Faith In Religon vs Faith in Science

[honestrosewater]

The thing is that a standard of justification applies to all beliefs, whether their objects are "scientific" or "religious". For example, if direct observation is a justification for belief, and someone has directly observed X, they are justified in believing X, whether X is the risen sun or the risen Son.
And since a standard of justification applies to all beliefs, if we want to show a difference between scientific and religious belief, we must compare their standards of justification. In science, the standards of justification are expounded in the scientific method. Is there a "religious method" that serves the same function in religion as the scientific method serves in science?

BTW, simply defining "religious belief" as "not scientific belief" doesn't show an actual difference between them, it just assumes one by definition and won't lead us anywhere but in circles.

 

[phoenixthoth]

While I agree that there is a certain amount of faith in Science it is of a much different sort of faith then religious faith. For Science I must have some faith that my existence and the existence of the universe has some validity. I must have faith that the universe will continue to work tomorrow as it did yesterday. So far my believing or not believed that a object will fall to the ground with constant acceleration has had no effect. It appears that the fundamental laws of the universe work whether we believed in them or not. So for science I must have faith that repeatable physical observations have meaning.

Religious faith on the other hand is faith in unverifiable and unobservable assumptions. Religion is all about the unobservable, Physics is about the observable. Trouble arise when concepts which traditionally have been considered unobservable and explainable only with religious faith become observable and explainable through science.

Euclid's axioms are observable or not? Can you ever observe a line, circle, point, etc? If a line is not observable (and it isn't), are you saying faith in religion is the same as faith in mathematics? I don't think you're saying that but I thought I'd like to give you a good belly laugh.

So if I interpret you correctly, the two faiths are different. One is a faith in falsifiable claims and the other is a faith in non-falsifiable claims?

Why do you think that religion involves unverifiable and unobservable assumptions? And why do you call them assumptions rather than conclusions? I mean, can you back this statement up that they're assumptions and they're unverifiable? Can you prove they're unverifiable? I hope so otherwise some mentor might come along to delete your post; oh, wait, that's only done when a mentor disagrees with what is written but can't come up with a counterargument. j/k

Now if you assume that there is an unobservable pink elephant living on Alpha Centauri (or Santa Claus), key part of the assumption being that it's unobservable, then you can't use science to prove this PE exists.

It seems to me you are assuming that only what is observable is verifiable. Well, have you ever seen an electron? I bet the answer is no but you have seen things that imply an electron exists, right? Is an electron observable? I question what you mean by observable.

However, to suggest that in religion the claims are about the unobservable is a gross misunderstanding of it IMO. Consider so called religious experiences or as I would prefer to call them spiritual experiences. If one were to witness God, what would one expect it to be like?

I have a friend who claims to have "seen God", ie, observed God. She had a powerful experience, like a NDE, that changed her life. Now was it God she observed or was that just , well, something else? How do you know?

You might as well ask me to prove that when I'm talking to my friend Marc, that I am actually talking to Marc. How can I prove the voice on the phone belongs to Marc or is even human? Likewise, how can I prove I observe God? I can't. Maybe you can.

So I have faith that what I and others have observed is God and I have faith that when I talk to Marc I am talking to Marc. But I do not believe that the claims made by religion are unobservable. At least not all of them.

And since the claims made by religion are observable, at least some of them, your rationale would then equate the two kinds of faith.

 

[honestrosewater]

Well, Integral can respond for themselves ( is Integral a him or her?) I just have a few quick questions.
How are others supposed to verify your statement, or how can they reproduce your experience for themselves? Presumably, science can give detailed instructions on how to detect an electron- you follow the instructions, and you can detect an electron for yourself. Same goes for math and logic; If you follow the instructions, you can prove 1+1=2 for yourself. Same goes for at least some religions; If you follow the instructions, you can experience some religious object for yourself. So what if someone has followed the instructions, but they don't detect or prove or experience? How do science, logic, and religion handle that situation?

Edit: I'm just getting all the "instructions," to line up. I am SO cool.

 

[misogynisticfeminist]

I would like to make a statement which I am not too sure about and might be wrong but if it is somewhat valid, at least it would start some sort of discussion.

In the case of energy conservation, it is a fundamental principle in physics, but are we taking it on faith? As in, there are certain phenomena which obey conservation laws, but what about those which don't (not really energy time uncertainty thing because energy is conserved throughout) and we don't know what they really are?

So, are we taking COE by faith?

 

[Hurkyl]

So what if someone has followed the instructions, but they don't detect or prove or experience? How do science, logic, and religion handle that situation?

And, before you respond to this, consider how your answer applies to other formally similar situations. For example, experincing winning the lotto.

 

[phoenixthoth]

The observation of said things (eg the experience of winning the lottery and God) is at first glance rare even when the intstructions are followed.

Here's what my friend did before she had that particular religious experience which was a NDE. She said, "'god', if you don't show yourself to me, I'm going to kill myself," and she, being quite depressed, actually may have meant it. Then the religious experience followed.

I have never tried that nor will I nor do I suggest you do so.

But if you do and you don't have a religious experience, then what? I would say that, for some reason I do not know, the religious experience is rare to start with not unlike winning the lottery.

However, enough people have "won the lottery" so that I don't think Integral is correct when he says the claims are unobservable. I will grant that observing God is rare, it seems, but it is also rare to observe an electron for what percent of the population has observed one?

 

[Les Sleeth]

How are others supposed to verify your statement, or how can they reproduce your experience for themselves? Presumably, science can give detailed instructions on how to detect an electron- you follow the instructions, and you can detect an electron for yourself. Same goes for math and logic; If you follow the instructions, you can prove 1+1=2 for yourself. Same goes for at least some religions; If you follow the instructions, you can experience some religious object for yourself. So what if someone has followed the instructions, but they don't detect or prove or experience? How do science, logic, and religion handle that situation?

I think there are a couple of issues: the ability to recognize correct instructions and one's predilections.

If one is instructed improperly, then one might dedicatedly practice incorrect instructions forever and get nowhere. I've seen, for example, people practice racquetball for many hours. When they complain they aren't improving yet practicing so much, the better players will say "yes, but you aren't practicing correctly, and so you are actually reinforcing all your bad habits." Often they will stubbornly continue their own way anyway and continue to improve at bad habits.

Something along these lines that seems relevant was a link http://www.lingsoft.fi/~reriksso/competence.html Tom posted in another thread about the bliss of incompetence. The opening paragraphs claim:

There are many incompetent people in the world. But a Cornell University study has shown that most incompetent people do not know that they are incompetent.

People who do things badly, according to David A. Dunning, a professor of psychology at Cornell, are usually supremely confident of their abilities -- more confident, in fact, than people who do things well.

One reason that the ignorant also tend to be the blissfully self-assured, the researchers believe, is that the skills required for competence often are the same skills necessary to recognize competence.

Since they don't recognize they are incompetent, they also don't know they are unqualified to teach others. And then, if not many people really know what the correct instructions are, they don't know how to chose an instructor. So just because there are lots of instructors, or because one has an instructor, doesn't mean someone is following the correct instructions.

The other issue, that of one's predilections, is also important. I personally do not "enjoy" math beyond what I need to use in my everyday life. I did well in it in school, but I couldn't wait to get to classes which to me were more concrete (say, history). We tend to enjoy what we naturally excel at, which means we will return to it and apply ourselves. So even if someone receives perfect instructions it doesn't mean they are going to apply themselves in such a way that it produces results. One can't fault the instructions in such a case.

In terms of faith in science and religion, I don't believe there is any difference in the faith principles. I have faith in science because it seems to "work" every time it is properly applied to the proper circumstances. To me, that is the basis of faith (in a practice) . . . if something works.

Religion, that is a tough one because for lots of people it works on a personal level. Some anthropologists, for instance, might say it "works" because it helps people have morals, be calmer, do good works, etc. But that's not all religion claims it is supposed to do for people. How does it "work" for getting people to God (or whatever term one prefers . . . for me it's "something more")? Personally, religion has never worked for me in the slightest that way. But the meditation I practice has. So I don't have faith in religion because it hasn't worked, and I do have faith in a specific type of meditation (when practiced correctly).