Exploring the Moon: Then and Now

[Phobos]

Men is space are a wasteful extravagance which impede the true purpose of going to space in the first place.

Now this could make for an interesting debate. Care to start a new topic? (no war-of-the-sexes jokes though)

 

[Entropy]

Europeans have this annoying habit of being 'know it alls'. According to them, they are the cradle of civilization and invented everything.

Yep, but most Americans think they are the rulers of the world.

 

[Chronos]

Yep, but most Americans think they are the rulers of the world.

Hehe, aint easy to slide a little sarcasm by people here. Due to cultural difference some myths play better on the continent and some myths play better in the US. There is no shortage of American mythology and it is no less amusing or annoying than the continental variety.

 

[Phobos]

Was wondering the purpose of putting mirrors on the moon and why didnt they build a machine with solar pannels for energy supply. And do diff kind of experiments ( don't know what ) we could still be talking to this machine today.

Here's one such experiment they left behind...certainly wasn't meant to last 30+ years though.
http://ares.jsc.nasa.gov/HumanExplore/Exploration/EXLibrary/docs/ApolloCat/Part1/ALSEP.htm

(the mirrors previously mentioned are still useful though!)

 

[Phobos]

Let's keep the cultural/nationalism mudslinging to a minimum. Unless it's moon-mud.

 

[russ_watters]

Now this could make for an interesting debate. Care to start a new topic?

The most prominent proponent of this is Robert Park, who testified before Congress that "The space station [and by extension, manned spaceflight itself] stands as the greatest single obstacle to the continued exploration of space." The full text: http://www.nasawatch.com/congress/04.09.97.park.html

 

[Integral]

The most prominent proponen of this is Robert Park, who testified before Congress that "The space station [and by extension, manned spaceflight itself] stands as the greatest single obstacle to the continued exploration of space." The full text: http://www.nasawatch.com/congress/04.09.97.park.html

Wow! not only does he substantiate every point I mentioned, he adds more issues. What we need to know, has been learned, there is no advantage to micro gravity, and no economic benefits from MANNED space missions.

The best thing we could do is sell ISS to a commercial developer for a exotic vacation resort. With the extra spice of possibility of major mutation due to excess hard radiation of any children produced. Sounds grand... I'll pass.

 

[bozo the clown]

and no economic benefits from MANNED space missions.

.

no not yet, but there never will be if we do not do anything, from your posts integral would appear your not a big space exploration fan.

Now if we do not spend that money through space endervours where would it go? building more weapons perhaps, billions of dollars policing more of the world, maybe we should; instead of going to Mars invade N.Korea and take their nukes and nerve gas off them.

Of course i would rarther have the money saved from space go into tax refunds, but I know this would never happen so i'd rather see it go into the wonders of space than into the spilling of blood.

 

[Entropy]

no not yet, but there never will be if we do not do anything, from your posts integral would appear your not a big space exploration fan.

Now if we do not spend that money through space endervours where would it go? building more weapons perhaps, billions of dollars policing more of the world, maybe we should; instead of going to Mars invade N.Korea and take their nukes and nerve gas off them.

Of course i would rarther have the money saved from space go into tax refunds, but I know this would never happen so i'd rather see it go into the wonders of space than into the spilling of blood.

You should noticed that Integral said "MANNED" missions. That still leaves robots/probes to do all the data gathering or building or what not in space. Read more carefully before you start a rant.

 

[bozo the clown]

im not starting a rant i just got the feeling from integrals earlier posts that he feels there is too much money being spent on space exploration read more posts entropy before you jump to conclusions.

 

[Chronos]

Probes are clearly more practical and efficient. Forty years ago it was necessary to put people into space simply because the level of understanding and technology was not up to the task to execute those missions. That is no longer true. We can now put robotic explorers on Mars and orbital probes around Saturn for pennies to the millions it would cost to send people there. We should abandon the outdated mindset of manned missions. The quest should be for knowledge, not glory or pride.

 

[bozo the clown]

no man must come first we cannot give into the machines !

 

[Integral]

Bozo,
The way I see it, it is YOU who is not interested in exploring the solar system, you only care about glory and cowboy heroics, not science. Did you read the link given by Russ? Please do. It was written for congressmen so even a grade schooler should be able to read and understand it.

I am all for exploration of the solar system and beyond. But we must do it efficiently and wisely. There is much to learn and many beneficial technological advances will need to be made to achieve even modest goals. The advances will be in remote sensing and controls, this type of technology can have a significant effect on our lives though improved manufacture techniques and vehicle safety. (Just a couple of examples off the top of my head). Sending a man into space is not necessary to accomplish any meaningful science. If you read the link, it is stated that there are a large number of both physical and life scientist who share this opinion. Since we have had men in space nearly continuously for the last 20yrs we are well familiar with low gravity environment. The fact is in the larger scheme of things the surface of the Earth IS A LOW GRAVITY ENVIRONMENT, we gain nothing by going into space.

As I have said before we must use our available resources to learn as much as possible. It is not clear to me that the solution to our major problems lie in outer space. If we waste resources on a wild goose chase (ie man on Mars) we may well fall short of a solution to the real problems.

We need a inexhaustible source of cheap energy, given that all other problems will take care of themselves.

 

[Integral]

no man must come first we cannot give into the machines !

LOL, Perhaps you should trade in your science fiction books for science fact!

 

[Phobos]

One thing to be said for manned missions...it inspires non-scientists' interest in science & the space program (y'know, the folks who are footing much of the bill). In the immortal words of Lockheed Martin (at least, by their new ad execs)..."To be human is to explore."

Of course, I realize/agree that much more can be accomplished with robotic missions at this stage in our space technology. But a little glory & pride can be a great motivator too.

 

[bozo the clown]

Sending a man into space is not necessary to accomplish any meaningful science.

you do not think the spacestation is meaningful science ??

 

[russ_watters]

im not starting a rant i just got the feeling from integrals earlier posts that he feels there is too much money being spent on space exploration read more posts entropy before you jump to conclusions.

I pretty much share Integral's (and Dr. Park's) opinion, and you missed the point completely (as already mentioned). Integral's capitalization of the word "MANNED" was already pointed out, but let me post for you a quote from the link (which you clearly didn't read):

It is not their view or mine that space exploration or research should be curtailed. On the contrary the opportunities for scientific discovery in the space program have never been greater. There is, however, almost universal concern among physicists that the priorities of the space program are seriously misplaced. Specifically, it is the official view of the American Physical Society that scientific justification is lacking for a permanently manned space station in Earth orbit.

Is that any clearer?

Now, this begs the question: where should the funding go? How about this: http://origins.jpl.nasa.gov/ . Its one of the programs on the block due to Bush's ill-advised Mars initiative. IMO, its the single most important program NASA has - and it doesn't involve any manned missions (except maybe to launch the components).

edit:

you do not think the spacestation is meaningful science ??

Sigh. Are you reading anything we're posting/linking here? Yes, that is our position. If you disagree, there are a good half-dozen points made (which you have thus far ignored) that you can argue against.

 

[russ_watters]

One thing to be said for manned missions...it inspires non-scientists' interest in science & the space program (y'know, the folks who are footing much of the bill). In the immortal words of Lockheed Martin (at least, by their new ad execs)..."To be human is to explore."

Of course, I realize/agree that much more can be accomplished with robotic missions at this stage in our space technology. But a little glory & pride can be a great motivator too.

And that is, of course, the catch-22 to all of this. The only way around it (maybe) is through some pretty spectacular robot missions. The Mars rovers were good (what did they get, a billion hits on the website?), but how 'bout a Europa rover?

 

[bozo the clown]

What I think is a waste of money are robotic missions costing billions of dollars piddling around the solar system probing planets that have absolutely no use to us. I mean who cares about the size of the debris in Saturn's rings.
If anything one should at least concentrate the money regarding Europa for a robotic mission.

According to NASA we will be going back to the moon using new craft that will be a lot more econmical. I was not born in 69 to see moon landing but I shall see the next one.
Bring it on.

 

[Entropy]

What I think is a waste of money are robotic missions costing billions of dollars piddling around the solar system probing planets that have absolutely no use to us. I mean who cares about the size of the debris in Saturn's rings.
If anything one should at least concentrate the money regarding Europa for a robotic mission.

I do. We hardly understand how Saturn's rings and its 30+ moons are able to keep there orbit around the planet. If we can figure out how all these object have come to a stable orbit in this gravitational mess we could improve satellites, spacecraft landings/launchings, and learn about the nature of gravity itself.

Look NASA has good reasons for doing certain missions. Its not just "hey let's send a giant camera into space and take some pretty pictures!" Read up on some of NASA's current missions you have questions about and I think you'll find a scientific backing for it.

 

[bozo the clown]

urm i think our current understanding of gravity out weighs working out the orbitals of Saturn, cassini is simply passing Saturn cause it may as well as part of its journey its discoveries regrading Saturn are just to satisfy the planet enthusiasts.

 

[russ_watters]

What I think is a waste of money are...

So what do you think we should do and what benefit would it have?

According to NASA we will be going back to the moon using new craft that will be a lot more econmical.

If we were to go back to the moon, the craft could be more economical. But so what? Why go back to the moon?

 

[Entropy]

No your wrong. Maybe you should research it a little. We do not know how the rings of Saturn or some of it's moons mantain there orbits.

 

[Integral]

you do not think the spacestation is meaningful science ??

According to Dr. Park, everything that can be learning on the SSI has been learned. We have 20 yrs of data on the response of the human body to low gravity environments. Do you really think that there is any benifit to be had from 30yrs of data?

It is a shame that you can not read and respond objectivly to the infromation you are beening provided. So you think that I am simply anti space exploration..Period. This is simpy not the case. I have developed my views based on years of reading and my education. In my youth, I lived every minute of the Mercury, Gemni and Apollo programs, I watched and followed the development and early flights of the Shuttle (BTW, my older brother was part of the devleopment of some parts of Shuttle water recirculation systems). So I have followed manned space flights from the start, and even had some dreams of becoming a Mission specilist aboard the shuttle. My opinons are not blindly held nor have I always held them, they have been formed based on SCIENTIFIC fact. It is not an easy thing to drop deeply loved opinions, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

 

[bozo the clown]

I have read the links and all these posts and I completely understand your point of views and on some parts I agree i.e when you mention inexhaustable energy supplies.
But I say to you, have you not spent money yourself on something in the pursuit of interest and wonder when you could have spent that money on something more productive.
By returning to the Moon then Mars we will procudce new technology that may benefit us in the long run it will be for me a fascinating spectacle, like I said earlier we can use money from the 'policeman of the world fund' to finance it.
entropy as for the garbage floating around Saturn it works on the same principals as garbage floating around any other planet does it not ?

 

[Entropy]

Alright bozo, it seems to are completely inept to the point where you can do your own research. You don't even need to leave your computer. Go to google and type in "saturn's rings." BAM! Theres you're material.

http://ringmaster.arc.nasa.gov/saturn/saturn.html

The rings show a tremendous amount of structure on all scales; some of this structure is related to gravitational perturbations by Saturn's many moons, but much of it remains unexplained.

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/saturnrings.htm

Much of the elaborate structure of the rings is due to gravitational effects of nearby satellites. This phenomenon is demonstrated by the relationship between the F-ring and two small moons Prometheus and Pandora that shepherd the ring material. The F-ring shows a complex structure made up of two narrow, braided, bright rings along which "knots" are visible. Scientists speculate that the knots may be clumps of ring material, or mini moons.
In the mid 1980s Dr. Jeff Cuzzi noticed a wavy pattern in the ring material on both sides of the Encke gap. It was suggested that an unseen asteroid-sized moon in the gap caused the disturbance. Dr. Mark Showalter further analyzed the disturbance and used this "moonlet wake" pattern that resembled a motorboat wake, to determine the position and mass of the unseen body. The amplitude of the waves, he said suggested the mass of the unobserved object and the wavelength of the ripples revealed the moon's possible position. Using this mathematical model, Dr. Showalter was able to predict which Voyager images the moon would be in. In 1990 Dr. Showalter's work paid off and Pan was discovered within the Encke gap.

You see things aren't always so simple. When you have 30+ moons and those rings interacting the gravitational fields become complex and requires observation. See we don't know how Saturn rings mantain there orbits. You see just do a LITTLE research before you just assume things and go around acting like you know it all.

 

[Chronos]

Be nice. The question was innocent. Bozo is just trying to understand and participate in the conversation. My turn. We have limited [very limited] resources to spend to test theories and acquire new knowledge. People are very expensive cargo in space. They are fat and need life support. Machines do not. People do not cry when machines cease to function... unless you still have payments to make

 

[bozo the clown]

hmm interesting bout those rings entropy maybe its not gravity, one explanation could be likened to a hula hoop dancer the dancer being saturn and the rings being the hoop.

 

[selfAdjoint]

The hula hoop motion is determined by gravity and anglular motion. The angular motion is induced by couples induced by coordinated hip motions. Saturn has gravity and angular motion, but no hips.

 

[Phobos]

To all - - Let's keep this discussion a little more civil, please.

What I think is a waste of money are robotic missions costing billions of dollars piddling around the solar system probing planets that have absolutely no use to us.

The gets into a debate of the practicality of pure research. Some people will argue that scientific research should only be conducted if there is a clear economic/health/etc. benefit. Others will argue that pure research is valuable in that it increases the overall body of scientific knowledge (a powerful, enabling thing) plus it can produce unexpected, practical benefits (e.g., new or spinoff technologies).

Understanding the other planets does have a use for us...it helps us understand our own planet. (I recommend starting a new topic if you want to pursue this point.)

I mean who cares about the size of the debris in Saturn's rings.

Certainly space enthusiasts, like the people in this forum, love this kind of stuff.

If anything one should at least concentrate the money regarding Europa for a robotic mission.

I think we all agree that a Europa mission is in order!

I think we all agree that a space program is good. The points being presented to you are simply that a bigger space program is possible when it is robotic (more science can be done). Given the huge expenses of a space program, it becomes necessary to closely examine the rationale for making something a manned or robotic mission.

I, for one, would love to see the first manned mission to Mars occur in my lifetime. The very idea is exciting. But I'm not really willing to sacrifice all the other great scientific programs to do so. Anyone want to triple NASA's funding?

 

[Entropy]

Anyone want to triple NASA's funding?

Hell I say increase it 10 fold! Scrap some of are nuclear subs. Like we need to have a boat able to nuking half the world.

 

[berty]

Lacking imagination

[QUOTE When some reason is found, then start sending humans...
So mere curiosity is not enough then?

I doubt that any real reason for Humans in space will ever be found...
Ever? Oh ye unimaginative one...!

Though a low gravity resort on the moon would be a very interesting change of pace for the rich and famous.
I note a not so subtle dig at those who are richer and more success ful than yourself?
[/QUOTE]

 

[bozo the clown]

mm no posts for this in last few days is this the end, well all good things come to an end I guess.

 

[Rader]

Moon property

mm no posts for this in last few days is this the end, well all good things come to an end I guess.

I just skimmed through this thread and it appears no one really knows why Buzz Aldrins hearbeat went to 160 beats per second, while collecting 4pounds of rocks in real weight. The reason contains the mystery, why we went to the moon.

I just consulted google. There use to be one realestate selling land on the moon now there is a whole bunch of them. The first link was the first.
http://www.moonshop.com/
http://www.buylandonthemoon.com/
http://www.moonestates.com/index.asp
http://www.planetaryinvestments.com/
http://www.lunarlandowner.com/

 

[enigma]

And if you think that's a good investment, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you!

Pan Am offered payed flights to the moon in 1970. Several hundred people spent tens of thousands of dollars each for the opportunity. They're still waiting for a ticket...