Does the US administration owe an apology to the French ?

[BobG]

I am still trying to figure out what you are driving at.

Do you mean the colonists?
The natives?
The continent?

Could you be more specific?

The people that became the US have been here longer than 200 years, even if they were individual colonies of Great Britain. There wasn't some great cultural divide between being an independent country and being colonies of Great Britain. Becoming an independent country was just a natural step along the way.

(Of course, this would tend to emphasize SOS's point, since for most people, American history didn't start until July 4, 1776.)

 

[Lisa!]

Ah ! I see. So some other countries should start bullying around, removing some of the work the US administration has to do, so that finally they'd find some time to appologize

I don't think we could find any country like that. All countries prefer to develope their own country instead of preventing other countries from developing.

 

[Townsend]

I am still trying to figure out what you are driving at.

Do you mean the colonists?
The natives?
The continent?

Could you be more specific?

What I am getting at is that SOS2008 seems to think America is only a bit older than 200 years old...that is fine if she is talking about the government of the United States of America but America is a land mass and is much older. Now if she is in fact talking about the US government and saying that we need to realize that we are very young in comparison to other countries then I would invite her to point to any single form of government that currently exist that is older than the government of the US.

In other words not matter how you slice it, her statement

Here's my theory...Since the U.S. is only a little more than 200 years old, Americans have really short memories.

doesn't make any sense. I could understand her theory if what she meant is that since the US is so old, older than any other government today, than we might have forgotten but that is practically the opposite of what she is said.

It really is no big deal, just a nit. But since so many people seem to be unable to understand a simple and clear question it has turned into this ugly thing. Very sad...

 

[Skyhunter]

What I am getting at is that SOS2008 seems to think America is only a bit older than 200 years old...that is fine if she is talking about the government of the United States of America but America is a land mass and is much older. Now if she is in fact talking about the US government and saying that we need to realize that we are very young in comparison to other countries then I would invite her to point to any single form of government that currently exist that is older than the government of the US.

In other words not matter how you slice it, her statement

Here's my theory...Since the U.S. is only a little more than 200 years old, Americans have really short memories.

doesn't make any sense. I could understand her theory if what she meant is that since the US is so old, older than any other government today, than we might have forgotten but that is practically the opposite of what she is said.

It really is no big deal, just a nit. But since so many people seem to be unable to understand a simple and clear question it has turned into this ugly thing. Very sad...

She didn't say America, she said "the U.S.", and the United States has existed for 229 years. I don't see what is so confusing about that.

If you disagree with her theory, that because we are a young nation we have short memories, then say so. Don't resort to hyperbole, it doesn't help the dialogue. And in this case created even more confusion.

You are the one who turned it ugly, so don't try and put it off on the rest of us.

 

[Townsend]

She didn't say America, she said "the U.S.", and the United States has existed for 229 years. I don't see what is so confusing about that.

Nothing...what makes you think I am confused?

If you disagree with her theory, that because we are a young nation we have short memories, then say so.

I was trying but for some reason a direct simple question is too complicated.

Don't resort to hyperbole, it doesn't help the dialogue. And in this case created even more confusion.

All I asked is what was here before that. Where is the hyperbole?

You are the one who turned it ugly, so don't try and put it off on the rest of us.

Right, and the fact that people started assuming that I was talking about the Statue of Liberty had nothing to with it...


What the heck does this have to do with you anyways? Or anyone else...I was asking her a very simple question, nothing more. If you and anyone else would let her answer the question and let me respond to it then things would kept be clean and tidy.

 

[vanesch]

What I am getting at is that SOS2008 seems to think America is only a bit older than 200 years old...that is fine if she is talking about the government of the United States of America but America is a land mass and is much older.

I think that what she was pointing out is that there has been a strong link between France and the US at its origin ; that the French even helped to create the US. Given the fact that this happened less than 200 years ago, if it is completely forgotten, then that's because its inhabitants have short (historical) memories.

 

[Townsend]

I think that what she was pointing out is that there has been a strong link between France and the US at its origin ; that the French even helped to create the US. Given the fact that this happened less than 200 years ago, if it is completely forgotten, then that's because its inhabitants have short (historical) memories.

I know...and to end that I would completely agree and I would have said nothing at all...

It was no big deal really, like I said it was just a nit...

 

[The Smoking Man]

I know...and to end that I would completely agree and I would have said nothing at all...

It was no big deal really, like I said it was just a nit...

Very good ... Given the statement above, I guess the reaction to:

Ummm ... Same reason you have a state named after King Louis of France (Louisiana) and dey speak patoise dere, Eh?

The French helped the USA win their independence and, thanks to people like Ben Frankilin, forged an incredible friendship through advanced conceptual thinking.

to wit

Your missing some of the important parts...that is why getting a lesson from the likes of you would be no more than a joke...

due to it's lack of detail and 'important parts' would reduce you to the level of the 'nit'?

If you do agree with the concept, then perhaps you are right, you should have said nothing at all ... again ... see ad hominem.

 

[SOS2008]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanesch
I think that what she was pointing out is that there has been a strong link between France and the US at its origin ; that the French even helped to create the US. Given the fact that this happened less than 200 years ago, if it is completely forgotten, then that's because its inhabitants have short (historical) memories.

I know...and to end that I would completely agree and I would have said nothing at all...

It was no big deal really, like I said it was just a nit...

Several members have addressed the matter nicely, but yes, vanesch's summary is what I was saying. To me it is ironic, thus my attempt at a bit of humor.

If you look at other countries, for example China, these cultures have existed for thousands of years. Perhaps this is why the Chinese have long-term thinking, and as a result they are not embroiled in unnecessary wars of attrition in an attempt to police the world, and instead are our debtors.

In the meantime, Americans should stop casting stones unless they too are without sin, and in the case of France and long-time allies, realize the importance of preserving these relationships, and that loyalties are earned and reciprocal.

 

[Townsend]

Very good ... Given the statement above, I guess the reaction to:to witdue to it's lack of detail and 'important parts' would reduce you to the level of the 'nit'?

Are you speaking in chinese? What you just said make no sense at all...

If you do agree with the concept, then perhaps you are right, you should have said nothing at all ... again ... see ad hominem.

It was a nit (meaning I just wanted to point out to HER, that the US is not a young country but in fact the oldest country in the world).

In other words it was just something I felt was important to point out...there was not an single argument made by me so please do tell me how a logical fallacy would apply here? You seem to lack some basic language skills dude...

 

[Townsend]

Several members have addressed the matter nicely, but yes, vanesch's summary is what I was saying. To me it is ironic, thus my attempt at a bit of humor.

I know what you meant and I do agree but the way you said made it sound like your implying that the US in a young country which is in fact not true.

If you look at other countries, for example China, these cultures have existed for thousands of years. Perhaps this is why the Chinese have long-term thinking, and as a result they are not embroiled in unnecessary wars of attrition in an attempt to police the world, and instead are our debtors.

I guess I missed the part where you were talking about the US culture...The US culture is as old as the cultures it is composed of. There really isn't a US culture that I have noticed...I came to that conclusion after traveling the world twice over and visiting for at least a week and often much more often every state west of the Mississippi and many on the east coast as well. The US is melting pot of cultures...all of them.

In the meantime, Americans should stop casting stones unless they too are without sin,

Well put...

and in the case of France and long-time allies, realize the importance of preserving these relationships, and that loyalties are earned and reciprocal.

Americas issues with France started a long time ago and this war was just another excuse for America to lash out at one it's oldest allies/enemies...

I don't agree with it but it is hardly just about this war...but that has nothing to do with what I was saying...

Stop trying to draw me into these retarded debates...I just want to make short simple comments that don't have two sides...

I swear you people will do anything to suck me into your little arguments...

And I think SOS2008 should at least be acknowledging she was making some very wrong assumptions about what I was saying...

 

[Smurf]

It was a nit (meaning I just wanted to point out to HER, that the US is not a young country but in fact the oldest country in the world).

How do you justify that?

 

[Townsend]

How do you justify that?

What currently existing government is older than the US government? To my understanding there is none...so unless I am incorrect (which I could be and would appreciate being properly informed if that is in fact the case) then in so far as a country is its government the United States of America is the oldest country in the world.

Of course we are young if you are to consider a country the same country even though they may have drastically different governments. To me once a government is abolished that country is dead and from whatever government forms at that point, it becomes a new nation. France may have the same name as it did 200 years ago but it is not the same country where as the US has had the same government since westners populated this land.

 

[SOS2008]

And I think SOS2008 should at least be acknowledging she was making some very wrong assumptions about what I was saying...

To be candid, I think you are trying to make a case that is erroneous. You are welcome to your opinion, but most people consider countries to be a country/nation regardless of changes of governmental systems that may occur though it's history. If you believe the U.S. is an older country than China, or Iran, for example, please make your case with evidence from reliable sources.

 

[pi-r8]

If you look at other countries, for example China, these cultures have existed for thousands of years. Perhaps this is why the Chinese have long-term thinking, and as a result they are not embroiled in unnecessary wars of attrition in an attempt to police the world, and instead are our debtors.

I think this summarized the attitude of the America bashers (aka, the liberals) very nicely. Insulting America, praising the Chinese. Never mind the fact that the average GNI per capita in China is about $900, or that they have no concept whatsoever of human rights, or that America has made more scientific and technological progress than any other country in the world during the last century- China must be a superior culture because it's older! Or is it because their government embodies left wing goals so very well?

 

[Townsend]

To be candid, I think you are trying to make a case that is erroneous. You are welcome to your opinion, but most people consider countries to be a country/nation regardless of changes of governmental systems that may occur though it's history.

Is that so? So then the wouldn't every country be just as old as the next? I mean, before the United States government was established on the American land mass there was in fact different governments that existed within the Native American tribes...So this country is still arguably as old as most other countries by your own standards. As you seem to think it has nothing to do with what government exist at any given point in time.

If you believe the U.S. is an older country than China, or Iran, for example, please make your case with evidence from reliable sources.

I would love to give you a link but seriously don't understand what its purpose would be. Here is a link for you www.google.com. From there you can find most whatever information you want. So now what has that done? Hummm...nothing, as expected.

You said yourself that you believe that most people consider a country a country regardless of the different governments that existed within boarders of that region, do you have a link to support your opinion on that? I doubt you could find one but even if you did it would change nothing at all. Unless your link provided proof of your assertion it is meaningless. I doubt you would ever find such evidence and the search is not even worth while.


Now if you want me to show you that the US as a nation has the oldest national government in the world then that is rather simple.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=283

Now if you want me to show you a link that says a nation is a particular nation only as long as its particular government exist then I cannot find you one. However I doubt you could find one to refute my claim...

So where does that leave us? Oh dear, we might have to think and reason for our selves without relying on someone else's opinion...Oh whatever shall we do?

 

[TRCSF]

Now if you want me to show you a link that says a nation is a particular nation only as long as its particular government exist then I cannot find you one. However I doubt you could find one to refute my claim...

If by "particular government" you mean a system of government that hasn't changed due to foreign invasion or internal political revolution then, if you remember your history, Britain has had the same government since the mid 17th century. That was before the U.S. was ever dreamt of.

I'm willing to bet there's a number of others.

Now, if you're like most people, you consider a country to be a certain sovereign geographic area that contains a group or groups of people with a distinct culture, language, etc. and is still essentially the same country even if they endure a few years of occupation (France was still France in 1938 and in 1945) or some sort of coup (Spain was still Spain after the Spanish Revolution.)

By every standard that's important, the U.S. is a pretty young country.

 

[Townsend]

By every standard that's important, the U.S. is a pretty young country.

Important to who?

 

[vanesch]

What currently existing government is older than the US government? To my understanding there is none...

Ok, then... the Vatican ?

 

[Townsend]

Ok, then... the Vatican ?

You got me...but do we at least come in second place?

 

[vanesch]

You got me...but do we at least come in second place?

You mean find another gouvernment system that has the longest time since it had a major constitutional review ?

 

[Townsend]

You mean find another gouvernment system that has the longest time since it had a major constitutional review ?

I see your point...no need kill it any more.

 

[vanesch]

I see your point...no need kill it any more.

Well, no irony intended, actually I didn't realize before how "old" the US government system actually was. Of course, historically, 200 years is not so old ; many other government systems have existed for far longer times ; only most don't exist anymore. Examples that come to mind are of course the Romans, twice: as a republic and as an empire (the empire stretching about 500 years) ; the Chinese emperors (I don't know if a dynasty change counts as a major review, but even individual dynasties lasted for several hundred years).
That's probably mainly due to the instability of Europe since about 476, and the fact that from the 16th century onwards, Europe's "empires" covered a large part of the world, hence spreading this instability. As a result of WWII, most european countries have of course only their current government system in place since 1945 or later.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Is that so? So then the wouldn't every country be just as old as the next? I mean, before the United States government was established on the American land mass there was in fact different governments that existed within the Native American tribes...So this country is still arguably as old as most other countries by your own standards. As you seem to think it has nothing to do with what government exist at any given point in time.

DAMN ...Townsend, I never figured you for a Saddam supporter.

You are aware that you just gave Saddam's excuse for invading Kuwait aren't you?

You see, according to you, since kuwait is on land that has been geographically connected to the area since 'god' shaped the Earth then it IS part of Iraq.

Conversely, if you wish to argue that the 'country' of Kuwait became a separate 'country' in the 1920's, you have to give credence that a 'country' is not a geographic construct but an area ruled by a specific people for a period of time.

That being said, the land named after Americo de Vespucci did exist prior to the discovery by that guy know as Chris Columbus but from the link you give below, the 'Country' you describe as the oldest 'country' in the world has only existed since it's oldest written national framework of government came into being.

Presumably, the writers of the board you quoted don't believe as you do.

So, which is older, Townsend? Iraq or Kuwait ... the reason I ask is because Saddam's defence team needs a bit of help and your input would be greatly appreciated.

I would love to give you a link but seriously don't understand what its purpose would be. Here is a link for you www.google.com. From there you can find most whatever information you want. So now what has that done? Hummm...nothing, as expected.

You said yourself that you believe that most people consider a country a country regardless of the different governments that existed within boarders of that region, do you have a link to support your opinion on that? I doubt you could find one but even if you did it would change nothing at all. Unless your link provided proof of your assertion it is meaningless. I doubt you would ever find such evidence and the search is not even worth while.

France 1789 ... It's called a revolution. France went from being a monarchy to a republic.The Geographic construct still exists. The 'country' however changed.

It went from being 'France' to 'The Republic of France'. They changed their FORM of government.

Now, can you point to the specific rule that was in place in North America beyond tribal councils Which controlled behaviour within a 'clan'? What was the specific form of government that controlled all the beings of what we now know as North America?

Now if you want me to show you that the US as a nation has the oldest national government in the world then that is rather simple.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=283

Now if you want me to show you a link that says a nation is a particular nation only as long as its particular government exist then I cannot find you one. However I doubt you could find one to refute my claim...

So where does that leave us? Oh dear, we might have to think and reason for our selves without relying on someone else's opinion...Oh whatever shall we do?

So, your opinion is that since no other organized group of people had a 'written national framework of government' there has never been another government? ... Do you actually believe that?

So, until that point in time, who had the people of the colonies been paying tribute to?

Who were the Romans? And if it is true that they invented 'the Senate' why did they do it if they had no government?

Townsend ... you must be trolling.

Nobody can make such an outrageous statement and hope to be taken seriously.

You made a comment a little while back about me having problems with comprehension and yet you seem to black out when encountering specific words like 'written' and refer to the USA as the 'oldest government'.

And from this, your whole premise collapsed.

 

[stoned]

Nice generalization

but is soo true, check this.


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/08/25vorick_house_fox_news20050825.html

 

[The Smoking Man]

An interesting http://uk.news.yahoo.com/26082005/80/americans-schizophrenic-comes-france.html :

Friday August 26, 05:50 AM

Americans schizophrenic when it comes to France

PARIS (Reuters) - Americans seem to be schizophrenic when it comes to their opinion of France.

Arrogant is the best way to describe the French, according to nearly three out of every 10 Americans, but almost as many would call them open, a Le Figaro magazine poll showed on Thursday.

Some two thirds of Americans see France as a land of liberty and human rights in which people can freely practice their religion, and yet almost one third call it an anti-Semitic country.

And while French opposition to the Iraq war prompted U.S. media to dub French people "cheese-eating surrender monkeys", American public opinion is more nuanced -- 12 percent said the French were cowards while 10 percent considered them courageous.

Relations between the United States and France are expected to improve in the coming years by 36 percent of Americans and to deteriorate by 22 percent.

But the cliches associated with France tend to be more positive than negative -- ask Americans what best symbolises France and the good things in life come to the fore, with Paris, wine, and gastronomy topping the list, while strikes barely get a mention.

The survey polled 1,000 people between July 6 and 10.

 

[Skyhunter]

Now if you want me to show you that the US as a nation has the oldest national government in the world then that is rather simple.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=283

Now if you want me to show you a link that says a nation is a particular nation only as long as its particular government exist then I cannot find you one. However I doubt you could find one to refute my claim...

So where does that leave us? Oh dear, we might have to think and reason for our selves without relying on someone else's opinion...Oh whatever shall we do?

Finally you make your point with some evidence to back it up.

She didn't say America, she said "the U.S.", and the United States has existed for 229 years. I don't see what is so confusing about that.

Nothing...what makes you think I am confused?

I guess it was the emoticon.

What was here only a little more than 200 years ago?

You made the assumption, based on nothing SOS2008 said, that she was referring to the "government established with a written framework."

You accuse everyone of making assumptions about what you mean, but you won't be specific, or let anyone know what you mean.

You made this ugly and I think you should apologize and in the future make your point and stop attacking others.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Now if you want me to show you that the US as a nation has the oldest national government in the world then that is rather simple.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=283

Bogus. This states that the U.S. Constitution is the oldest written government framework. That's contentious in itself. The U.S. constitution may well have been intended as a complete government framework, but the amendments illustrate its incompleteness. The physical document of the U.S. constitution, at the time of creation (so excluding amendments), is the oldest document that forms part of the existing constitution, but is not the entire constitution of present-day America. You'll find plenty of other countries whose constitution or equivilent begins with much older documents. The UK, for instance, has the Magna Carta, the oldest part of its equivilent to a constitution, dating back to 1215. The Bill of Rights dates back to 1689. The insistence that the US constitution is the oldest framework for a complete government that still stands fails its own criteria.

Besides, saying a country has the oldest written governmental framework is not the same thing as saying it has the oldest government. The UK government is Parliament and, to a tenuous extent, the Queen (insofar as she is Queen-In-Parliament and must approve all bills, which she does because she wants to stay Queen). The British Parliament in its current form (house of lords, house of commons) dates back to 1295, though the presence of a Parliament itself is much, much older. Essentially all that has changed in this "model Parliament" is the amount of power they have, but that's power over and beyond the King (at the time) who is still (now a Queen) technically part of the government anyway. Again, I'm sure much older government structures can be found in other countries, just not the US!

 

[Townsend]

You accuse everyone of making assumptions about what you mean, but you won't be specific, or let anyone know what you mean.

I sure will, just as soon as you show me how what I asked has anything to do with the Stute of Liberty. Here is the question...

What was here only a little more than 200 years ago?

Now go back are read the responses I received from that simple question...then tell me again who is made some assumption...

 

[Smurf]

Uhh guys... technically doesn't the 'government' in a democracy change every time there's an election

 

[Informal Logic]

I think this summarized the attitude of the America bashers (aka, the liberals) very nicely. Insulting America, praising the Chinese. Never mind the fact that the average GNI per capita in China is about $900, or that they have no concept whatsoever of human rights, or that America has made more scientific and technological progress than any other country in the world during the last century- China must be a superior culture because it's older! Or is it because their government embodies left wing goals so very well?

Where has anyone posted in this thread how bad the US is, and how wonderful China is? The points being made are in reply to a claim that is BS, and members are being kind to even bother. However, IMO it has reached a point where this is only a waste of time for everyone.

I sure will, just as soon as you show me how what I asked has anything to do with the Stute of Liberty. Here is the question...

Please see reply above. If you would like we can do a poll--I vote for moving on.

An interesting http://uk.news.yahoo.com/26082005/80/americans-schizophrenic-comes-france.html :

Thank you for returning to the topic and providing interesting information.

 

[NewScientist]

The US is a superpower - nobody rivals it - least of all France, why should they apologise?

Does the school football bully apologise to the geek who likes to cook with garlic and is on the chess team?

-NS

 

[The Smoking Man]

The US is a superpower - nobody rivals it - least of all France, why should they apologise?

Does the school football bully apologise to the geek who likes to cook with garlic and is on the chess team?

Ever seen Revenge of the Nerds?

 

[NewScientist]

No I haven't!

I searched google but couldn't find any results...

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html

 

[TRCSF]

The US is a superpower - nobody rivals it - least of all France, why should they apologise?

Does the school football bully apologise to the geek who likes to cook with garlic and is on the chess team?

-NS

Given how Iraqi guerillas are handing the U.S. their own asses that American superpower must be highly exaggerated. Revenge of the Nerds seems an apt analogy.

(And what kind of ******* doesn't like to cook with garlic?)