Examining the Validity of Sexual Harassment Claims in the Media

[WhoWee]

Most of the time something like this happens to a woman, it doesn't occur to her that there have been others in the same situation. Seeing this scandal unfold probably gave her the courage to step forward.

Also, frankly, it's humiliating. Especially since she was, in fact, asking him for a favor - maybe she was afraid it would make her look bad. I bet she just wanted it to go away, and pretend it didn't happen.

Btw, she has identified herself as a "registered Republican" (NPR).

I just heard an interview with the accuser and Attorney Gloria Allred. She said she talked to Cain at a convention recently and he remembered her. Why would she go to see him at a recent convention? Next, she claims her former boyfriend called to determine if she was one of the anonymous accusers - then encouraged her to contact Atty Gloria Allred - because she needed the best.

The more I hear about this - the more it sounds like a failed date - drinks, dinner, and a room upgraded to a suite - over a weekend?

Perhaps the biggest clue was when she said Cain asked her "why" she was there - this was during drinks and discussion of the room upgrade.

Today she said they previously had a great time (with her boyfriend along) at an NRA convention prior to the bad encounter. They (accuser/boyfriend/Cain) were familiar and social - this time she came alone.

Please note, the NRA food shows/restaurant conventions used to attract over 100,000 people into McCormick Place over the weekend - $10-$15 admission at the door and all the food, beer, wine, and alcohol one cared to consume. Aside from the floor show - elaborate private parties for industry professionals were held in the surrounding hotels. Needless to say - the food and beverage industry know how to throw a great party. This NRA party/event was the basis of their prior relationship - social - not work.

 

[daveb]

Let’s examine recent history. Voter registration fraud, completed voter ballots mailed out recently in one state by democrats, etc.

Got sources for that? That's simply opinion unless you back it by legitimate sources.

Anyone remember these same people that hate Cain come to defend Clinton against those false allegations by Flowers, Lewinski, etc.?

Yes, and there are those on the left who didn't believe Clinton, jut as there are some on the right who don't believe Cain. And there were some on the right who immediately (i.e., before any proof) lambasted Clinton, just as there are some on the left who are immediately lambasting Cain.

Even with tapes and Clinton’s “DNA”, they still defended him. With Cain, we only have decade plus old undocumented or discredited claims.

There are actually 2 documented claims, and if they are discredited, perhaps you should support that statement with sources.

 

[daveb]

The more I hear about this - the more it sounds like a failed date - drinks, dinner, and a room upgraded to a suite - over a weekend?

Failed date? Perhaps. It certainly is weird, whatever it is. On one hand, she claims she went to him for help in seeking a job at the urging of her (now) ex-boyfriend who said he [Cain] appeared impressed with her at a prior meeting, so maybe he [Cain] could help her in finding a job (this is paraphrased from the story I heard yesterday on NPR).

On the other, she met with him for drinks in her hotel lobby (yes, nothing wrong with that) then went for dinner with him driving. Perhaps not the best judgement on her part, but then, I've never been to big meetings like that, so maybe it happens all the time, and it's no big deal.

However, saying she didn't file any claim at the time means she made the whle thing up is speculative at best (not saying you did this WhoWee). Part of the psychology of sexual harrassment is that the female frequently is too embarrassed, has feelings she will be blamed, etc. She may have made the whole thing up, but then gain, she may not have. At this point, I think it's too early to tell one way or the other.

 

[WhoWee]

Failed date? Perhaps. It certainly is weird, whatever it is. On one hand, she claims she went to him for help in seeking a job at the urging of her (now) ex-boyfriend who said he [Cain] appeared impressed with her at a prior meeting, so maybe he [Cain] could help her in finding a job (this is paraphrased from the story I heard yesterday on NPR).

On the other, she met with him for drinks in her hotel lobby (yes, nothing wrong with that) then went for dinner with him driving. Perhaps not the best judgement on her part, but then, I've never been to big meetings like that, so maybe it happens all the time, and it's no big deal.

However, saying she didn't file any claim at the time means she made the whle thing up is speculative at best (not saying you did this WhoWee). Part of the psychology of sexual harrassment is that the female frequently is too embarrassed, has feelings she will be blamed, etc. She may have made the whole thing up, but then gain, she may not have. At this point, I think it's too early to tell one way or the other.

I'm not trying to protect Cain - just make sense of the story. From Cain's perspective ala her description of events:

1.) Cain, accuser and her boyfriend party together at the NRA show. She was an employee but not under his direct supervision and with an escort - not ideal but not a problem.
2.) She loses her job a few months later and she contacts Cain - wants to visit him in DC (should have talked specifics on phone)
3.) She takes a nice hotel room (weekend- he should have questioned what else she was planning-any friends in town?) and they decide to have drinks in the lobby (that's ok - their prior relationship was drinking)
4.) Prior to drinks he upgrades her to a suite (might not have cost him anything - Pres of NRA)
5.) He asks "why" she is there - she lost job and wants his help - apparently not to work with him but back in Chicago. (if this is the correct timeline - he should have hit the brakes if he was thinking about a personal affair)
6.) They go to dinner (ok)
7.) They swing by offices after dinner (might be ok?)
8.) Staying in the car to make a pass - very stupid from his perspective if it occurred as she described. If he wanted to make a pass why not go up to his office (the base of his power) or back to the hotel (suite upgrade and privacy)? This would also be the most offensive and disrespectful place to make a pass from her perspective.
9.) Drove her back to hotel and dropped her off - consistent with a nervous response to a failed pass (alternative was feet on pavement).
10.) Apparently the story ends for him - until she showed up at a recent convention and now with Atty Gloria.

 

[daveb]

Sorry if I made it seem like you were defending him - I'm trying to make sense of it too. Then again, I try to make sense of quantum mechanics (my thanks to Feynman for that wonderful quote!)

 

[WhoWee]

Sorry if I made it seem like you were defending him - I'm trying to make sense of it too. Then again, I try to make sense of quantum mechanics (my thanks to Feynman for that wonderful quote!)

No worries - as my AU associates would say.

My guess is politicians everywhere are watching this case - if the new standard is a failed pass 12 years ago?

 

[daveyrocket]

It looks like Cain forgot the basic rules of sexual harassment:
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/258532/

 

[WhoWee]

Apparently this is the recent event the accuser approached Cain at - spoke to him before he took the stage? "Why" is the question at hand.

http://teapartychicago.org/teacon2011

"TeaCon 2011, the first Midwest Tea Party Convention, was held in Schaumburg, Illinois on September 30 and October 1, 2011. The Chicago Tea Party was a proud tea party partner of the event along with the Illinois Tea Party. TeaCon featured Glenn Beck, Andrew Breitbart, Dana Loesch, Steven Crowder, Guy Benson, Ed Morrissey, Republican Presidential Candidate Herman Cain, Congressman Joe Walsh and hundreds of tea party leaders and activists from across the Midwest. "

Why would she approach him (alone) and have a private conversation a few minutes before he took the stage at this event? In interviews, she indicates he recognized her. A radio talk show (witness) said they spoke privately and Cain remained "stone-faced" - just nodded.

Then, a month later, why show up in a news conference with Atty Gloria?

 

[ThinkToday]

Got sources for that? That's simply opinion unless you back it by legitimate sources.



Yes, and there are those on the left who didn't believe Clinton, jut as there are some on the right who don't believe Cain. And there were some on the right who immediately (i.e., before any proof) lambasted Clinton, just as there are some on the left who are immediately lambasting Cain.



There are actually 2 documented claims, and if they are discredited, perhaps you should support that statement with sources.

Sources for mailing out completed ballots can be found in the current news. I don't recall if it was msn.com or foxnews.com that carried the stories of the investigation. Maybe you missed it on the liberal media “news” shows you watch. Voter registration fraud, seriously? Did you watch the news on ACORN and others last election. Did you not know of the high voter turnout for JFK in Chicago…. Cemeteries when he was elected. Try using Google.

lol, "those on the left who didn't believe Clinton". Who? Certainly not in ANY liberal main stream media.

"There are actually 2 documented claims, and if they are discredited, perhaps you should support that statement with sources." <- of what? you do know Clinton left "tracks" on Monica's dress, right? Oh, right, it was planted. As for Flowers et. al., you forget about the tapes she made and those former Clinton adviser Dick Morris made with Bill’s voice?

 

[ThinkToday]

My main problem with this entire thing is that it's so long ago, there is no defense available to Cain. Surveillance footage is long gone. Other witnesses that may have been able to come to his defense are lost. Just too murky, too much she said vs. he said. I've been going to conventions, annual meetings, etc. for 30 plus years. No way in hell I can remember what I did, when, where, and with whom, with or without a drink. There are just too many things going on. On top of that, it's one of the dumbest places for an easily recognizable figure (President of NRA) to go wild. Everyone there knows you. Getting to a "room" unseen by surveillance, other guests, etc., not to mention all the people dropping by your room and calls from people that want to meet with you. On top of that, if she was so uncomfortable as to feel harassed, why keep going to talk to him? Going to that showboat Gloria Allred pretty much smells of publicity stunt (fund raiser) for both.

 

[daveb]

Sources for mailing out completed ballots can be found in the current news. I don't recall if it was msn.com or foxnews.com that carried the stories of the investigation. Maybe you missed it on the liberal media “news” shows you watch. Voter registration fraud, seriously? Did you watch the news on ACORN and others last election. Did you not know of the high voter turnout for JFK in Chicago…. Cemeteries when he was elected. Try using Google.

You made the claim, therefore the onus of proof is upon you, not me.

lol, "those on the left who didn't believe Clinton". Who? Certainly not in ANY liberal main stream media.

I never claimed mainstream media (and frankly, that was over 10 years ago and I imagine any google search would come up empty because of that)

"There are actually 2 documented claims, and if they are discredited, perhaps you should support that statement with sources." <- of what? you do know Clinton left "tracks" on Monica's dress, right? Oh, right, it was planted. As for Flowers et. al., you forget about the tapes she made and those former Clinton adviser Dick Morris made with Bill’s voice?

And what does this have to do with the documented claims? Your diatribes about Clinton are not proof that the documented claims about Cain have been discredited, as you claimed. Again, where is your proof the claims have been discredited?

 

[Proton Soup]

http://www.suntimes.com/8592168-417/sneed-witness-says-cain-accuser-hugged-him-during-tea-party-meeting-a-month-ago.html

◆The encounter: “It looked sort of flirtatious,” said Jacobson. “I mean they were hugging. But she could have been giving him the kiss of death for all I know. I had no idea what they were talking about, but she was inches from his ear.”

 

[lisab]

No worries - as my AU associates would say.

My guess is politicians everywhere are watching this case - if the new standard is a failed pass 12 years ago?

Wasn't he married 12 years ago?

 

[WhoWee]

Cain said he doesn't know her...Romney-Gingrich 2012!IMO - Cain needs to spend 100% of his time focused on lawsuits against everyone that has done damage to him. Again, the truth will set him free.

 

[WhoWee]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/11/0...sharon-bialek-plus-cook-county-court-records/

She lived in the same apartment building as David Axelrod (President Obama's guy)?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/11/08/cain_accuser_lives_in_same_building_as_david_axelrod.html

"Martha MacCallum, FOX News: "One of the things is that you lived at a 505 North Lake Shore Drive apartment, right? This is the same building, it happens to be the same building David Axelrod lives in. Do you know David Axelrod? Ever have any interaction with him at all?

Sharon Bialek, Cain accuser: "I saw him in the gym. I mean -- everybody nods to each other. It is friendly building but I never had any interaction with him.""

 

[phyzguy]

We will never know the truth or falsehood of the claims, but with four women now claiming harassment, two of the women publicly identified, and two of the claims having documented settlements, I suspect the guy is toast. If this joint press conference actually happens, it will be very damning.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_...d-in-press-conference-with-all-cain-accusers/

 

[WhoWee]

We will never know the truth or falsehood of the claims, but with four women now claiming harassment, two of the women publicly identified, and two of the claims having documented settlements, I suspect the guy is toast. If this joint press conference actually happens, it will be very damning.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_...d-in-press-conference-with-all-cain-accusers/

Again, he needs to refocus 100% of his attention on bringing suits. Two of these people broke agreements to speak out. This headline is unbelievable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rman-Cain-is-a-monster-says-second-woman.html

"Herman Cain is a monster, says second woman"

 

[ThinkToday]

Again, he needs to refocus 100% of his attention on bringing suits. Two of these people broke agreements to speak out. This headline is unbelievable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rman-Cain-is-a-monster-says-second-woman.html

"Herman Cain is a monster, says second woman"

A "five figure settlement", lol. That's not a settlement for sexual harassment. The dollars are way too low for a credible case. It's more likely something else. Five figures is more likely disposing of a nuisance suit, e.g. cheaper to settle than fight and deal with bad press. Or, as some have said, severance. You have to wonder why these claims are all coming out now and why each is doing it with a lawyer.

As a public figure, he'd likely lose the case, but he could compel sworn testimony from each woman about the allegations. If it shows they are part of an organized strategy by some on the left, that could be very good. Yep, looser in court, but may be a winner in the public, if it shows political coordination and conspiracy. If the latter is the case, he may win in court.

 

[WhoWee]

A "five figure settlement", lol. That's not a settlement for sexual harassment. The dollars are way too low for a credible case. It's more likely something else. Five figures is more likely disposing of a nuisance suit, e.g. cheaper to settle than fight and deal with bad press. Or, as some have said, severance. You have to wonder why these claims are all coming out now and why each is doing it with a lawyer.

As a public figure, he'd likely lose the case, but he could compel sworn testimony from each woman about the allegations. If it shows they are part of an organized strategy by some on the left, that could be very good. Yep, looser in court, but may be a winner in the public, if it shows political coordination and conspiracy. If the latter is the case, he may win in court.

The NRA is also due whatever award was stipulated in their agreements with these women - at minimum - they have also been damaged.

A legal action by Cain will certainly bring forth the details of who, what, where, when, how, and why these women came forward. I still want to know why accuser number 4 went to the TEACon event to see Cain a month ago?

 

[daveb]

I thought the two who received settlements were still (AFAIK) anonymous, but 1 was seeking permission from the NRA to speak more about it. That's why they're going through lawyers - to make sure they don't break the law by going against the non-disclosure agreements/gag orders.

 

[WhoWee]

I thought the two who received settlements were still (AFAIK) anonymous, but 1 was seeking permission from the NRA to speak more about it. That's why they're going through lawyers - to make sure they don't break the law by going against the non-disclosure agreements/gag orders.

This one was anonymous and had an agreement with the NRA.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/herman-cain-monster-accuser/story?id=14912783#.TrqkovQoExw

"Bennett said he did not want to characterize "what was physical and what was verbal," but that Cain's behavior "qualified as sexual harassment in our opinion." "Mr. Cain knows the specifics," he said. Kraushaar left the NRA after receiving a reported $45,000 settlement."

Her attorney now promises to detail the original complaint - said it wasn't a gesture regarding her height relative to Cain's wife's height.

 

[WhoWee]

A little info on the NRA

http://www.restaurant.org/aboutus/history/

 

[WhoWee]

The NRA press release:

http://www.restaurant.org/pressroom/pressrelease/?ID=2182

 

[phyzguy]

The NRA press release:
http://www.restaurant.org/pressroom/pressrelease/?ID=2182

Regardless of the fact that "Mr. Herman Cain disputed the allegations in the complaint," I for one find it hard to believe that the NRA would pay out $45,000 if they thought the claims were baseless. After all, what would you expect him to say?

 

[skeptic2]

Cain said he doesn't know her...!

Does he not know Karen Kraushaar too?

 

[AlephZero]

I don't understand why the Democrats would want to make this into an issue. Surely they want the GOP to nominate a presidental candidate who is completely unelectable?

Most of the front-runners for that award aren't standing, but Cain is. So let him win the nomination, and them destroy him, if he doesn't spontaneously combust within a couple of weeks anyway.

 

[ThinkToday]

Regardless of the fact that "Mr. Herman Cain disputed the allegations in the complaint," I for one find it hard to believe that the NRA would pay out $45,000 if they thought the claims were baseless. After all, what would you expect him to say?

Ya got to admit this line is interesting. "Notwithstanding the Association’s ongoing policy of maintaining the privacy of all personnel matters, we have advised Mr. Bennett that we are willing to waive the confidentiality of this matter and permit Mr. Bennett’s client to comment. As indicated in Mr. Bennett’s statement, his client prefers not to be further involved with this matter and we will respect her decision. "

She's free to slam Cain with the details, but doesn't... Not even a little curoius why?

As for the $45k settlement, I have a family full of lawyers, judges, etc., it's a cheap out. BTW, I'm not a Cain supporter. I just don't like people that fling BS in the fan to see what sticks on others.

 

[skeptic2]

What have the Democrats been saying? I haven't anything from the Democrats. It all seems to be the media reporting allegations by the self identified victims and the Republicans claiming either that the victims are lying or the Democrats are making this up.

 

[ThinkToday]

Agreed. It won’t be Cain, even before this stuff. Cain is kind of like Howard Dean was in the Demo primary years ago. I suspect it may be Gingrich. I'm not sure Newt could win, but he'd completely clean Obama's clock in any debate like the one between Cain and Gingrich. Obama’s fine with a teleprompter, but Newt is just plain smart. You can disagree with him, but he knows his stuff.

 

[daveb]

Regardless of the fact that "Mr. Herman Cain disputed the allegations in the complaint," I for one find it hard to believe that the NRA would pay out $45,000 if they thought the claims were baseless. After all, what would you expect him to say?

Unfortunately, (IMO) it happens all the time where a lawsuit is settled rather than taken to court, since it's easier to bank ona sure thing (the settlement) for both sides, rather than risk a jury's decision.

Edited to add: And not just sexual harrassment suits - pretty much any personal injury type suit as well.

 

[skeptic2]

Do you think the American people would elect an admitted sex criminal to be president?

Virginia Statute
18.2-366. Adultery and fornication by persons forbidden to marry; incest.

A. Any person who commits adultery or fornication with any person whom he or she is forbidden by law to marry shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor except as provided by subsection B.

 

[Char. Limit]

Do you think the American people would elect an admitted sex criminal to be president?

Yes.

 

[WhoWee]

Apparently, the audience did not like the questions presented at tonight's debate?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/herman-cain-sexual-harassment-debate_n_1085215.html

"To audible boos and groans, CNBC debate host Maria Bartiromo on Wednesday asked GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain the question we'd been girding ourselves for -- his sexual harassment allegations. It's an odd fit for a debate on the economy, and Bartiromo had to couch it in terms of "leadership" and "character" in order to get it in. It only barely did -- the audience was not happy to hear this inquiry coming up."

 

[skeptic2]

I was not referring to Cain but to Gingrich in response to ThinkToday's endorsement.

 

[Proton Soup]

Apparently, the audience did not like the questions presented at tonight's debate?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/herman-cain-sexual-harassment-debate_n_1085215.html

"To audible boos and groans, CNBC debate host Maria Bartiromo on Wednesday asked GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain the question we'd been girding ourselves for -- his sexual harassment allegations. It's an odd fit for a debate on the economy, and Bartiromo had to couch it in terms of "leadership" and "character" in order to get it in. It only barely did -- the audience was not happy to hear this inquiry coming up."

that's a bit hilarious given the obscenely graphic allegations that were hounding Clinton throughout his presidency.