet and give preprogramed direction, then the DNA would have been created possibly even in a Lab by his minions and brought here. This really beyound speculation going into pure imagination.
If he is immortal why would he bother speeding up time but simply wait until conditions were right?

Anouther question just popped into my mind. Has there ever been any kind of determination of when cells began haveing mitachondria in them time wise? I haven't heard of any and wonder if someone else has.

On mitochondria...

...bacteria were at one point just mitochondria.

Other than bacteria - all life that has a mitochondria in it, has the mitochondria identical to a bacteria. For example, human mitochondria IS ACTUALLY bacteria mitochondria. That is why it is RNA, and so is bacteria.

SO the answer is life was initially a mitochondria itself, and then further life in fact contained the mitochondria of that life in it.

 

[Royce]

I'd hears that it was thought that it might have originally been a symbiotic relationship or parasitic that developed into one. Maybe a single celled animal ate a mitachondria but couldn't digest it. Any way this is way of the subject. thanks and sorry.

 

[quantumcarl]

does god exist?

If you say so.

What you believe is true... for you.

Next question.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by quantumcarl
If you say so.

What you believe is true... for you.

this is true in a personal growth sense, but as I've said before there can only be one truth in the universe. the universe does not change for every person's belief. god cannot exist and not exist at the same time. this is a basic logical contradiction. one answer must be right.

 

[FZ+]

I'd hate to think anyone believed in God just because Einstien said he did...

It's worth noting that this is a common misconception. Einstein's god was not the conventional guy with beard, but the god of Spinoza. In short, his god was simply the personification of his belief in the beauty and order at the heart of the universe. Einstein left organised religion. Hence the context of his assertion that "god does not play dice". He means that he cannot belief that a beautiful and ordered universe would have a random and inexplicable basis.

 

[Dave]

OK, I thought that, because of his belief in God he tryed to hard to prove the UPs wrong...

 

[The Grimmus]

personaly i think god was, yes as siad before, used to control and set morals and laws for people and yes give people reason, explantion and hope. But now all that separates those who believe and don't beilve is the hope and explantion parts (the government aka american jesus has taken over morals and control and reason quite nicely) Those who don't need hope don't need religion if your ok about not really haveing a will or a "soul" that after you die you kind of don't exist. But, i don't think that people who don't beilve should be going around telling eveyrone god dosent exist (unless it is here where everyone is entiteled to their opinions) becuase that will disalusion them and make their meaningless existence apperant and that ofcourse would be bad for the american jesus becuase it will make their workers unhappy.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
It's worth noting that this is a common misconception. Einstein's god was not the conventional guy with beard, but the god of Spinoza. In short, his god was simply the personification of his belief in the beauty and order at the heart of the universe. Einstein left organised religion. Hence the context of his assertion that "god does not play dice". He means that he cannot belief that a beautiful and ordered universe would have a random and inexplicable basis.

And yet this is the same belief a lot of people hold (myself included), which speaks more of God "in essence" (spiritually), as opposed to customs and rituals which are practiced by religion.

This is very well put FZ+!

 

[MasterBlaster]

That original post Alex, is effing sickening. I know to you as to me, I wonder why it is I have to live in a time period where I am so much more advanced in logic and reason than this scum.

 

[FZ+]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
That original post Alex, is effing sickening. I know to you as to me, I wonder why it is I have to live in a time period where I am so much more advanced in logic and reason than this scum.

Erm... I don't think we need quite that great an ego, hmm? Always to ready to accept being wrong, regardless of probabilities. When talking about God, it helps not to elevate oneself to a position of omniscient entity as well... Watch out, you might disprove yourself...

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by FZ+
Erm... I don't think we need quite that great an ego, hmm? Always to ready to accept being wrong, regardless of probabilities. When talking about God, it helps not to elevate oneself to a position of omniscient entity as well... Watch out, you might disprove yourself...

I have no more ego than I have worked for by being rational and logical.

I'm not omniscient - I have plenty of very worth colleages. However some people are certainly of a greater ability than others. There is scum in the world, it's the hate-filled maniacs who try to enslave others into their world.

 

[Iacchus32]

I wonder whatever happened to Logical Atheist? Hmm ...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
I wonder whatever happened to Logical Atheist? Hmm ...

Wonder no more!

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by quantumcarl
If you say so.

What you believe is true... for you.

Next question.

NO. What is true is true - weather you effin' like it or not.

Deal with it. There is NO such thing as a God.

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
NO. What is true is true - weather you effin' like it or not.

Deal with it. There is NO such thing as a God.

When dealing with the issue of existence, it is perhaps trivial to ask as to what existence category a certain 'thing' or 'concept' belongs.

When one is asked wether or not a duck that can talk exists, the answer given by most people will be no.

But when it is asked wether or not one is familiar with the comic figure Donals Duck (who, as we know, is a duck that can talk), then most people will answer yes.

So, does a duck that can talk exist?

Conclusion:

It is important to know what we define as our existence category, in order to answer the question. If that is not given implicitly, we need to ask and define for it explicitly.

So, does God exist?

No, since there does not exist a 'creator' of the universe. God has no real physical existence.

Yes, since God is defined as such in books as the Bible, and therefore does exist.

Like in the previous example, there is no real contradiction. Even though a duck that really can talk is not something we can conceive of, we have no problem in accepting the existence of Donald Duck.

In the same way, for the real world, which exists objectively, apart from and outside of our mind, we can not conceive of that it was 'created' by a mere concept of the mind itself. Despite that, some pepople nevertheless seem to have no problem to believe in such deities, to fullfill there 'spiritual needs'.

 

[TENYEARS]

If two damm fools agree on a topic what do we have? And three four five. And so the fish continue to swim in the tank. Their unconciousness spewing garbage upon the planet as long as their video games, CD players, etc... are functional. They have no clue about god, the universe or what it is made of and yet we have these wonderful senseless conversations. None of you have found the truth because it is to scary to go there.

It would be better if every conversation was focused upon the wheather because on issues like these you do not comprehend. The truth is not a polling place children and adults alike where we can say oh yea I believe or I don't. Either you understand what the universe is made of or you don't. If you do, we would not be having this conversation. It is better to believe nothing and walk in a vacuum than to settle for an answer. What you are doing is just like playing russian rollete and the gun is fully loaded with mountains of loaded clips.

Please continue.

 

[FZ+]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
these wonderful senseless conversations.

Such irony...

 

[megashawn]

Tenyears:

They have no clue about god, the universe or what it is made of and yet we have these wonderful senseless conversations. None of you have found the truth because it is to scary to go there.

Lemme tell you something. I've seen your POV, I was raised with your religous beliefs, I know your truth.

You do nothing but sit around and make blind speculations, based on blind faith and come up with rediculous conclusions. Things such as there is no afterlife being supported by christian beliefs and the bible. I assure you, if this was preached at a church, people would not be christian.

You've got no more evidence on whether or not a god exists then anyone else on this forum. The difference is, I'm willing to accept that I may never know if there is some all powerfull being or not, and try to live a good, decent life.

If there are any more requirments on me then that, I cannot comply. If I'm to spend minutes or hours praying nightly and dedicate my sundays to some being that can't even take the time to say "Hey, hows it going?", and this method you and/or others propose is infact the true path, then I can't wait to meet satan and start plotting the holy war on heaven.

But if all you care to do is come here and tell us we are all wrong and are going to burn in hell ("playing russian roulette", I speak in metaphors as well) then why do you bother? I think that no idea can reach its fullest state without arguement, or as I told my mechanic buddy when I was playing devils advocate and arguing with him on something I agree, "No cylinder can be honed, without resistance."

In fact, it is people such as yourself who drive me further from religion. Your bullish attitude and your "My way or the highway to hell" approach is rediculous to say the least. Then the way you manipulate beliefs, apparently to suit your own personal agenda.

But again, unless you've got some kind of solid evidence to support your claim, you should not speak from a position like you are already correct. Frankly, you don't know (neither do I). Honestly, claiming you do only reveals how deep the ignorance flows.

And to the whole lil Russian roulette line of reasoning, it does make sense. I've seen it worded like:

If god exists, and you don't believe in him, you suffer eternally

If God doesn't exist, and you did believe in him, you've nothing to lose.

And people really cling to this as there last line of hope in a world that is more and more losing there religous restrictions.

Now, here is one to shoot your russian roulette thing up out the water, and smash it in a few pieces.

If god doesn't exist, and I did believe in him, worshipping, and die believing I'm going to heaven, only to never have another cognitive thought, then a great atrocity has been committed as I and countless others have been duped into living a restricted life in hopes of having a awesome afterlife.

In fact, that is what God is all about nowadays. People don't want to die. People are afraid to die, with good reason with all the horror stories about it.

In deed, you do not know if your particular flavor of religion is the correct path as well. There are many religions, and many versions of the same religion. Are you absolutly certain your beliefs are correct and will earn you a seat in heaven? Or is there a little nagging doubt that maybe you should go mormon or protestant, maybe southern babtist? I know your answer, but I also know the truth.

 

[Iacchus32]

The Heathen in Heaven

Excerpt from http://www.swedenborg.com/ work, Heaven and Hell ...

There is a general opinion that those born outside of the church, who are caled the nations, or heathen, cannot be saved, because not having the Word they know nothing about the Lord, and apart from the Lord there is no salvation. But that these are also saved this alone makes certain, that the mercy of the Lord is universal, that is, extends to every individual; that these equally with those within the church, who are few in comparison, are born men, and that their ignorance of the Lord is not their fault. Any one who thinks from any enlightened reason can see that no man is born for hell, for the Lord is love itself and His love is to will the salvation of all. Therefore He has provided a religion for every one, and by it acknowledment of the Divine and interior life; for to live in accordance with one's religion is to live interiorly, since one then looks to the Divine, and so far as he looks to the Divine he does not look to the world but separates himself from the world, that is, from the life of the world, which is exterior life.

 

[TENYEARS]

I am not recuiting believers or condeming anyone and never have. There is not eternal hell and there is not eternal heavean. Truth does exist and it is 100% in accordance with science. I find truth in many religions, christian, hindu, Zen budist, tao, american indian, south american, voodoo, science, atheism, etc... There are only misunderstanings in all of the interpetations of these religions. This I know. Megashawn, in 1987 I witnessed god, I became enlightened and understood the meaning of life, satori, shamdi whatever you would like to call it.

If a person is a pure atheist in my opinion this is good. In my opinion what this should mean is they do not "belive in god" this is ok as long as they do not say god does not exist because this would not be logical. It would be like saying I have never seen whatever but that does not mean that whatever does not exist. So I can say I do not believe it exists because my experience to this point and time has not come across it. I cannot deny it's existence but I can say I do not believe it exists. There is a difference than saying god does not exist. You are just being honest.

A person like this would be no different than one who goes to church and belives but does not understand. There is the possibility that the atheist is actually closer to a real experience of truth than the one who socalled goes to church. Nothing is in stone. (Try the parable about the vineyard owner who is hiring workers).

The problem my friend is that we create paths of action in life. The path humanity is taking is destroying the planet in the name of materialism because they want to defer responsibility to the next generation. If they knew the truth of an after life, would they continue to do what they do? I must try.

I have seen oceans of sludge with lifeless ocean.

I was once told something by someone who was told by someone. I said I don't believe in that crap and I am the master of my destiny. There came a day that event happened and I was about to incur the event which was spoken and in a split second realization of memory turned the event into a non event. Sometime life is a razors edge. Good movie you should probably see it the Bill Murray version.

Megashawn, do me a favor. A little experiment if you would. Blank your mind and then say you were a witness to god. You knew god was real and that a human being had incredible potential and that the afterlife was real. You also had visions or whatever.

What would you do with this? You don't have to believe here just place yourself in these shoes. What would you do? Hell any of you what would you do?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
I am not recuiting believers or condeming anyone and never have. There is not eternal hell and there is not eternal heavean. Truth does exist and it is 100% in accordance with science. I find truth in many religions, christian, hindu, Zen budist, tao, american indian, south american, voodoo, science, atheism, etc... There are only misunderstanings in all of the interpetations of these religions. This I know. Megashawn, in 1987 I witnessed god, I became enlightened and understood the meaning of life, satori, shamdi whatever you would like to call it.

What's the point of religion, besides teaching us morals, if not to prepare us for an afterlife? Are you saying you don't believe an afterlife exists? Why would God even "tease us" with such an idea?

 

[TENYEARS]

The afterlife exists, but heaven and hell are not eternal. They will always exist but the relative experience of them will not as the relative mind becomes less relative(process of what the hindus call reincarnation). Would you believe that there is perfect physics behind this.

 

[Iacchus32]

Physics is one thing and metaphysics is another, at least in the sense that metaphysics is the cause of which physics is the effect. So I think we need to go beneath the surface a little in order to answer to your question.

 

[megashawn]

Truth does exist and it is 100% in accordance with science. I find truth in many religions, christian, hindu, Zen budist, tao, american indian, south american, voodoo, science, atheism, etc... There are only misunderstanings in all of the interpetations of these religions.

Get something right about me. I do not say "God does not exist." I say that God in this christian idea of him CANNOT exist. I've often agreed that there is good things to learn from all religions. It is the foundation that has helped humanity advance so far.

A favorite quote of mine, not sure of the writer is "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". Religous texts, while they may or may not be historically accurate, do reflect humanity at that point in time. There are good things to learn even from the most atrocicous and graphic stories. Regardless of the truthfullness, one can learn a valueble lesson from almost any religous belief. Hence, the purpose of the religion.

If a person is a pure atheist in my opinion this is good. In my opinion what this should mean is they do not "belive in god" this is ok as long as they do not say god does not exist because this would not be logical.

As I said above, I'm not so bold as to say God does not exist. My typical answer is "I don't know if god does or does not exist, none can prove it." This is, IMO, the most honest answer one can give regarding said matters.

Of course, if a person has had some personal expieriance that has swayed them to one belief or another, then they develop a bias. Even if this personal expieriance has left the person empty handed only with a "Big one that got away" story.

I know there is more to life then what we are aware of. I often think of reincarnation as being the most viable afterlife solution. And reincarnation is an afterlife, its just a never ending cycle of life and death, and rebirth. Do you also believe in Karma? If so, does this not make christian "sinning" irrellavent?

Reincarnation, as hindus described it, is an automated type system. It does not require a god type figure to ensure the operation of it. Karma is used as the reward/punishment system. A good person reincarnates into a higher life, while the evil person reincarnates into a lesser lifeform. Reincarnation also agrees more with reality, and the stress in that religion is your present life, not some eternal dream state where all is happy.

A person like this would be no different than one who goes to church and belives but does not understand. There is the possibility that the atheist is actually closer to a real experience of truth than the one who socalled goes to church. Nothing is in stone. (Try the parable about the vineyard owner who is hiring workers).

This I have to disagree on. A person who acknowledges the fact that we, as a whole, have no idea if there is or is not a god, and cannot prove it is in no ways comparable to a person who goes to church, believes in that churches version of god, and uses that churches religous texts as there scientific understanding of the world around them.

A person who goes to church will likely believe in creation over evolution. This person will likely believe there was a great flood that covered the earth, although lacking any true evidence of how this feat was pulled off. This person is also likely to believe a man, just like you and me, was sentanced to death, killed, and come back to life.

You see, a person, atheist, such as you described, or by my response to the "Is there a god" question, is not nearly the same. The person who goes to church already has the answer to all his/her questions, and anything that contradicts those answers is considered wrong and evil, simply because it doesn't agree with what they learned in church.

The problem my friend is that we create paths of action in life. The path humanity is taking is destroying the planet in the name of materialism because they want to defer responsibility to the next generation. If they knew the truth of an after life, would they continue to do what they do? I must try.

This is garbage. I agree that humanity is destroying the earth. In the name of materialism? If anything, I'd think the Earth would be the absolute most precious possesion to a materialist. No, I'd be more inclined to believe that the destruction of this Earth is at the hands of people who believe God will be back at anytime now, and do not see any purpose in striving to protect our planet.

In fact, the bible tells us that we have dominion over the planet, essentially saying it is ours to do with as we please.

In reality, we are the planets possesion, atleast, this much we can both agree to be true, I'd hope.

I was once told something by someone who was told by someone. I said I don't believe in that crap and I am the master of my destiny. There came a day that event happened and I was about to incur the event which was spoken and in a split second realization of memory turned the event into a non event. Sometime life is a razors edge. Good movie you should probably see it the Bill Murray version

Huh?

Megashawn, do me a favor. A little experiment if you would. Blank your mind and then say you were a witness to god. You knew god was real and that a human being had incredible potential and that the afterlife was real. You also had visions or whatever.

Hmm. I can blank my mind. I can not force myself into having some contact, make believe or not, with a supreme being. I should not have to. Such an all powerfull being should be able to snap his fingers and make us all understand his plan for us.

I personally believe all human beings have unlimited potential. That is, unlimited within our bounds of course. But with our newest friend, technology, we are forever more changning the boundries.

I really wish you'd quit contradicting yourself. First you tell me there is no hell, no heaven. Then you say you believe in reincarnation. Now your telling me to convince myself that the afterlife is real. What gives Cletus?

And if this is much the same way you had your meeting with god, then I would say this is merely your innerself, sub-concious, whatever, that has told you exactly what you wanted to hear.

Do please remember that I'm not a stranger to religion. I grew up believe in god, jesus, holy ghost, etc. I've ventured out and tried a few other belief systems. One thing is always true between any religion. If you sit around and wait on your god to get things done for you, you'll sit there till you die.

Well, I think this may very well be my largest post ever.

 

[megashawn]

Physics is one thing and metaphysics is another, at least in the sense that metaphysics is the cause of which physics is the effect. So I think we need to go beneath the surface a little in order to answer to your question.

I agree with the bolded section, but from there on I've got issues.

Yes, physics and metaphysics is 2 different things.

Physics is proven, substantiated, and operates on the principles described in a physics book.

Metaphysics is much more complex, as any piece of fiction is. There is no proof for metaphysical claims (got some?) and no basis in the real world.

And if there was, then why hasnt The amazing Randy hand over the million bucks?