Does Time Really Exist? Debunking Common Beliefs

[selfAdjoint]

About the clock and the watch's difference, can it be because of the relatively "fast" moving causes the watch to "work" slower(I don't mean it's not accurate, it's the nature that it will happen), instead of the "time" that it is measuring is "slower "?

THe time and the space are mathematically related. You are right that it's not the fault of the watch - or the clock!. They are both assumed to be accurate measurers of the "proper times" they experience. But your motions relative to the clock meant that your proper time (measured by your wristwatch) ran slower RELATIVE TO THE CLOCK AT HOME than that clock did.

There is no definition of time deeper than proper time. There is no "secret observer" whose time can be applied to everything. People have actually tried to theorize that God, who is outside time, is the secret observer, but nobody has built a successful, self consistent theory out of that idea. In fact is appears to be self-contradictory when you work through it. It really looks like we have to bend our minds around the unfamiliar facts of relativity.

 

[tabloid]

im tired of measuring time according to what older pple view.im tired of the 24hrr system;the GPS isn't growing fast enough;and if it did my good dream is to be able to relate an organism's location with time.if we can make such a piece of hardware which can clearly predict someone's co-ordinates with regards to time,then we won't need the normal time views we have.if
we can't have a global time;a common referrence point of measuring time so that we can know where every9ne is at?
i don't measure human progress in terms of theories;but what those theories have contributed in making more sophisticated tools that we use.
remember,if we don't participate in human progress,well most likely suffocate ourselves by ourselves right here on earth.well slowly rot and die away,before we even find another life in another world-different from us.

 

[oscar]

This issue about time was already discussed by philosopher Imanuel Kant. He asked if TIME is something that could exist in itself? What are the happenings of the universe without the time or the time without the happenings? He asked if space was something existing in itself and the idea was it was an illusion. How are we going to understand metaphysics if we don't physics? I can set the example of the "dream". It doesn't matter if you put electrods and check the closed eyelids to see the Rapid Movement of the Eyes (RME) measuring mini- cycles of dreams that would accumulate a total of aproximately 2 hours. The fact is that "subjective" experience has another ticking while you are objectivly dreaming and it's completely different from what scientists outsiders are measuring! And ask yourself something not solved by puzzled smart experts in neuron-surgery, the space of the dreams and thoughts. Therefore, I choose to believe ancient wisdom regarding this space-time issue:
www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=22384&page=1&pp=15

 

[selfAdjoint]

Well those smart neurologists aren't baffled by "The space of dreams"; they just don't for a minute believe in it. They believe that dreams are false sensations caused by excitations of the nerves in our sensory systems - principally the visual system. An awful lot is known about the internal workings of the visual system.

 

[oscar]

Wowawaw" Moderator is getting irritated but nop, I don't think is worth it to write the names of HUMBLE specialist who really don't know but make hypothesis of dreams. One thing is the possible meaning of the dreams and other thing is to know how does the brain work to produce them or the "ticking" of the dreams. But, evidently you're not a specialist in that area either so why would I waste my energy convincing YOU of the things they ignore. I know better since I have experience in medical area but I won't present my curriculum vitae to satisfy curiosity. In fact, I don't care what you are or your statements. Something to add about the issue? No? It figures! You're just beginning to be annoyed and are posting particular messages to every post that I make, why would that be Mr. Moderator? Hmm?

 

[tabloid]

arent u guys tired of wearing wrist watches;if you go around the world youll have to carry atleast five watches for the different times of those spots you wan' visit-unless ofcourse,you have a fabulous watch that can adjust itself as you move around.maybe they can try to make such a nice watch;thats what i was trying to say in my previous post above.

 

[The Bob]

What you need to consider about time is if it is in our world, e.g. clocks and the rate at which things happen, or is it independent to our world, e.g. it changes how it likes and we can never tell if it has changed or not because we are in it.

I believe that time is a very misleading factor in any science. Although used as a measurement in our world, time itself must be independent to us. It works with space. As we know space can fold and stretch (and this is a higher dimension than time) why not time? Time can form around us, stop, change speed and we will not notice any change as we are in it. We feel no different. So time is very hard to explain. As in relation to a clock it is a measurement, as itself (well) we really will never fully understand until we step out of time and can wonder around in it. Here is where we need to imgaine 4-Dimensioanl Shapes. Then we can 'Time Travel'. (See another thread).

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[LeBrok]

what if there is no time?

For a week I'm thinking about what's time. I have an idea that looks good to me so I decided to share with ppl. looking for the answer . What do you think? Here it goes. (can't explain it better, english is my second language)


Imagine there is no time… It’s tough if not impossible. At least you could imagine the room or other place without the movement. And maybe this is it. There is no time dimension, and instead of it there is a movement in space. In our case movement in 3 dimensional space.
Let’s ask a question.
Can there be time without space?
If time is a part of our space and there is no space there is no time. Unless time is a universal thing that exists outside our universe. But then we never know that not being able to exist or measure outside our space. According to most accepted theories there is no time without space.
Let’s ask another question.
Can there be space without time?
I think so, we can have even one-dimensional space with string particle in it but there is no movement at all. No movement of any sort. No moving particles, sub particles, space itself or whatever is the smallest element the world is build of. There is no time or other words the time stopped, the world never changes. The answer is, space can exist without time but not vice versa. The space does not need time to exist.

Consider other possibility. Let’s take for example a motionless world were the Time the 4th dimension does not exist. Visualize handful of small particles (try to imagine more then one, because if there is only one you will not know if it’s moving, relativity principle, remember?). They are not moving, they are in same distances to each other – no time no movement.
Now, what would it take to change the quantum state of theirs? To move the quantum distance, the smallest distance available in space, to make a little “jump” to other quantum state/space. Remember, in quantum world there is nothing in between the quantum states/space. You travel the quantum distance immediately. You cannot measure the time it took the particle to travel the quantum distance because there is no small enough quantum of time to measure it. Other words, the quantum “jump” is instantaneous and we don’t need time to pass to make this quantum move. You are going to see those little particles jumping from one quantum place to the other in space just because the movement in this space is allowed and not because the clock is ticking by.

If you stop the quantum motion/movement in space of the smallest particles that are in your alarm clock, the clock is going to stop and the “time” in clock. If you stop them in your body your life will stop and your perception of time. We can only perceive time because of our memory, because we remember how world looked like some time ago, other words some quantum movements ago.



Time travel.
If you could apply energy to move the tiniest particles beck so they can trays back their movements and states you could create for yourself an illusion of time going backward but for those tiny particles that would be a new set of movements and stats.
And of course to apply energy so precisely to every tiniest particle on bigger scale will always be impossible, so will be the travel in time.

 

[C. Michael Turner]

question?

This is true of non relativistic quantum mechanics, but not of relativity, either kind. In special relativity observers must compare physics using Lorentz transformations, and these mix time and space coordinates in linear transformations. So time can't easily be eliminated or downgraded in SR, or in any theory that dpands on SR, like Dirac's electron theory, quantum electrodynamics, the Standard Model, and all forms of String physics.

In General Relativity, coordinates, and physics, are subject to very general changes. Both time and space become somewhat "elastic" in definition. In both kinds of relativity, the same event, seen by different observers, can have very different time-space relationships.

If all matter were transfering to the gravitational wave would not each discrete matter set its own time and space; and through speed which represents the relationship of discrete gravitational waves affect time and space? Would Gravitational Relativity then be classified as: As a point of origin mass to energy tansfer in wave form?

 

[PoPpAScience]

Time is strictly the incrementation of Evolution. Time is only relative to the viewer. Time never exists, only passes. Time in equations is used to calculate markers in Evolution.

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

"what if time does not exist ?"

Time is natures way of keeping everything from happening at once.
There is a discreet interval between your question and my jest. There is SOME factor at work. Call it what you may. It generally gets slippery when talking about QM and causality , but hey this is just a board , right?

 

[Chronos]

What if 'reality' does not exist? Do the math. If you are correct, we will all disappear. Apologies. Why does anyone entertain this foolishness? Having not seen any valid math [albeit some bunk math], I wonder why this thread has not been moved to the philosophy forum.

 

[The Bob]

Time is strictly the incrementation of Evolution. Time is only relative to the viewer. Time never exists, only passes. Time in equations is used to calculate markers in Evolution.

That is what I have been trying to say.

Thanks.

Time may move differently to use but humans have set markers oni it that may not be accurate to time.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[Chronos]

Crap = crap. Time and space are inseparable, yet clearly observable participants in the universe we live in. They do not insist upon or require independent or absolute reference frames. Get used to it. Logic compares poorly to the solid math we have that does make sense and works.

 

[Epsilon Pi]

Time and space are inseparable, uhmm, that was established by Minkowski, but if we take into account that complex wave equation which was the beginning of QM, don´t we have that time and space are decoupled by the complex symbol, the so-called "imaginary" symbol? Don't we have then a different point of view about time and space when dealing with QM objects such as the electron?
Regards
EP

Time and space are inseparable...

 

[Antonio Lao]

At the infinitesimal 1D region of spacetime, space and time cannot be distinguished and both are curved by the very strong orthogonal forces as absolute constant localized angular accelerations. Because of the extreme forces, the constant change of directions of these accelerations, once started, are very difficult to vary hence the changing direction is conserved and these can become a principle of directional invariance.

 

[The Bob]

Basically time exists but we made the measurement time not time itself. If time didn't exist then all events would be simultanious and there would be no define points. Also Space curves with events in time so it must exist.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[donnie]

Basically time exists but we made the measurement time not time itself.

Good point

If time didn't exist then all events would be simultanious

Events are simultaneous and also in succession. Cause and effect. It boggles the mind to think back to what could have started the first event that caused this 'simultaneous succession'. Could we even consider that there could BE such a naming phrase?

 

[what_are_electrons]

Book titled "Does Time Exist?" by Henri Salles

Just bought a book a few weeks back with this title: "Does Time Exist?" It's a paperback from 1st Books Library (ISBN 1-4107-1057-2). Has anyone had a chance to read it? What do you think?

 

[The Bob]

Events are simultaneous and also in succession. Cause and effect. It boggles the mind to think back to what could have started the first event that caused this 'simultaneous succession'. Could we even consider that there could BE such a naming phrase?

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH. I can understand that all events in the world in a second are simultaneous but not every event ever (<----- Alliteration ).

Does my mind in because I am on MSN and I get the flashing message to say that I have a reply or a message but it was written earlier to me receiving it. But what you are saying is that the writing, sending, receiving and reading are happening all at the same time?! :surprise: That does your mind in.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[eljose79]

-In fact if quantum theory is right,"time" and "space" exist only in classical physics just as we see trajectories and particles have momentum but is nothing but an ilusion,in quantum world there is no space-time.

-Sahoshant:=perhaps you can use some kind of geometric transform to make an interval of space being an interval of time...there are many books who proposed that one of this is "El caballo de Troya" (Trojan Horse) by J.J Benitez who tells us about time travel and a new geometric conception of space time.

 

[Epsilon Pi]

-In fact if quantum theory is right,"time" and "space" exist only in classical physics just as we see trajectories and particles have momentum but is nothing but an ilusion,in quantum world there is no space-time.

But is it not the concept of particle as is defined in classical physics the one that is askew?
Is not the point of view of an "illusion" due precisely to the Copenhagen school of thought initiated by Heinsenberg?
Are not time and space decoupled precisely due to that other school of thought initiated by Schrodinger and its well-known complex wave equation?

-Sahoshant:=perhaps you can use some kind of geometric transform to make an interval of space being an interval of time...there are many books who proposed that one of this is "El caballo de Troya" (Trojan Horse) by J.J Benitez who tells us about time travel and a new geometric conception of space time.

Have you read the Urantia Book from which most of the basic proposal of "El caballo de Troya"(and other books by J.J. Benitez) was taken?... there, we certainly have a quite different cosmology, and as a matter of fact it says that an electron is constituted by 100 ultimatons. Does this give reason of that inherent polarity conformed by 50 and 50 ultimatons?
Regards
EP

 

[kurious]

If time did not exist then the arrow of time - entropy - wouldn't either.

 

[kurious]

If time did not exist then the arrow of time - entropy - wouldn't either.
Experiment shows that entropy does exist and changes with time.

 

[Epsilon Pi]

Yes, good point, and the arrow of time does not have to do with a concept of time not symmetrical, not of the space-like type? At QM levels it is definitively decoupled.
Regards
EP

If time did not exist then the arrow of time - entropy - wouldn't either.
Experiment shows that entropy does exist and changes with time.

 

[kurious]

Epsilon Pi:
At QM levels it is definitively decoupled

Kurious:
If you can find a truly isolated QM system independent of its environment.

 

[quantumdude]

Are not time and space decoupled precisely due to that other school of thought initiated by Schrodinger and its well-known complex wave equation?

But this completely misses the point. People say that time and space are coupled because of relativity, but the Schrodinger equation is nonrelativistic. Space and time are indeed coupled in relativistic QM, and in QFT.

 

[jcsd]

Hmmm, does time exist? Ask me again in five minutes.

 

[Entropy]

Give me a non-abstract definition of time and I'll tell you if it exists or not.

 

[bino]

time is a measuring tool.

 

[The Bob]

time is a measuring tool.

This thread is not about what humans use as a measuring tool, it is about time itself, or at least that I was what I have been led to believe.

It reminds me of when I posted earlier about humans thinking in measurement time and not real time.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[Epsilon Pi]

An askew paradigm prevailing?

What point does it miss, the one that has been prevailing in a paradigm that is askew, since both QM -as Schrodinger complex wave equation that explains just the behavior of one particle, the electron- and relativity do not talk to each other, as it is said the former is non relativistic?
Are you really sure there is not a framework that including the findings of both, QM, as per Schrodinger, and relativity equations and even others will solve that great schism we have lived in physics since then?
Should not a forum like this open its doors to the evolution of the philosophy of science in this sense, so we can have a physical science that not only talks with itself but with the other sciences as well?
Just some questions about an askew paradigm
Regards
EP

But this completely misses the point. People say that time and space are coupled because of relativity, but the Schrodinger equation is nonrelativistic. Space and time are indeed coupled in relativistic QM, and in QFT.

 

[Epsilon Pi]

Yes, there is one, and it is precisely the electron, and this fact is expressed in that now infamous Schrodinger wave equation; infamous because it does not have anything to do with the chemistry of nuclear interactions?
Is not a science that forgets its founders definitively lost?

Regards
EP

Epsilon Pi:
At QM levels it is definitively decoupled

Kurious:
If you can find a truly isolated QM system independent of its environment.

 

[brodix]

Space is the absolute and time is a third order function with two directions.

There is no universal reference frame, but a reference frame is an abstraction in the first place. What is space?

The idea that space is curved is derived from the assumption that it is only the context for physical properties and can so only be measured in terms of their motion.

Now this motion is measured as a function of such properties traveling a distance and distance constitutes a line segmant, so it is one dimensional. Even our abstract reference frames are three dimensional, so we judge the reality of space on the basis of a component of an abstraction.

Three dimensions start at the x,y,,z point, but it is arbitrary. Geometry never incorporated zero. Consider that 4x0=0, but that 4'x0'=4'. Four feet is four feet, but if you wish to assign it a factor of zero, then it should have consequences.

Assuming the point as the center of a reference frame equals one, what is zero in geometry, other then empty space?

Space is ultimately flat, in that all gravitational collapse and universal expansion balance out, so that Newton’s observation; “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.” still holds.

Every curvature of the path of traveling mass exists in a larger equilibrium where the tension of any particular disequilibrium is balanced out. If a two dimensional description of space curves into a gravitational well, it cannot do so from a flat plane, as this would imply a universal reference frame. It must be curving upward in inverse proportion to which gravity curves it downward.

The absolute is not a reference frame. It is equilibrium. In fact, any number of reference frames can be used to define the same space, so our map of space may be three dimensional for intellectually reductionistic convenience, but the actual territory of space is infinitely dimensional.

In fact, science generally accepts this equilibrium, considering such concepts as matter/anti-matter, electromagnetic polarities, etc.

Einstein felt the need to balance his theory of relative space and its effects with a cosmological constant, an idea that has yet to be buried.

It is those physical properties which exist in the equilibrium of space that are the second order.

This mass/energy is neither created or destroyed, but is in motion and constantly changing form, which is called information. As the amount of energy doesn’t change, old information is erased as new information is recorded. This is the process of time.

Information which existed, but no longer does, is the past. Information which has been created and still exists is the present. Information which has yet to be created is the future.

The measure of time is of specific motion against its context. As a measure of relative motion, the context is not an absolute, so it is in motion as well, effectively moving in the opposite direction. To the hands of the clock, everything else is moving counter-clockwise.

Our abstract units of time tend to be sequential, but the real units overlap. A day on the east coast isn’t the same time as a day on the west coast. While we see the sun as moving east to west, the reality is that we are rotating west to east, relative to the sun.

What this means is that while the unit of time goes from beginning to end, the process of time goes toward beginnings, away from endings. As daylight is draining from the east, it is pouring into the west.

This relationship between units and processes is fundamental. Individuals go from birth to death, but the process of life is pouring into the next generation as it is draining from the older generation.

While the products on an assembly line go from intiation to completion, the future for the process isn’t with what is finished, but is to be started. What matters to this process is not so much the finished product, but the energy generated in the form of wages and profits that allow it to continue. Just as food and information passing through you propels you toward gathering more.

Thoughts are the entities to the process of the mind, rising and falling as the mind gathers information and quantitizes it. As we get older, it takes less additional information/energy to form each thought, so time speeds up.

In any relationship, that which is defined is the entity and that doing the defining is the process, so it's the motion of the defined, like the hands of the clock, that we notice.

What comes first, past or future? We see past events proceeding future ones, but the events themselves are first in the future, then in the past.

Two people communicating with each other exist in each others future, but are perceived in their own past. Time is simply a function of subjective reality.

 

[tuna]

hmm

I'm still relatively(ha, my first science quip) new to this and I'm not well read so i won't be using any profound quotes but it strikes me that S/T, the first dimension we haven't got the hang of, is just the next step on the ladder that we haven't yet evolved fill. It seems easier for me to get my head around when i picture, absolutely, everything as a liquid of different consistency'...Like the lakes at the bottom of the ocean, there but for the grace of god...And their higher saline content :). What really gets me about time is the fact that it's eternal otherwise it wouldn't exist as it's confined within it's own boundaries. Also if M says that there is 11D super grav. then how/what/where is it contained other than within itself. Maybe some universal fractal code where the actual measurements are irrelevant.