Ethics of Immigration Restriction

[Dissident Dan]

Has anyone ever considered the philsophy relating to restricting the immigration of people for reasons other than because a particular individual poses a threat?

Right now, there are many people in nearby nations who would love to come to the USA, but can't. Is it right or acceptable to restrict them? A person who happened to be born in one area of the United States has free reign to go wherever in the nation (s)he wants, accessing the resources (both natural and man-made, people, objects and services) available. A person born in Maine has the opportunity to go to California and make a fortune as an actor, or go to Texas and make a living in the oil business, or go to Silicon Valley to work in the computer industry. Yet a person who happened to be born in the Dominican Republic or Mexico cannot legally do this.

Is it ethically necessary or acceptable to prohibit their accessing these resources, or is it ethically bad?

 

[Kerrie]

Dan, America is actually quite lenient on allowing immigrants to enter...most other 1st world nations, such as Canada, Australia, and England don't allow such easy access...ever heard anything about the Australian Refugee Camps in the hot desert? there have been numerous articles regarding the inhumane treatment of all people, including children...recently i chatted online with an Australian asking what it was like there to live, and he enlightened me to this fact, which i was very shocked to hear...

I believe that America should have its doors open to those who wish to immigrate LEGALLY as my mother's side migrated from Sicily and Czechoslovakia, but my ancestors also worked hard, paid taxes and abided by the law just as (most) American citizens do...allowing people to freely come in and out of the United States can put other American citizens at risk...

 

[olde drunk]

FEAR

i always try to look at the source of an issue before dealing with a question.

most reasons for limitations on immigration invariably lead to fear. fear of losing jobs, being victims of terrorists or fear that we might drop lower on some social scale.

removing fear, why not?

if an immigrant can take my job, I'm probably going to lose it anyways.

if I'm low on the social ladder, what's another step?

am i really ever safe from terrorism? wouldn't all the money being spent on "security" be better focused on understanding and relieving the plight of the hopeless/desparate potential terrorists. trust me, if i wanted to terrorize anywhere in the world, including Isreal, i would. a police state is not an answer.

so, bottom line, is it ethical? without a solid foundation for the rules and regulations it can not be ethical.

peace,

 

[rody084]

most people don't know the truths of american immigration...

one of my good friends:

he met a south american girl who was here on a visa (legally) they fell inlove... he went back wiht her to her country... they came back here to get married, and they denied her her residence... said it would take at least 2 years during which she wouldn't be allowed to enter the US...
but there is more: she doesn't know much english yet...so she made a stupid little mistake on her immigration form becuase no one explained it to her... so she got charged with fraud and is now permanently banned from the US.

a friend of my parent's:

they are a couple who is unable to have kids... so they adopted a starving child from Korea... BUT immigration then told them that they have to wait 12 months before the child can enter the US... now they arent wealthy people so they can't afford to travel all the way there... so its already been 12 months... and that child grew up his first 12 months with a different family while they were trying and trying to get him sooner...


my own old situation:

i immigrated here when i was 12 years old... i applied for my residence through my father (a US citizen) requesting me... it has been 8 years now and the papers are nowhere to be seen... we have spent a total of $30,000 (yes 4 zeros) in legal fee's and INS fee's and 8 years of our lives trying to get a simple residency card... and i was not allowed to work until recently... and the second i leave the country, i get banned for 10 years... that's not fair at all


now in all these 3 situations... neither person is a threat to society... not at all... but yet immigration law remains ignorant to individual cases...

i thought i would share my personal experiences with everyone so that you can be informed about what all these new "anti-terrorism" laws are really doing... they arent doing anythin against terorism...if they want to get in... they will! they are only harming the innocent people trying to help others or survive themselves

 

[Zantra]

I have to agree with kerrie. I understand that the immigration process is a difficult and frustrating one. However, you have to weigh the pros and the cons. True, these laws do not stop all terrorists, but they serve as a major deterrent. Short of erecting a 20 ft steel wall around the entire country and manning it 24/7 with guards, there are no guarantees. But it's better that an open access system where people opposed to american ideals can just walk right in and destroy American from within. We have to protect ourselves. It's a sad but true fact. It's the very small percentage of terrorists who ruin it for everyone else.

As far as the illegals taking away our jobs. That is happening anyways legally. 20 years ago manufacturing jobs were in an outsourcing trend, and many jobs were lost to overseas labor. Now thaet is happening with the white collar jobs in the medical and IT fields. They recently began erecting heat sensing thermal detectors at all the major border crossings. This will cut down even more on the illegals. If they institute a plan where they boot everyone illegal from the country, then go to the companies and say " you must sponsor them legally" then all those below minimun wage jobs that all the illegals work will disappear, because it will be too costly to the companies, which are just as at fault for hiring illegals, as the illegals themselves.

So look at the choices- you can come here legally- it takes 12-24 months. You register, pay taxes, get the education and good jobs available, OR you risk life and limb coming here illegally, Work a job below minimum wage regardlesss of education or experience because none of the good paying jobs are available to illegals- companies won't risk it. Work that minimum wage, looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life, and if you get caught, you're either deported and banned for life from the US, or you pay a fine which usually is in the 10's of thousands of dollars, and still have to go through the legal process anyhow. Meantime, you'll be working for so little money, that it probably isn't much better of an existence than the country you come from, if you take into account the cost of living vs your below minimum wage income. The choice is simple.

 

[NIT14]

Has anyone ever considered the philsophy relating to restricting the immigration of people for reasons other than because a particular individual poses a threat?

Protecting ourselves from the "threat" of immigration is completely necessary. The threat goes far beyond the individual immigrant though. It's a collective threat. We seem to be too focused on the "threat" that a single person, let's say a terrorist, may pose. Keeping terrorism out of our land is imperative, yes, but we neglect to focus on the big picture.

We have to remember to live for eternity. In the long run, the "benevolent" immigration that some speak of is actually far more malicious than a few muslim extremists who may have gained access to our land. We have become so apathetic toward our people that we let nearly anyone nonchalantly waltz right into our country.

Massive immigration, particularly from Mexico and other 3rd Worlds, is an assault upon the people and culture of this nation. If we want to preserve what is left of this country, limiting immigration and protecting our borders are definite prerequisites. But, our borders continue to remain almost completely open. This is a deliberate assault upon American culture (or at least what once was) and the American people. We must elect one who will protect his own nation above all. Bush and his neo-con posse are spending billions of dollars basically protecting Israel's borders, why do they refuse to protect our own?

This immigration not only affects our culture and complexion, it has a profound impact on many other elements in society. Immigration is usually parrallel to crime, poverty, drugs, lack of education, etc. Look at California, or should I say Mexifornia. The state has gone to hell and is only bound for worse. 30% of California's prison population is composed of illegal aliens. Many of these illegal Mestizos leech Medicaid and other forms of welfare from our government, thus costing us more money. Why should we have to pay for people who have no right to be here in the first place?

Oh, how politically incorrect that rant was..

 

[FZ+]

We have to remember to live for eternity. In the long run, the "benevolent" immigration that some speak of is actually far more malicious than a few muslim extremists who may have gained access to our land.

I would disagree vehemently. In the long run, immigration is essential.

Massive immigration, particularly from Mexico and other 3rd Worlds, is an assault upon the people and culture of this nation.

I disagree. The immigrants are not invaders. Rather, on the long term, they ARE the people and culture of this nation. What consitutes the American culture, these days in any case? The detah of culture historically arises from ignorance of the world around it, and I would consider migrants to add to America's culture, rather than remove from it. A return to the attitudes of the Puritan settlers is, obviously, unthinkable.

Immigration is usually parrallel to crime, poverty, drugs, lack of education, etc. Look at California, or should I say Mexifornia. The state has gone to hell and is only bound for worse. 30% of California's prison population is composed of illegal aliens.

Look at the long run, again. The cause of such crime is not inherent goodness of americans, but in the attitude of paranoid xenophobia, or protetcive isolationism on both sides. The alienation of the immigrants are the cause of their problems, and history shows clearly that integration can be very successful. And though they may in some cases leech off social security, on the whole the migrant population contribute greatly in an economic way to the national productivity.

And having workers pour in is infinitely preferable to remaining uncompetitive in the global workplace, and thus having jobs pour out directly to plants in the 3rd World.

Oh, how politically incorrect that rant was..

The campaigners against suffocating PC can do better by ignoring it, and making it unneccessary/irrelevant, than be proud to flout it, thus giving it credibility.

 

[Njorl]

I think you can argue whether it is wise or foolish, but with the exception of political refugees, I think it is not a matter of ethics.

Let me illustrate. High US immigration levels may seem beneficial to the people of Mexico. It supplies cheap labor to US farms, allowing them to produce food cheaply. This, in turn drives down the price of agricultural goods in other nations, including Mexico. While the US is a large net producer of argicultural goods, many countries have these goods as their only export. Low US prices cripple developing economies. So while immigration helps impovrished individuals, it can hurt impovrished nations.

Njorl

PS - Mexico actually benefits from immigration because of the US currency sent back to reletives, but other poor natios as a whole are harmed by Mexican immigration to the US.

 

[olde drunk]

Originally posted by NIT14
Protecting ourselves from the "threat" of immigration is completely necessary. The threat goes far beyond the individual immigrant though. It's a collective threat. We seem to be too focused on the "threat" that a single person, let's say a terrorist, may pose. Keeping terrorism out of our land is imperative, yes, but we neglect to focus on the big picture.

We have to remember to live for eternity. In the long run, the "benevolent" immigration that some speak of is actually far more malicious than a few muslim extremists who may have gained access to our land. We have become so apathetic toward our people that we let nearly anyone nonchalantly waltz right into our country.

What are you affraid of? only fear would motivate such a response. to me, our loss of freedom since 9-11 and the homeland security act is far more damaging than letting others into our country.

do you really believe that you can stop terrorism with laws, inspector, guards and police?? i do not. the only way to eradicate the need for terrorism is to go to the cause of the problem. terrorism is nothing more that a painful boil that just popped, revealing that there is a very bad infection within the world body.

we need to feed, clothe, shelter (inside and outside our borders) and teach the angry that a better way exists other than terrorism. we attempt to cure the infection.

continuing to GUARD OUR STATE will lead to a continuous loss of freedoms and ultimately a police state. i'd rather die living free in an attack than worry about the safety of the next plane, train ride or attending an event.

Philosophically, HOW DO YOU STOP TERRORISM?

peace,

 

[Sikz]

I don't understand... We have.. a country. And... we own it.. And we don't want other people to come take some of it... So um, what possible reason would it not be ethical to keep it for ourselves?

 

[NIT14]

I would disagree vehemently. In the long run, immigration is essential.

How exactly have you come to this conclusion? The invasion from Mexico has already began to destroy the west half of our nation. Immigration, whether it be legal or illegal, from places like Mexico is not going to help our nation in any way. The economic man is the only one who profits off of these parasites. He exploits them. He compromises the quality of his American population for material gain.

I disagree. The immigrants are not invaders. Rather, on the long term, they ARE the people and culture of this nation. What consitutes the American culture, these days in any case? The detah of culture historically arises from ignorance of the world around it, and I would consider migrants to add to America's culture, rather than remove from it. A return to the attitudes of the Puritan settlers is, obviously, unthinkable.

Well, of course they will become the people and culture of this once-great nation if current trends persist. These questions we must ask ourselves though: Do we want this new America? Or, do we want to preserve what little integrity we have left of our European-American culture? I say it is our obligation to preserve this country, its people, and its traditions. As the complexion of our population begins to change more and more each year, our nation takes yet another step closer to its now inescapable fate. Maybe you do not see what I see at this moment in time, but in 50 years or so, I can assure you; you will.

The campaigners against suffocating PC can do better by ignoring it, and making it unneccessary/irrelevant, than be proud to flout it, thus giving it credibility.

I could care less about political correctness. It doesn't exist in my world, and I never let it restrict my views.

What are you affraid of? only fear would motivate such a response. to me, our loss of freedom since 9-11 and the homeland security act is far more damaging than letting others into our country.

What am I afraid of? I'm afraid I will have to live in a third world slum in the later part of my life. I am afraid that one day one of my family members will be the victim of gang violence. I'm afraid of the loss of property value, the sense of community, and the moral integrity that once existed.

But yes, we have replaced our true freedom with blind, self-righteous "patriotism." Dissidents are now persecuted and the 1st-Amendment hardly exists.

Philosophically, HOW DO YOU STOP TERRORISM?

Well, in our case, you stop playing world police. More importantly, you stop sending billions of dollars to Israel. You become less globalized and more isolationalist.

 

[NaD]

Is it ethically necessary or acceptable to prohibit their accessing these resources, or is it ethically bad?

I'm not quite sure I see the "ethics" part to it - I think it's more about people wanting to bring people who would make their country a better place to live in. It's all about labour and capital. BUT, as we don't see that happening in USA or Canada for that matter, when people with PhDs are denied immigrant status and illiterate people are brought in simply because of their geographic location (quotas, etc., which I think are stupid and unfair, just like affirmative action), I think what's going on is quite unfair if not unethical. And yes, I think it's quite "ethical" to allow people within the country to move where they pleased -- because they have already contributed to their country/society, whereas those who are seeking immigrant status have no claim on the country's resources because they have not contributed to its economy YET. So in choosing who is allowed to immigrate and who isn't, they are exercising their right. That's my take on this.

 

[olde drunk]

Ethically, how do you own a country?

We happen to reside in the US and (ethically) been charged with its care. Unfortunately, we stole the land from the natives and think that we are entitled to do with it as we please.

Laws and regulations are not ethical. The only reason they get enacted is because of fear. Fear of losing what we think we have. Fear of terrorism. Fear of an economic loss because you might have to support the poor immigrants.

All of us would not be here if there were laws back in 1492! isn't that where the ethical question should start.


peace,

 

[olde drunk]

Originally posted by NIT14
.
What am I afraid of? I'm afraid I will have to live in a third world slum in the later part of my life. I am afraid that one day one of my family members will be the victim of gang violence. I'm afraid of the loss of property value, the sense of community, and the moral integrity that once existed.

But yes, we have replaced our true freedom with blind, self-righteous "patriotism." Dissidents are now persecuted and the 1st-Amendment hardly exists.

Well, in our case, you stop playing world police. More importantly, you stop sending billions of dollars to Israel. You become less globalized and more isolationalist.

Please be honest, we have slums, gang violence and value loss in metro residential areas already. do you think keeping other cultures is going to change or speed up the process??

it'happening and enacting new immigration laws is like the pols misdirecting us with a placebo. the pols do not want to address these problems directly. so, it is much easier for them to say hey this new law will stop the erosion of our quality of life. by the time we realize it ain't so, they are retired on full pay and nothing has been done.

it's like banning smoking is going to improve the quality of our air! no, banning SUV's with only one occupant driving 25 miles to and from work, will! unfortunatley, that isn't popular, and we get misdirected with the smoking laws. now there is a very silly unethical piece of legislation. the very same people that complain about the smell of smoke drive big hydrocarbon belching vehicles. more carcinogens spew out 1 exhaust pipe than a whole pack of cigarettes.

sorry, but when we look at an ethice question, i believe we need to look at the original reason the question arises. if fear is the motivator, legislation is not an answer without evaluating the basis of the fear, etc etc


peace,

 

[selfAdjoint]

Please be honest, we have slums, gang violence and value loss in metro residential areas already. do you think keeping other cultures is going to change or speed up the process??

Damn straight I do. At present the LA police are forbidden to explore illegal immigration as a membership source for vicious street gngs because of political correctness.

 

[NaD]

Ethically, how do you own a country?

How do you own a country? Well, for starters, you own a country when you are the ruler.

We happen to reside in the US and (ethically) been charged with its care. Unfortunately, we stole the land from the natives and think that we are entitled to do with it as we please.

The land is not the issue at all. It's the culture and economy that we're talking about -- both established by European settlers / colonialists.

Laws and regulations are not ethical. The only reason they get enacted is because of fear. Fear of losing what we think we have. Fear of terrorism. Fear of an economic loss because you might have to support the poor immigrants.

And I'm already not supporting poor illiterate immigrants? My tax dollars go to support them and the various programs that encourage/advocate multiculturalism. It's about getting the RIGHT people into the country, not just ANYONE. It's not like we have an underpopulation problem and need to bring people JUST ANYONE, as long as they're human beings. We have an economy that has not collapsed (yet), and we're not dying off. The question remains: Do we bring in unskilled and illiterate people, or do we bring in the skilled people? If we open up our borders to just everyone, we might as well give up on the country and hand it over to others. Which is slowly what's happening, actually -- slowly but surely.

All of us would not be here if there were laws back in 1492! isn't that where the ethical question should start.

could be. but we are here and our ancestors built this country (or at least its bases), and we have every right to protect/defend our heritage and civilisation. As long as we are in power, we should have the say on how to run the country. It seems pretty logical to me. I don't know what's so illogical/unethical about it..?

 

[NIT14]

...when people with PhDs are denied immigrant status and illiterate people are brought in...

lol.. Well, I really don't think there are very many Mexican immigrants who have PhDs.

We happen to reside in the US and (ethically) been charged with its care. Unfortunately, we stole the land from the natives and think that we are entitled to do with it as we please.

Well, that's life. Life is survival of fittest. Saying it is unethical to conquer a piece of land is ridiculous. Do you think that the Native Americans "stole" the land from the animals that were here before them? Of course not. It's basically the same concept. It's just like the food chain, except not food. Only the strong survive.

Laws and regulations are not ethical. The only reason they get enacted is because of fear. Fear of losing what we think we have. Fear of terrorism. Fear of an economic loss because you might have to support the poor immigrants.

You mean fear of losing what we DO, or once did, have. Never looking out for your own interests and only for the interests of others does not constitute "ethical" behavior.

Please be honest, we have slums, gang violence and value loss in metro residential areas already. do you think keeping other cultures is going to change or speed up the process??

Absolutely! The problem is already out of control, yes, but does that mean we should just give up and let our country rot away? Why would we do such a thing? The United States has probably already passed the point of no return, but this is not necessarily an absolute statement. Having this defeatist attitude when it comes to our own nation is certainly not going to contribute to the restoration of greatness.

Damn straight I do. At present the LA police are forbidden to explore illegal immigration as a membership source for vicious street gngs because of political correctness.

You're absolutely right. These illegal CRIMIALS are not punished. So what do they do? They tell the rest of their family (which tends to be thousands of people.. haha) to sneak on over and have their share of exploitation. Actually, if you want to learn a few things about these illegals, I suggest you listen to this broadcast. (Yes, the source is quite biased when it comes to certain issues, but that doesn't discard the reality of the situation. By the way, who isn't 'biased'?) http://www.natall.com/internet-radio/ts/122003.ram

but we are here and our ancestors built this country (or at least its bases), and we have every right to protect/defend our heritage and civilisation.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Njorl]

Yeah! Those damn Mexicans comin' here and ruining the glorious Anglo citidels of San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Antonio, Sacramento, uh ... notice anything about those names smart guy?

Njorl

 

[NIT14]

Yeah! Those damn Mexicans comin' here and ruining the glorious Anglo citidels of San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Antonio, Sacramento, uh ... notice anything about those names smart guy?

The names really aren't relevant. What is relevant though, is what the state once was and what we want it to be. Not to mention that these places have Spanish names, not Mexican (if that makes sense to you). California was given its name by the Spanish conquistador Hernan Cortes. This is all beside the point though. The point is that the state is corrupt. It gets worse each year as millions of legal and illegals flood into our country. Soon enough our primary language will be Spanish. I don't know about you, but I do not want our culture to change, let alone that drastically.

 

[olde drunk]

i don't want to bust your bubbles, but you suffer much, much more from the crimes of the powerful elite. be thankful they allow you to keep what you have.

all you got to do is go along with what they want you to do. keep out aliens! and your assets are protected. ARE YOU SERIOUS?


our internal problems will not get worse with more immigrant! it might get better if you push the elected officials to do a better job and not just please their contributors. that is what burns up our taxes.

please address the issue of 'ethics', not your concern that you will lose some undefined asset. these laws are robbing your freedoms! our freedoms are more important than loss of property value.

THIS IS THE LAND OF THE FREE! LET'S LIVE UP TO AN IDEAL THAT'S WORKED FOR 300 YEARS. ethically, we should not deny anyone entry. these actions by homeland security are simply pacifiers for the masses. we can never be safe and they will use this time to further limit our freedom and add to big gov's power.

let's remember, we can't take it with us, and passing it on to our children isn't necessarily doing them a favor.

i am not a liberal, but as a conservative, i hate not being able to just hop on a plane and go, when i want, without a 3 hour circle jerk.

i repeat, if you were a terrorist, do you think these measures would stop you?

 

[NaD]

our internal problems will not get worse with more immigrant! it might get better if you push the elected officials to do a better job and not just please their contributors. that is what burns up our taxes.

How can you prove it? Prove it and I will believe you. After the 1965 chain immigration, things have gone downhill. Far quicker than things went downhill before the immigration in-flow started.

please address the issue of 'ethics', not your concern that you will lose some undefined asset. these laws are robbing your freedoms! our freedoms are more important than loss of property value.

that IS about ethics. it's about the ethics of being legal or not. it's about the ethics of keeping the promises you made when you got elected - to make the country a safe/secure place to live in, where people are not silenced for their views, including their views on immigration.

THIS IS THE LAND OF THE FREE! LET'S LIVE UP TO AN IDEAL THAT'S WORKED FOR 300 YEARS. ethically, we should not deny anyone entry. these actions by homeland security are simply pacifiers for the masses. we can never be safe and they will use this time to further limit our freedom and add to big gov's power.

the land of the free? yes, but may I remind you that the bases on which this country was founded (speaking about USA) was about true freedom -- true freedom meaning, freedom for all regardless of their views, and their skin colour (including white people, who are now silenced by the waves/trend of political correctness and multiculturalism/diversity propaganda). In the name of freedom they silence us, in the name of security they lock us up for expressing our views. in the name of multiculturalism they bring in thousands of illiterate people who proceed to ruin our country, kill our men, women, and children. in the name of immigration they tell us what we're supposed to do - our country - our policies. our choice? no. lemmings' choice. lemmings who would sell this country for even 10 dollars if it ever came down to personal profits. that is not what this country was founded upon. and if you think it was, then you are truly delusional, OR, misinformed by the politically correct multicultural education (an education that has gone down the drain due to immigration...)

 

[NIT14]

i don't want to bust your bubbles, but you suffer much, much more from the crimes of the powerful elite.

Well, you're right, in a sense. What you have to realize is that our country IS being destroyed by the Mestizo invasion and several other malicious elements. These "powerful elite" though, are the ones deliberately destroying our country for their own personal collective and material gain. So yes, they are the ones who are actually causing the problems in this country. The primary concern with Americans today, is that we have all become far too materialistic. We tend to be apethetic about anything that isn't between our TVs and the shopping mall.

our internal problems will not get worse with more immigrant!

How you can even suggest this blows my mind. Of course it will get worse. Unless of course, you are some liberal, self-hating, "diversity-monger."

our freedoms are more important than loss of property value.

Absolutely. We have lost our freedoms though. When we are no longer able to live in a clean, safe environment; we are at that moment denied our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Putting an end to immigration isn't going to give us some financial reward, it's about the quality of life in your own country.

ethically, we should not deny anyone entry. these actions by homeland security are simply pacifiers for the masses. we can never be safe

That's absurd. We are "ethically" obligated to let anyone into our country? You are off your rocker now. Maybe we should invite Al Qaeda (spelling?) to waltz right on over and do as they please. You do seem to think it's our moral obligation to let millions of Mestizos come to exploit our government services, and corrupt our neighborhoods, so it wouldn't surprise me if you would let terrorists come here.

i am not a liberal, but as a conservative, i hate not being able to just hop on a plane and go, when i want, without a 3 hour circle jerk.

Well, you must be a neo-conservative.

i repeat, if you were a terrorist, do you think these measures would stop you?

Probably not, but they sure as hell would make it quite difficult for me. If we can prevent just ONE, it's well worth it.

 

[olde drunk]

you guys are making the assumption that all was peaches and cream prior to 9-11. what i am saying is that we were in a state of 'ignorance is bliss'.

the world was going to hell and we were ignoring it because we got ours; 'let them get theirs'. well the world jumped and bit us on the butt! even our domestic problems were being ignored because we were all fat and happy. amazing how metaphysically we brought about 9-11. it is/was a wake up call.

rather than understanding the cause and effect we chose to wage war and pass laws limiting our indiviual freedoms, all in the name of security.

we will not be safe, no matter what measures you enact, until we go in and resolve the worlds problems with assistance and immigration, if necessary.

waging war and passing laws are window dressing. please do not be misled by the politicians who are affraid to deal with the real problems because they aren't popular.

let's show our leadship that we want freedom and world peace. that's what they are being paid to do. they violate the ethics of their office every day and passing restrictive laws are just another way to create the illusion that they are doing something. let's challenge them to stand up and perform; not send our children to war and close our borders to the needy.

hey all our time, money and effort really works on the mexican border doesn't it?


peace,

 

[NaD]

World peace is impossible to attain. If it had been possible to attain, the world wouldn't have witnessed wars since the beginning of humanity (as far as written history stretches, at least)...

And as long as there is difference, there will always be power relations. Because different people can't be equal. Because they don't want to be equal. Because superiors want to hold their superiority and inferiors want to be equal to the superiors. And that is what immigration tries to do. And it is a band-aid on the problem, but it's not the solution. On the long run, it only makes matters worse.

Our country/counrties is/are not a place for illiterate people to crash, make use of welfare and abuse the system. And that is what they are doing - the majority of them anyway. We don't want lazy bums here. We want people who work hard for their own survival and the benefit of our country/economy. If each country didn't have its own economical purposes/intentions/goals, what justifies the existence of borders? It's about national interest. And immigration is nothing but propaganda to weaken countries. How many immigrants does Japan accept from Europe and North America per year? Think about it.

 

[olde drunk]

NaD

World peace is impossible to attain. If it had been possible to attain, the world wouldn't have witnessed wars since the beginning of humanity (as far as written history stretches, at least)...

very poor reason. argue for our limitations, etc. aren't we proud to be more/better educated and on the dawn of a new age? hell if we don't make the first step, we will never have peace. i do not want to condemn my children to a world at war. let's begin the process for peace.

Our country/counrties is/are not a place for illiterate people to crash, make use of welfare and abuse the system. And that is what they are doing - the majority of them anyway. We don't want lazy bums here. We want people who work hard for their own survival and the benefit of our country/economy

oh i see, everybody in the world is dumb and lazy except us. if your opinion of others is that low, how do you go out at night or even let your children out of the house?? please rexamine the fear behind your stance. if our gov(s) do what they are suppose to do, immigrants and natives will not be able to abuse any welfare system.

i am third generation american and have enjoyed a nice life. it was very dicey back in the 40's but we got through with no help from big brother. why do we, now, provide so much? my answer is, votes. we do need to change our political process, however, that's another topic.

if we are the world leader we must allow immigration or no one will take in the abandoned (in their native land) of the world. this attitude will only help POLARIZE the nations not heal our differences. we must set the example, because if we don't who will??

peace,

 

[NaD]

if we are the world leader we must allow immigration or no one will take in the abandoned (in their native land) of the world. this attitude will only help POLARIZE the nations not heal our differences. we must set the example, because if we don't who will??

the abandoned? the abandoned, with all due respect, can go to their country. we are not the gather place of abandoned, poor, illiterate people. that is not what the founders of our nation had in mind.

and you say "heal our differences"? you say that as if it's a wound. difference is an inevitable part of life. if we were all equal and the same, there would be no point in life/living, because we would become machines, with no concept of self and free will.

set the example for what? i don't see pakistan being tolerant of us Westerners. so why should we be tolerant of pakis, especially that they come to our countries and take our jobs (even though they are illiterate -- something called "equal opportunity", aka privilege), commit crimes (murder, rape, beatings), demand sharia courts, etc.

I don't see Westerners immigrating (even "abandoned Westerners) to third world countries. So why should third-world people be given free access to our country and resources? As long as our tax money is being used to support them in one way or another (or to implement immigration plans, or to solve the problem of homelessness, gun crimes, violence [the majority of gun violence in Canada being committed by Jamaicans..]), I think we should have a say in who enters our country.

 

[String Theorist]

I think we have too many people in America, I would like to shut the borders, and even sterilize the stupid and criminal people already living here, or rather just kick them out (yes, I'm a real meany).

 

[olde drunk]

Disappointment

I assumed that the people here were somewhat ahead of the times. i am truly disappointed at the these reactions.

i'd hazard a guess that 80-90% of us are here because our fore fathers and mothers came here after being abandoned in their native land. now, because we happened to be born here, we want to deny this opportunity to others. that is sad beyond ethics.

even more disturbing is that you blame the underpriveleged for our ills. how foolish.

talking with friends, we find it amazing that each of us, during adolesence, did some thing(s) that except for the luck, we could have been killed or arrested and/or jailed. now, as an adult you believe that you got your piece of the rock and no one else can have any. trust me the rock is infinite. what anyone else gets is his reward and does not reduce or minimize my world. actually my world grows.

we will either pay for the improvement in the world situation with time, effort and money or lives. i don't think it's rocket science. the more the world suffers the more the animosity toward the west increases.

sterilization of our miscreants is very forward thinking. hey, let's stone all the SUV's that go down the road polluting our air. we can also blow up all churches, i think they are corrupt. and while i am at it shoot all attorneys, they protitute the laws. hey man, we can solve all our problems with violence--GREAT!

I feel complelled to say that the last paragraph is meant as irony.


peace,

 

[Dissident Dan]

Originally posted by NaD
the abandoned? the abandoned, with all due respect, can go to their country. we are not the gather place of abandoned, poor, illiterate people. that is not what the founders of our nation had in mind.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"

set the example for what? i don't see pakistan being tolerant of us Westerners. so why should we be tolerant of pakis, especially that they come to our countries and take our jobs (even though they are illiterate -- something called "equal opportunity", aka privilege), commit crimes (murder, rape, beatings), demand sharia courts, etc.

If everyone had that attitude, hardly any disputes would be resolved. If you sit around waiting for the other to make the first step, it is likely not to be resolved. It is up to us to act like adults and take the steps necessary for progress. Saying, "But, he started it" doesn't get anywhere. Intolerance induces intolerance in others, and tolerance induces tolerance in others. Your words are very negative towards others, but you can you look down upon them if you act in the same childish way that they do (supposing that they do)?

Since when do Pakistanis have record of coming to the USA and committing murders, rapes, and beatings?! This is a statement made without any actual knowledge of the situation. If you are going to make such an assertion, you need documentation.

I don't see Westerners immigrating (even "abandoned Westerners) to third world countries. So why should third-world people be given free access to our country and resources? As long as our tax money is being used to support them in one way or another (or to implement immigration plans, or to solve the problem of homelessness, gun crimes, violence [the majority of gun violence in Canada being committed by Jamaicans..]), I think we should have a say in who enters our country.

You may have an argument in the taxes issue, but I fail to see why you or I have any more right or claim to the natural or social resources of this country than anyone else.

 

[NIT14]

I think we have too many people in America, I would like to shut the borders, and even sterilize the stupid and criminal people already living here, or rather just kick them out (yes, I'm a real meany).

Absolutely. There are WAY too many people in America, and it's only getting worse. Not to mention the fact that America's population isn't only increasing in size, it's decreasing in quality. The only logical thing to do is close our borders and be extremely selective when it comes to immigration. Those who believe it is "mean" and "unethical" to let anyone waltz right on over into our country are fools. This notion that it is only "ethical" to open our borders is completely ridiculous. This idea is most definitely a product of the feminization of America. It's the result of many years of social conditioning. Start thinking with your head, not your heart. If you want what's best for your country, and more importantly your people, you have to open your eyes.

I assumed that the people here were somewhat ahead of the times. i am truly disappointed at the these reactions.

What makes these "progressive" individuals assume that time somehow magically renders the inescapable laws of nature inapplicable?

i'd hazard a guess that 80-90% of us are here because our fore fathers and mothers came here after being abandoned in their native land. now, because we happened to be born here, we want to deny this opportunity to others. that is sad beyond ethics.

As a country evolves, certain aspects of that nation become irrelevant. Life today, as you know, is much different than it was when our forefathers came and built. Are you really willing to compromise the integrity and quality of your life for some irrational, "ethical" obligation you feel inside yourself? Not to mention the fact that our forefathers' intentions were far from what you happen to envisage. This country was founded and built for their "sons." I don't think illiterate criminals from all over the world qualify as their "sons," do you?

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"

This wasn't said to make the exploitation of our country a regular, legitimate thing. Once again, the intensions of our forefathers are perpetually, and deliberately misinterpreted for the sole purpose of advancing a particular agenda.

Since when do Pakistanis have record of coming to the USA and committing murders, rapes, and beatings?! This is a statement made without any actual knowledge of the situation. If you are going to make such an assertion, you need documentation.

Well, I'm not sure about Pakistanis in particular, but the rate at which Mestizos commit crimes is far above the rate at which Whites do. Obviously, our forefathers would not consider these Mestizo immigrants their "sons." Not only do they happen to be criminals much of the time, they tend to abuse our government services.

 

[olde drunk]

The quality of life is the product of what I make specifically for me and my community within the social scheme. I do not believe that our immigration rules and regulations will affect that one bit(with or without aliens).

what i am saying is that what we do socially affects the quality of life. Walls and borders are built out of fear, not an intelligent foundation for a decision.

i find it very ironic that a practical joker can close down our government with a can of talcum powder. simply spread a little here and there on mail and everyone runs for cover.

we have become a paranoid nation. this is what i want to avoid. the more we fear, the more our lives become regulated. we want to be safe on our streets so we will install TV cameras to record activities in high traffic areas. i know, if i ain't doing anything wrong why worry. i don't, but like censorship, where will it stop?

poor social mores can only be corrected with education and guidance; it can't be legislated. this may seem slower, but in the long run it will have staying power. Walls, borders, occupations, wars are a perpetuation of what hasn't worked before. Look, northern ireland hasn't solved anything because the two sides are polorized; nor have isreal and palestine.

it is time for progressive thinking-outside the traditional box- not liberal, progressive. ghandi did more for his followers than any leader of recent history. why can't we use his methods as a model for our thinking??

think and act positive and the outcome has better odds of being successful. negative actions breed poor results.

peace,

 

[NIT14]

The quality of life is the product of what I make specifically for me and my community within the social scheme. I do not believe that our immigration rules and regulations will affect that one bit(with or without aliens).

Well, you are free to believe whatever you will. And I am free to believe that you are quite wrong. Let me tell you why. You can control yourself, your ambitions, your outlook, etc., but you can't control those of others. People are different. Immigrants just happen to be very different people. Especially when it comes to a completely different ethnic group. They have different goals, different ambitions, religions, etc. Diversity causes friction, it's as simple as that. A "successful" multi-racial society is unprecedented. This is because the equality religion is a lie. Difference is omnipresent, equality is non-existent. That may not sound "ethical," but it's the truth.

what i am saying is that what we do socially affects the quality of life. Walls and borders are built out of fear, not an intelligent foundation for a decision.

Well, I'm sorry to say that you are incorrect. Letting mass immigration occur affects the quality of life. It has already happened. Are you blind? Your country has changed drastically in the last 50 years. It has changed for a few reasons. First of all, mass immigration, particularly from our southern border, is completely changing our culture and our population. Second, the feminization of our nation has softened us to buy into much of this liberal nonsense. And Finally, we have become so materialistic that we no longer care about the value of the important things in life.

i find it very ironic that a practical joker can close down our government with a can of talcum powder. simply spread a little here and there on mail and everyone runs for cover.

If we got our act together, dumped the corrupt politicians, and stopped focusing on the interests of those in other regions of the world, we wouldn't have to worry about local terrorism or things like the PATRIOT act, which restrict our freedoms.

poor social mores can only be corrected with education and guidance;

These people have been unable to build and maintain a successful civilization throughout history. What makes you think that they are capable of living up to our expectations? They certainly shouldn't be "educated" at the expense of our country, and at the expense of our lives.

think and act positive and the outcome has better odds of being successful. negative actions breed poor results.

This is a very liberal notion. Sometimes what is negative happens to be reality. We can't sit here and pretend that our nation and its future are secure when in reality, we are on the verge of extinction.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by Dissident Dan
Has anyone ever considered the philsophy relating to restricting the immigration of people for reasons other than because a particular individual poses a threat?

Right now, there are many people in nearby nations who would love to come to the USA, but can't. Is it right or acceptable to restrict them? A person who happened to be born in one area of the United States has free reign to go wherever in the nation (s)he wants, accessing the resources (both natural and man-made, people, objects and services) available. A person born in Maine has the opportunity to go to California and make a fortune as an actor, or go to Texas and make a living in the oil business, or go to Silicon Valley to work in the computer industry. Yet a person who happened to be born in the Dominican Republic or Mexico cannot legally do this.

Is it ethically necessary or acceptable to prohibit their accessing these resources, or is it ethically bad?

Immigration is allowed and quotas for as many people who would like to come should be allowed to enter, within controlled limits. Apart from the ethics point of view it is a absolute necessity because the birthrate is 1.1 per couple. It does not take much mathematics to see that if we did not let immigrants enter, the economy would crash in a few generations due to the lack of work force. Consider what would happen in five generations if the birthrate did not change and stayed at 1.1 with no immigation.

 

[ray b]

I live in MIAMI the largest 3rd world city in the USA
this was once a good place to live
IT IS NOW THE POOREST MAJOR CITY IN THE USA thanks to unrestricted imigration
three major problems here

spanish is now the nominal language
so bilingual means we do not hire americans who just speak english
but just spanish is fine

our local 3rd worlders, don't want to stay in the USA they are just here intill the revolution comes [but it never does]
they EXPORT a large portion of their income
back home, this results in a offshore "TAX" as all funds sent out never come back or have any multiplyer effect in the local econoimy

we have the highest unimployment rate in the state plus the lowest per capita income


please put up the we are FULL SIGNS
and deport all illegals NOW
and all americans will be better off
or in spanish NO MAS [no more]
the era of imigration is OVER

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by ray b
I live in MIAMI the largest 3rd world city in the USA
this was once a good place to live
IT IS NOW THE POOREST MAJOR CITY IN THE USA thanks to unrestricted imigration
three major problems here

spanish is now the nominal language
so bilingual means we do not hire americans who just speak english
but just spanish is fine

our local 3rd worlders, don't want to stay in the USA they are just here intill the revolution comes [but it never does]
they EXPORT a large portion of their income
back home, this results in a offshore "TAX" as all funds sent out never come back or have any multiplyer effect in the local econoimy

we have the highest unimployment rate in the state plus the lowest per capita income


please put up the we are FULL SIGNS
and deport all illegals NOW
and all americans will be better off
or in spanish NO MAS [no more]
the era of imigration is OVER

You should state the facts as they are, not as you wish to state them. There is no unrestricted imigration. There are quotas each year to fill the needed work force. If you do not want immigration, ask yourself the question, did i give at least 2.0 children to fill the work force. The problem is not the immigrants, it the politicians. Instead of spending billions on weapons, a war should be waged on hunger in all these needed countries and there would be no need to immigrate elsewhere. Money should be spent on solving world problems of hunger, education, tecknology for a higher standard of living for all Earthlings. Let me remind you my friend that you and I immigrated to America though our ancestors and America belonged to the Indians. Immigrants are just as important as you or I are. Americas greatness is because of its diversified ethnic mix. The land of oportunity for all. Take your beef to the Politicians.