Exit exam news: school board defies state

[0TheSwerve0]

It doesn't matter why they couldn't pass the test as far as the actual reception of a diploma is concerned. If you aren't able to demonstrate a certain level of competency, then too bad, you don't get a diploma. You are not garaunteed one by right. Go back until you manage to demonstrate competency. Period.

Education isn't something one acquires on their own, they need to be given one. If they don't have the proper tools to learn, what good is sending a child back into the same inadequate system going to do? Why not give them better options instead of condemning them to a hopeless situation? btw, I never said anything about those children being entitled to a diploma, I'm addressing the reasons why they are not able to get one.

 

[Pengwuino]

Education isn't something one acquires on their own, they need to be given one. If they don't have the proper tools to learn, what good is sending a child back into the same inadequate system going to do? Why not give them better options instead of condemning them to a hopeless situation?

How does lying to them give them hope and better options? So they can go off and fail in college where they actually PAY for school? Why not just give them a bachelors too while we're at it? You lie once, why not lie some more.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

What do mean lying to them? I suggested fixing the system, which is what I think is the main problem. An even easier option might be to just offer vocational schools and separate tracks when students reach high school, then we won't waste their time. This is what Japan and Germany does, they seem to be doing ok.

 

[Pengwuino]

Giving them a diploma is a lie. You're saying to them and the rest of the world that they have the skills one learns after 4 years of high school education. They don't have that, thus, a lie.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

You should read my previous posts, I don't think you know what you're talking about (shocker )

 

[Pengwuino]

You should read my previous posts, I don't think you know what you're talking about (shocker )

Well I've been on topic... what have you been doing?

 

[0TheSwerve0]

You and Franz have misconstrued what I'm saying. I've been addressing what you've said - that these students are basically lazy idiots.

I don't find it very incredible. Kids just don't care and if they want to be poor and be targets of politicians pandering to them in the future, i don't give a crap. They think they can make it big as a mechanic or a rap star or basketball player or punk music idiot?. Go ahead... god i hate having to pay for these moron's medical bills.

I find that a poorly thought out explanation, and I've posted as to why I think so.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of adults couldn't pass it in the state, given that 75%(ish) of students failed it the first year, IIRC. Doesn't mean its hard, or that they deserve a diploma anyway. It certainly doesn't speak well of california public schools.

Pretty much what I'm trying to say.

 

[Pengwuino]

I find that a poorly thought out explanation, and I've posted as to why I think so.

Let us see what is more correct. Widely seen "experimental" data from pretty much anyone whos ever been in a public school... or a theoretical, illogical, explanation that attempts to artificially remove as much responsibility from kids as possible without any regard as to how improbable and over-exagerated the situations may be? I find it hard that the state with one of the highest funding levels per student is not going to have the money to make it to the top 40 states school districts.

 

[franznietzsche]

You and Franz have misconstrued what I'm saying. I've been addressing what you've said - that these students are basically lazy idiots.

No, you're saying that the students are the victims of a bad education system.

What you haven't clarified (unless I msised it, which is possible I suppose) is whether you think the students failing to demonstrate competency (regardless of the reason) should be given diploma's anyway.

 

[Pengwuino]

Also, has there been any schools in California where more then 50% of the students can't pass the exit exam?

 

[franznietzsche]

Also, has there been any schools in California where more then 50% of the students can't pass the exit exam?

I thought that the initial failure rate was something like 75%. But I may be completely wrong. I can't recall a source at the moment, maybe I can find something...

 

[Pengwuino]

I thought that the initial failure rate was something like 75%. But I may be completely wrong. I can't recall a source at the moment, maybe I can find something...

got it

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2003033876_webexitexam01.html

10% overall. I need to find particular stats

 

[franznietzsche]

got it

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2003033876_webexitexam01.html

10%

Hmm, well I was way off. I'm trying to recall where I heard that, or if maybe it was in reference to one particular school.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Let us see what is more correct. Widely seen "experimental" data from pretty much anyone whos ever been in a public school... or a theoretical, illogical, explanation that attempts to artificially remove as much responsibility from kids as possible without any regard as to how improbable and over-exagerated the situations may be? I find it hard that the state with one of the highest funding levels per student is not going to have the money to make it to the top 40 states school districts.

So because you've attended public school, you know more than someone who has taught in public schools and visited several across the country? Like I said, we don't know for sure what is going on. You leave no room for any explanation but your own opinion. How is the author's or my explanation illogical? Does money not have an impact on quality of education? And I never said quality of education was everything, though I think it is the main element. As for your last statement, neither LYN nor I can decipher it.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

No, you're saying that the students are the victims of a bad education system.

What you haven't clarified (unless I msised it, which is possible I suppose) is whether you think the students failing to demonstrate competency (regardless of the reason) should be given diploma's anyway.

Yes, I am offering an alternate explanation because I think that you offer an inadequate one. Again, I didn't say this was the only issue. I made no comment as to whether or not these students should get diplomas. I'm trying to show that that question ignores the reason why (the main issue I think) the students aren't qualified to get them. I thought you were being completely unfair, but I guess I did derail the thread. Seems logical comments should be saved for other forums...

 

[Pengwuino]

Whoa, i just saw an article showing the STAR testing results for 05. Asians are the best at the english language. ASIANS outscored white people in the english language testing. So foreigners are the top english scorers yet when it comes to this test, its an excusable problem when spanish speakers can't pass the english exam?

 

[franznietzsche]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/12/11/MN191373.DTL

Reference here saying that in schools with high percentages of uncredentialed teachers, failure rates were as high as 75% on the math portion. May or may not have been what I was thinkg of.

 

[franznietzsche]

Whoa, i just saw an article showing the STAR testing results for 05. Asians are the best at the english language. ASIANS outscored white people in the english language testing. So foreigners are the top english scorers yet when it comes to this test, its an excusable problem when spanish speakers can't pass the english exam?

Asian doesn't mean foreigner. It means ethnically asian. Not the same.

 

[Pengwuino]

So because you've attended public school, you know more than someone who has taught in public schools and visited several across the country? Like I said, we don't know for sure what is going on. You leave no room for any explanation but your own opinion. How is the author's or my explanation illogical? Does money not have an impact on quality of education? And I never said quality of education was everything, though I think it is the main element. As for your last statement, neither LYN nor I can decipher it.

Maybe you didnt pass the reading comprehension test if 2 obvious words being left out threw you so far off track

A visit means nothing, teachers are normally oblivious to what really goes on in high schools as well. They are also quite naive to tell the truth. Kids can BS a teacher like you wouldn't believe! And of course money has an impact on education which raises hte point as to why does a state with soooooooooo much money being pumped into education come in near last place when they test students? And how do people in poor schools pass at all if they are all on fair ground?

 

[franznietzsche]

Yes, I am offering an alternate explanation because I think that you offer an inadequate one.

Probably because I didn't intend to offer any explanation. I don't pretend to be able to explain things I'm not qualified to comment on. I do want to be very clear though, that if you can't demonstrate competency, then you shouldn't get the diploma, period. Regardless of if it was fair. The fairness of the education system is a separate issue.

Again, I didn't say this was the only issue. I made no comment as to whether or not these students should get diplomas. I'm trying to show that that question ignores the reason why (the main issue I think) the students aren't qualified to get them. I thought you were being completely unfair, but I guess I did derail the thread. Seems logical comments should be saved for other forums...

The why is a separate issue. I recognize that, and I'm intentionally not directly addressing it, as it was not the issue of this thread. The issue was whether or not someone who cannot demonstrate the competency that the diploma is meant to recognize should be given one anyway. I claim they should not, otherwise the diploma is a meaningless piece of paper.

 

[Pengwuino]

Asian doesn't mean foreigner. It means ethnically asian. Not the same.

i guess i did phrase that a weeeee bit stupidly

 

[franznietzsche]

i guess i did phrase that a weeeee bit stupidly

Just a weee bit yes.

 

[Chi Meson]

Please don't ruin my day

First people complain high school graduates can't read and then they complain when they try to stop them from getting diplomas when they can't read... you can't win.

Thank God someone else noticed this!

People complain that kids aren't given enough homework, then people complain that kids have too much homework.

The paradoxes go on and on.

 

[Chi Meson]

Regarding the preceding posts that are starting to smoke:
I've said this before, that as a teacher I fully endorse the concept of linking a teacher's salerey to their performance. But as noted above, such asessment is difficult and it would require highly paid full-time asessors who would in turn require asessors.

Linking a teachers pay to the performance of students would ensure that certain areas will only get the worst teachers. What if a dentist was paid according to the condition of the teeth of his/her patients?

The most severe problems are in isolated pockets. The quickest remedy within these troubled pockets would be to offer extra stipends to teachers with superior qualifications, and limit class sizes to 15 or less within these troubled pockets, and extend school days until 5:00 (or longer) to include excercise, dinner, and supervised study periods.

The problems lie mostly with the micro-societies, that's where we need to aim. This would cost a lot of money, obviously, but it's still cheaper than incarceration.

 

[rcgldr]

What if a dentist was paid according to the condition of the teeth of his/her patients?

Then the two dentists in all of England would leave.

 

[franznietzsche]

Then the two dentists in all of England would leave.

Then the whole country would really be screwed.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Probably because I didn't intend to offer any explanation. I don't pretend to be able to explain things I'm not qualified to comment on. I do want to be very clear though, that if you can't demonstrate competency, then you shouldn't get the diploma, period. Regardless of if it was fair. The fairness of the education system is a separate issue.



The why is a separate issue. I recognize that, and I'm intentionally not directly addressing it, as it was not the issue of this thread. The issue was whether or not someone who cannot demonstrate the competency that the diploma is meant to recognize should be given one anyway. I claim they should not, otherwise the diploma is a meaningless piece of paper.

I do agree with you about the diploma, no reason to give one if they don't earn it. But the passing comments made were unfair and dismissive. Just shows our general attitude towards people who don't do as well - that it's their own fault and they are inferior. This isn't a trivial matter.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Maybe you didnt pass the reading comprehension test if 2 obvious words being left out threw you so far off track

A visit means nothing, teachers are normally oblivious to what really goes on in high schools as well. They are also quite naive to tell the truth. Kids can BS a teacher like you wouldn't believe! And of course money has an impact on education which raises hte point as to why does a state with soooooooooo much money being pumped into education come in near last place when they test students? And how do people in poor schools pass at all if they are all on fair ground?

When he visited the ESL school, there were classrooms full of students with no teachers. It was obvious that the school was inadequate. Are you saying those kids are lying or that teacher quality doesn't matter? Or are these just pearls of wisdom from your own experience? As for the money matter, a lot of it doesn't even go to school use because it gets tied up in bureaucracy. When it finally does, the administration spends it on improving basic necessities and playing catch up: improving building quality for one. Plus, not all schools receive equal funding. I agree, it is a stupid system that doesn't make sense.

Students that attend poor schools can pass for several reasons: they are intelligent and can teach themselves (not everyone can), the school has low standards so they are good enough in that situation, teachers falsify grades so they won't get fired.

 

[ray b]

use the GED test ,
if the students can't pass it after 12 years of school, NO DIPLOMA
same for higher learning can't pass the CLEP, NO CREDIT for the class
all states have tests for lawyers for example why should anyone get a
Dr of law if they can't pass the bar exam??

I would junk senority as a base for pay and use STUDENT surveys
to rate the better or worse teachers plus test results
the kids know who are the good or bad teachers
use tests and student surveys to get the poor teachers into another line of work

 

[Gokul43201]

Only indirectly related, but wow!

School pupils in Liberia have been threatened with a possible prison sentence if they cheat in their exams.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5048574.stm

 

[Math Is Hard]

Only indirectly related, but wow!

Yow! They don't mess around!

 

[Lisa!]

Only indirectly related, but wow!



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5048574.stm

eH, I guess they better turn countries to a big prison!

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Update

"It's graduation time in California high schools, and 'certificate' time for the 47,000 students who did NOT pass the state's new high school exit exam. That's creating some awkwardness at commencement ceremonies."

 

[scorpa]

I can't believe those practice questions that were posted. What a complete joke! We had covered everything on that by grade 7 and this is showing up on a high school exit exam? Personally I don't think students who can't pass the exam deserve the diploma, not passing the exam usually is a result of not working hard enough (or at all in most cases). I don't see why students who don't work hard or take anything seriously should graduate like the students who work hard at everything they have done do.