Engineering PhD: frustrated and unemployed

[unemployedphd]

I recently finished an engineering Ph.D. in the area of heat and mass transfer. I graduated from a top-ten engineering school. I have average publications but I am only 25 years old and know I have a lot of potential. Both my grad and undergrad GPA > 3.8.

I have been looking for a job for almost a year and I have found nothing. I have applied for everything: postdocs at universities, industrial jobs, faculty positions, national laboratory jobs, postdoctoral fellowships, and even financial analyst positions. Literally I have sent out hundreds of resumes and made many dozens of phone calls.

I have done my best to seek help and advice from my contacts and personal connections. I had two very successful internships at national laboratories and I have great relationships with many professors. However, I have not been able to find a position.

I know my resume is solid and my interview skills are at least average. In 2007, after I got my Masters, I applied for five jobs. I interviewed for every position and received several offers. I decided to forgo the offers and pursue my Ph.D. Right now the major problem is that I can’t even get interviews.

I am so frustrated. I am also tired of writing proposals only to see them rejected with no explanation.

I am on the verge of bankruptcy. I cannot pay my bills. I have been making less than $1300 a month working part time. My credit gets worse and worse. I had to have an emergency surgery a couple of years ago and I have many unpaid medical bills. At this point, I am worried that when I do land a job offer I will be denied the opportunity because of my abysmal credit.

I am confident that I am a great candidate. I really need some anonymous advice. What am I doing wrong?

 

[edgepflow]

It is truly unfortunate to see people work so long and hard on a subject as difficult as physics, earn advanced degrees, and then encounter difficulty finding employment. I see this in many threads in these forums.

You mentioned you had several job offers after you earned your masters. Was there items on your resume at that time that you have removed?

 

[Choppy]

It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong.

You could try changing your game a little. While I understant that it works for some people, I've never been a fan of the shotgun approach to looking for a job (emailing out hundreds of resumes).

What's worked for me has been more of a sniper approach. Take your time to research a position well to find out (a) if you're qualified and (b) if it's something you really want to do. Contact anyone you can who may have some background information on the position. Then find out who is making the hiring decision and contact that person directly. And then follow up. In my experience, resumes are just place holders.

 

[ParticleGrl]

I feel your pain, I have a physics phd and have been unemployed for nearly as long. My recommendation for the meantime is to swallow any pride you have and find an upscale restaurant (or a bar, if you have any experience bartending) and wait tables. You'll clear way more money then what you are making now. I pull in 1200 in tips some weekends. Its a bit late in the season (generally places pull in extra staff beginning of summer), but you can probably find some places that need reliable workers.

You could try removing your phd from your resume. I downgraded my resume/CV to just a masters (and listed teaching and research as job experiences) and am getting twice as many job interviews as I was before. I still haven't landed anything, but more interviews has to be increasing the odds. A few head hunters have suggested I give up on traditional technical work completely, and focus on business analytics (finance isn't big in my geographic area), which is a pill I haven't been able to swallow quite yet, but I'm getting sick of mixing drinks.

 

[gravenewworld]

People don't want to believe it, but you really can educate yourself out of opportunities, a lot of firms simply don't want to hire highly trained individuals anymore because they're "overqualified". These days an education isn't a golden ticket for even a modest middle class income. I have a very, very pessimistic outlook for my economic future and simply don't know anymore what is going to happen when I get out of grad school. Europe and North America are falling apart big time economically, and it may take decades to recover. You may have to start looking overseas or like others have said, work a terrible job to make ends meet and find work in a different field all together.

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

Grave, if things are bad in the USA and Europe I don't think you can expect it to be any better elsewhere.

 

[Pengwuino]

Grave, if things are bad in the USA and Europe I don't think you can expect it to be any better elsewhere.

Not true. China, boom. Done.

 

[twofish-quant]

People don't want to believe it, but you really can educate yourself out of opportunities, a lot of firms simply don't want to hire highly trained individuals anymore because they're "overqualified".

And they have good reasons for doing that. If you hire someone that is more qualified than the position calls for, then when/if the economy improves, they'll leave or ask for more money, whereas if you hire someone without qualifications, they are stuck.

The other thing is that you run into social issues if you have an employee thinks that they are more qualified than their supervisor. It could be true. It could not be true, but either way it's a tricky problem.

And then you could be misqualified. Just because I have a Ph.D. doesn't mean that I'm a competent bank teller or shoe salesman.

I have a very, very pessimistic outlook for my economic future and simply don't know anymore what is going to happen when I get out of grad school. Europe and North America are falling apart big time economically, and it may take decades to recover.

A decade is a long time economically speaking. One reason to be optimistic is that the Great Depression lasted for "only" about 10 years. Also things can only fall so far before people get mad and try to do something about it, and you can only make so many mistakes before you run out of stupid things to do.

You may have to start looking overseas or like others have said, work a terrible job to make ends meet and find work in a different field all together.

The problem with looking for work overseas is that other countries may not take you. China and India have booming economies, but the governments have their hands full with returnees, and are not interested in taking on more people than they have to. China will not issue work visas to people with less than two years of work experience.

Also what China did isn't particularly original. What it effectively did was to print massive amounts of money, do lots of deficit spending, to stop unemployment. There are people that thing that because of this that the Chinese economy will blow up. They might be right, but if the Chinese economy doesn't blow up, then there will be a lot of pressure on Europe and NA to copy China.

 

[Ken Natton]

I recently finished an engineering Ph.D. in the area of heat and mass transfer.

As part of an ERC funded project, we are seeking a Postdoctoral Researcher to join a small group seeking to understand fundamental aspects of how temperature stress impinges on grain-formation. You will hold a PhD...

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3437418#post3437418


Don’t know if there is any relationship or if I am the only one to spot the connection. Is it not worth investigating?

 

[PatrickEE]

This may seem heartless, but I am glad you posted as it gives engineers a look into the current job market. To have done so much good work over nearly a decade only to be shunned by employers would be infuriating. This definitely solidifies my decision to finish my masters and get out.

In terms of your job search, I would focus heavily on skills (Matlab, C, modeling software) and key courses that are related to the job being applied for. And certainly have a good summary of your experience and goals as they directly relate to the position.
Also, are you an EIT or PE?

 

[kalakoi]

This may seem heartless, but I am glad you posted as it gives engineers a look into the current job market. To have done so much good work over nearly a decade only to be shunned by employers would be infuriating. This definitely solidifies my decision to finish my masters and get out.

In terms of your job search, I would focus heavily on skills (Matlab, C, modeling software) and key courses that are related to the job being applied for. And certainly have a good summary of your experience and goals as they directly relate to the position.
Also, are you an EIT or PE?

You think that for engineers MATLAB and c are the most important things to master?
What more ,by the way?

Also, i do believe that in todays world is better to get out with a masters than to go to the phd!

 

[twofish-quant]

Also, i do believe that in todays world is better to get out with a masters than to go to the phd!

I'm not so sure.

1) I would like to see some real evidence that people with masters degrees are having an easier time getting jobs than Ph.D.'s. This *isn't* true for people that I know personally since the situation is that people with Ph.D.'s are having a tough time, but people with masters degrees are having it even tougher. Also, every labor statistic that I've seen says that the unemployment rate for Ph.D.'s is below people with masters degrees.

If you have someone with a masters degree say that they have no problem getting jobs, I'll listen closely to them and try to figure out what that means, but I haven't seen anyone actually say this, and I've looked. Note here that the job market in 2007 is wildly different from the market today. Unemployment in 2007 was 4.6%. Latest number was 9.1% and that likely undercounts.

2) A lot of the reason people think that a Ph.D. will hurt you is that that ends up happening is that the employer looks at the resume and says "overqualified." This does happen and that knocks the Ph.D. out of the running, but then you have a room full of people with masters degrees scrambling after the same jobs.

 

[Pyrrhus]

It depends on who those the hiring. One of my friends completed a PhD in Engineering, and within 5-6 months, She was able to find a job. Now, the committee hiring was full of PhDs. I think that helps significantly!.

 

[kalakoi]

I'm not so sure.

1) I would like to see some real evidence that people with masters degrees are having an easier time getting jobs than Ph.D.'s. This *isn't* true for people that I know personally since the situation is that people with Ph.D.'s are having a tough time, but people with masters degrees are having it even tougher. Also, every labor statistic that I've seen says that the unemployment rate for Ph.D.'s is below people with masters degrees.

It depends on what area are those Ph.D's!In engineering most jobs aren't nearly as demanding as a specific physics jobs.

Obviously that for physics related jobs the more knowledge you got and the more "intelligent"(finishing with great GPA) you are, hence the Ph.D, it means more opportunities because that area is in itself related to development, evolution etc...

While in engineering , the job in itself is more soft, more down to earth!
Nothing out of the reach for the majority of the science related majors science wannabes!

With the pure hard sciences such as math and physics the story is way to diferent!
Its more about what you really are and is more to who can, not to who wants!

Obviously when talking about physics and math majors in non direct related jobs such as finance jobs, things are different!

If you have someone with a masters degree say that they have no problem getting jobs, I'll listen closely to them and try to figure out what that means, but I haven't seen anyone actually say this, and I've looked. Note here that the job market in 2007 is wildly different from the market today. Unemployment in 2007 was 4.6%. Latest number was 9.1% and that likely undercounts.

I don't have many friends with science related majors but i do know that the great majority of medium to big companies have the Ph.D's jobs already "given".
Also, most companies would prefer accepting a masters rather than a Ph.D with the same kind of skills!

2) A lot of the reason people think that a Ph.D. will hurt you is that that ends up happening is that the employer looks at the resume and says "overqualified." This does happen and that knocks the Ph.D. out of the running, but then you have a room full of people with masters degrees scrambling after the same jobs.

It happens more and more, and sometimes i hear or see histories of "overqualified" people who won't accept settle for a "lesser" job!

Or the company just doesn't want to spend a bit more because of having him!

 

[Vanadium 50]

A PhD in engineering is a rather unusual degree - it's intended to lead one towards an academic or at least research position, rather than as a practicing engineer: that degree is Mech. E. or Chem. E. or E.E. The natural path forward is as a postdoc.

What does your thesis advisor say about why you can't find a postdoc?

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

In my little corner of the world, a PhD doesn't earn you any more credibility than someone with On The Job experience would have. I know some people in my line of work with PhD certificates and they're no better off than anyone else.

Engineering is very much a hands-on field. There are many practical things that you just can't learn in a classroom. If you are closer to the theoretical side of the field, that's great, but the money and jobs are usually in more practical hands-on places.

If you haven't done so already, take the EIT. Take whatever work you can find, but be sure to write something for a magazine or a major blog site on the Internet. It doesn't have to be academic. In fact it may be better if it isn't.

I see it often: people get so focused on school that they forget it is merely a means to an end. It is your foot in the door towards a career. If the career is in academia, a PhD is a good thing. Other than academia, however, a PhD isn't usually something industry would look for.

 

[Shaun_W]

It could be because a lot of engineering jobs are less interested in academic qualifications than someone who can demonstrate that they will fit into the team and perform the job at hand well. Your qualifications may be irrelevant for the job you're applying to. Of all the projects that I've seen, people with only undergraduate degrees were able to perform the heat and mass transfer work.

And also, as others have said, the natural progression from a PhD is to academia, not industry. A bachelors is nearly always enough for industry.

 

[brushman]

Also, every labor statistic that I've seen says that the unemployment rate for Ph.D.'s is below people with masters degrees.

Where can I find unemployment statistics for PhDs? This is all I've found: http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/highlite/emp3/figure1a.htm

 

[uby]

The economy is certainly difficult at the moment, and industry/government positions are few and far between. However, I am surprised that you have found difficulty in landing a post-doc position. Academic post-doc positions seem to always be available -- especially for U.S. citizens working on energy or defense-related projects (many of which involve transfer process modeling).

If you were to do a search in Google Scholar for areas directly and indirectly related to your expertise, and pull up a list of ten authors who have published recently in these fields, and then contact them to see if they have any post-doc funding -- you might find some leads.

 

[twofish-quant]

In my little corner of the world, a PhD doesn't earn you any more credibility than someone with On The Job experience would have. I know some people in my line of work with PhD certificates and they're no better off than anyone else.

In my corner (software and finance) what ends up happening is that what you did as a Ph.D. gets counted as "work experience" so Ph.D. = masters + 3-5 years experience.

I see it often: people get so focused on school that they forget it is merely a means to an end. It is your foot in the door towards a career.

This depends on the culture. In my family, people got Ph.D.'s for the sake of getting the Ph.D., and getting a career really wasn't part of the bargain. My general advice is if you are concerned only about career, then a Ph.D. isn't worth it. Now if you have non-career reasons for getting a Ph.D. it's different.

If the career is in academia, a PhD is a good thing. Other than academia, however, a PhD isn't usually something industry would look for.

This is also very society/culture dependent.

I do know one person that was a geologist who was in technical software sales and ended up doing a part-time Ph.D. in petroleum engineering for career reasons. The reason is that we did a lot of business selling oil software to the Middle East and East Asia, and in that area, having the word "Doctor" in front of your name gets a *LOT* of respect and influence so it helps him sell software there. Because people with Ph.D.'s are very highly respected in the Middle East and East Asia, having one will help you get hired in the oil/gas world.

 

[edgepflow]

Just to add something to the discussion about PhDs in industry.

Companies that emphasize R&D often seek PhDs. I have seen this at several companies I have worked for. They prefer a PhD for certain research positions.

 

[bjc219]

All of these posts apply to Engineering PhDs, correct? I assume the ballgame is a bit different for Physics PhDs.

 

[edgepflow]

All of these posts apply to Engineering PhDs, correct? I assume the ballgame is a bit different for Physics PhDs.

I have seen situations in which an advanced chemical process development involves both PhD chemists and PhD chemical engineers. If your PhD was in physics, and you wanted an R&D job in industry, I would think with some effort and planning you could receive serious consideration for these openings.

 

[ParticleGrl]

All of these posts apply to Engineering PhDs, correct? I assume the ballgame is a bit different for Physics PhDs.

It depends on your specialty. My anecdotes would suggest engineers have a bit of an easier time finding work in industry, both because their phd programs tend to require internships where they make some connections, and because they fit into a 'slot' that the company is used to dealing with.

Lots of companies know what to do with an electrical engineer but have no idea what to do with a high energy physicists, for instance.

 

[bjc219]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm still an undergraduate student, and I'm working on two degrees -- one in Physics and one in Chemical Engineering. Still thinking about graduate school.

 

[absurdist]

Have you tried applying for a job in countries with economically oleaginous potential. You have I presume some background in ChemE since you specialize in H and M ttansfer?
The oil industry needs more engineers esp in the middle east...

 

[StatGuy2000]

Have you tried applying for a job in countries with economically oleaginous potential. You have I presume some background in ChemE since you specialize in H and M ttansfer?
The oil industry needs more engineers esp in the middle east...

I'm actually surprised that more Americans (I'm assuming most of the people responding here are Americans) have not applied to various industry positions in Canada, particularly in the province of Alberta (which, like Texas, is known for its oil & gas industry), where there is a quite healthy employment situation.

I'm certain that there would be positions open for geophysicists, chemical engineers, electrical engineers, etc. for people willing to work in the oil industry. However, I could be wrong about this (disclaimer: I have never worked in the oil industry).

 

[smashbrohamme]

I am glad I did it the good ol fashion way. When I got out of High School I learned a trade(industrial electrician, electrical assembler) and I ran with that to land me a nice paying job in the middle class 45K salary. I went to school to get my Computer Aided Drafting and Design AAS degree. I knew this would be the quickest way into the engineering department as a designer for my company. Now all I have to do is get my electrical engineering degree which I am currently doing and I am gaurantee a engineering job as a electrical engineer.

True I will be about 27 years old when I finish but when I graduate I will have a gauranteed job and about 6 years experience in my related field and have already put 4+ years with my current company. Not a bad trade off. Oh their paying for it as well.

 

[JamesGoh]

To the original poster, may I suggest trying to get yourself involved in volunteer/unpaid opportunties related to mechanical engineering ?

Even if its a step down from your PHD, experience (whether paid or unpaid) is more relevant.

While you do your volunteer work, find some part time work to help you pay your bills

I couldn't get into RF Design engineering because of my lack of experience, so what I do is that I volunteer at my local community radio station and work parttime to pay the bills

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

True I will be about 27 years old when I finish but when I graduate I will have a gauranteed job and about 6 years experience in my related field and have already put 4+ years with my current company. Not a bad trade off. Oh their paying for it as well.

This is not wasted time. You will have experience that a great many engineers will never get: how things actually look in the field.

I did something similar except that my employer's financial assistance barely managed to pay for my books. Still, I persevered.

I have known a great many engineers who are no smarter than I am, but who have absolutely no experience using test equipment and can't be trusted to use a soldering iron correctly. They also don't know much about how various parts age or fail. With the field experience you'll have, you'll be years ahead of the rest of the pack.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it to anyone who will listen: Engineering is the application of academic concepts to a practical world. You have to have your feet firmly planted on BOTH sides of the reality. I have no patience with engineers who don't know how the design actually works or performs. Some make designs that can't be built; others make designs that don't work as expected.

Spending time at a practical trade is actually better spent than most things that people do while studying engineering.

 

[streeters]

I know my resume is solid and my interview skills are at least average...Right now the major problem is that I can’t even get interviews.

If you are not getting interviews, then your resume isn't suitable.

The point of a resume/CV is to get you an interview. If this is not happening, you need to re-write it.

I worked as a recruitment consultant for a few years and this is the mantra we repeated several times a day. It's usually pretty true.

 

[engr405]

OP, I find it hard to believe that someone with a PhD from a top 10 school is unemployed!

Did you ask some of your employed friends to take a look at your resume? Do you tailor your resume to the position you are applying to? Do you come across as someone who is easy to get along/work with?

The semiconductor industry is currently on a hiring spree... Intel, Samsung and Globalfoundries. Most industry jobs are unfulfilling and braindead compared to research, but you will make good money!What is your visa status ? Are you a citizen/green card holder?

Tech companies lament on the fact that they don't have any citizens they can hire... there is no way they won't call you for at least an interview!

A little about me: Recent cond. matter physics PhD working in one of the companies mentioned above.

 

[ParticleGrl]

OP, I find it hard to believe that someone with a PhD from a top 10 school is unemployed!

I know of at least four phds from the top 10 physics program I went to who are unemployed or underemployed (bartending, in nursing school, getting an actuarial degree) or unemployed for more than a few months. This is just people I know personally who graduated in the last 6 months and didn't want a postdoc.

The only people I know who have found industrial positions quickly are condensed matter people who worked on silicon.

Tech companies lament on the fact that they don't have any citizens they can hire...

Tech companies lament publicly and fail to even interview privately. If tech companies really lamented a lack of people they can hire, they'd snap up semi-relevant phds and train them, instead of waiting for someone pre-trained in the exact job. Thats what happens when there is a shortage- people who are trainable get snapped up and trained, look at the dot come boom. Right now, there is no tech shortage. The cynic in me often thinks they lament the "shortage" to keep a flood of people going into tech to reduce salaries.

They want people whose phds or undergrad education trained them for the exact job. Great if you are a condensed matter guy who worked on silicon and learned some relevant techniques, terrible if you are a theorist, or did astrophysics, etc.

 

[hadsed]

A little about me: Recent cond. matter physics PhD working in one of the companies mentioned above.

I'm a little more interested about you (since I work in condensed matter physics). Are you a theorist/computationalist or an experimentalist? What do you do, what skills were you hired for, etc.? I'm just rather interested in where people who work in condensed matter theory end up (if you're an experimentalist that might be entirely different, though perhaps someone will find it useful).

 

[gravenewworld]

Welcome to the realities of the US economy. Our populace is too educated and there's simply not enough jobs for everyone.