Engineering Ethics: Struggles with Personal Ethics

[CaptainQuasar]

Actually, not it was not. I am sorry if you got worked up, but I was not trying to provoke you. I honestly couldn't figure out why you suddenly went from a civilzed discussion to throwing crap in my direction, but whatever...

Just in case you're actually being sincere here even though you again dodged the responsibility question, I wrote the following account pointing out your trollish behavior. I normally wouldn't get all explicit like this but if you really aren't seeing your own behavior you should.

[post=1623420]Here[/post] you claimed that I and the other people who had responded to you were avoiding your issue - which I hadn't been, as I pointed out [post=1623511]here[/post]. In that post you also said something about cowardice, which even if it was not directed against your interlocutors is a kinda provocative thing to bring up.

When you [post=1623516]replied[/post], instead of responding to any of the several paragraphs of things I'd said or acknowledging that I had not been avoiding the issue you brought up, you made a one-sentence demand for examples of military adventurism.

I responded to your demand [post=1623553]voluminously[/post] with three different examples, details about them, and a photograph. But instead of acknowledging that I'd fulfilled your demand and provided examples, you dismissed one out of three of them in [post=1623558]two sentences[/post].

See this pattern of how you make a demand or an accusation against me or craft an offhanded (and frequently erroneous) dismissal of evidence I've put together, and I respond to it, then you ignore what I've said? And don't even acknowledge that I've done what you asked or replied to your objections? That's troll behavior. And it certainly contributed to me taking a rather dim view of you dodging my questions.

Then you also start breaking out things like “You need to phrase your statements properly” - after I'm the one writing and researching and providing links in response to your demands and objections - when I've already said that it's perfectly okay for you to go into the defense industry if you want to - you're going to complain about and cast aspersions about the way I'm phrasing things? And furthermore when you do begin to respond more verbosely, it's to drop sound bites like “[post=1624415]That's just a cliché![/post]” rather than actually responding to what I said, accompanied by making faces.

And then of course, after all of the above, you start posturing about being more reasonable - dismissing a question I put to you as ridiculous and pathetic - and then later you try to put on a posture of being more adult. And insist that you have the right to make moral judgments for other people, then claim that you didn't say that. And to top it off, you have now avoided the first question that I insisted you answer, instead of the other way around, four times in a row.

So intentional or not you certainly have behaved in a provocative manner.

⚛​

 

[Shackleford]

If you believe that what the establishment is doing with those weapons is for the best, and that belief is well-educated, I don't think there's a moral problem. That is to say, if you know that they use them only when absolutely necessary and that their use will ultimately save more innocent lives than it will destroy (that is, saving lives both literally and figuratively speaking).

Personally, I find the current establishment (that of the USA, where I live) incredibly untrustworthy and far too irresponsible to be given control of such killing machines, so I'd have difficulty justifying myself in that profession. I won't debate this here, as it is ultimately up to you to decide whether or not these politicians and bureaucrats are trustworthy, but I'd suggest that your judgments should be well-educated and guided with a healthy dose of skepticism.

And what is the basis for your untrustworthy and irresponsible claims? Is it the media's reporting of "mistreating" of terrorists? Do you think they're going to just give up valuable information politely? - information that could save lives or bring the enemy down?

 

[PowerIso]

And what is the basis for your untrustworthy and irresponsible claims? Is it the media's reporting of "mistreating" of terrorists? Do you think they're going to just give up valuable information politely? - information that could save lives or bring the enemy down?

I'm not speaking for him, but I will point this out for you.

I'd have difficulty justifying myself in that profession. I won't debate this here, as it is ultimately up to you to decide whether or not these politicians and bureaucrats are trustworthy, but I'd suggest that your judgments should be well-educated and guided with a healthy dose of skepticism.

He made his choice and he isn't alone. I support his assertion that this current administration cannot be trusted. It seemed like after 9/11 Bush turned a 180. When he was the governor of Texas, he wasn't half bad. He even did his part in promoting green living in Texas. Prior to becoming president, he was against preemptive strikes but after 9/11 his attitude changed completely. His actions, he claims, are justified by the fact that the world is different now.

I wouldn't say different, these people have all ways been after us, but now, since we've been hit at home, we see it more clearly. Of course no one cared about the possible ramifications of our interference in middle easy policies until now, yet we don't learn our lessons.

Some odd years after 9/11 instead of heeding the lessons learn, we ignore them and actually become more involved into middle easy policy believing WE can change an ancient society that has resisted change violently for many years.

When people who have such a lack of understanding on culture, history, and such a disrespect for life and rights, I am, however unfortunate it is, forced to ask "how did this great nation become such a safe haven for those who disbelieve in everything this country stood for at one point or another?" Then I look up and see the snarly faces of the neo-cons and I become sad. Sad that our country was lost to so few.

 

[Mathemaniac]

And what is the basis for your untrustworthy and irresponsible claims? Is it the media's reporting of "mistreating" of terrorists? Do you think they're going to just give up valuable information politely? - information that could save lives or bring the enemy down?

I do not wish to derail this thread with a debate about whether or not our current political system is trustworthy in this thread, nor do I wish to push my judgment of that matter on to other people. And I'm not sure why you think torture or military secrets have anything to do with my judgment. There is a difference between military secrets, kept for the sake of security, and the outright dishonesty of politicians, which is really my motivating factor here.

I am ultimately convinced that such inquiries are worthwhile. Considering the ceaseless joke that is American politics, the deceitful people involved, and how easy it is for special interests to influence it (going into names or specifics would derail this thread in a heartbeat), it is by no means unreasonable at all to ask whether or not these folks are worthy of bearing the responsibility of controlling any kind of killing machine. And I think the builders of such machines are morally obligated to at least ask such questions, if nothing more.