Fate of Chernobyl's vehicle graveyard

[nikkkom]

"The flame was higher than the stack"

 

[mheslep]

Baffling as to why someone would approach a reactor accident within a 100 meters unless they were emergency response.

 

[Salvador]

Not sure about the eyewitness from nikkkoms post but the emergency teams were just as unprotected as he was.If I'm correct all of the firefighters from that night died within weeks.And I bet their death was slow and painful.No one actually knew what the heck just had happened.maybe just the reactor crew and even they were probably in a state of shock.But from the other side the firefighters had no time to prepare anyways even if someone told them that this is a kamikaze mission.
the fire was raging and they had no time , it might have easily burnt up unit 3 which was separated by a thick wall from unit 4, imagine the fallout then if both RBMK units went up in smoke.
It's somehow a miracle that only unit 4 got obliterated , I wonder would the blast have been any stronger or the reactor lid thrown sideways instead of right up things could have went differently.
But I assume the fire and the flames must have been gigantic in size because many people came out in the night and watched towards the reactor as it burned through the night , after all the city was only 3km away so the scenery was probably worth a million action movies, sadly most of the watchers got quite lethal doses of radiation.

 

[mheslep]

...
If the flame really was that high it deserves to be in the guiness world records as the highest man made flame ever or even highest natural flame ever , ...

170 M a record? Forest fires throw up flames 200M. And then there are the man made fires n chemical explosions.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00049158.1984.10676001?journalCode=tfor20
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-33924501

The two explosions, seconds apart, caused a fireball visible from space and a shockwave that damaged buildings within a 2km radius (1.5 miles). The second of the blasts was the equivalent of 21 tonnes of TNT.

 

[Salvador]

I guess I had a weak idea of height comparisons in my head but 170m seemed rather huge , well i haven't seen a large fire in my life so it's hard to imagine a forest fire being 60 stories above the actual forest because 200m is about a 50/60 story building, and that's pretty damn high for a flame originating from a pile of loosely packed wood.

I remember reading about the China chemical explosions , although never though about the flame height but seems they were massive.
Well thanks for pointing out.

 

[mheslep]

I guess I had a weak idea of height comparisons in my head but 170m seemed rather huge , well i haven't seen a large fire in my life so it's hard to imagine a forest fire being 60 stories above the actual forest because 200m is about a 50/60 story building, and that's pretty damn high for a flame originating from a pile of loosely packed wood...

Tens of thousands of tons of loosely packed wood burning simultaneously, and an unlimited supply of oxygen.

Back on topic, a graphite fire would be difficult to sustain given the temperatures required, but a multi GW run away RBMK obviously was capable of doing so, and there were many tons of graphite.

 

[Salvador]

Probably so , a reactor having 1693 uranium fuel channels , all of which had no neutron moderation at the end except for the very graphite they were still partially sitting in must have made a heat source large enough to melt any substance known to man and burn things that normally don't burn , which is the only way to explain a flame that reaches beyond the reactor chimney given that the chimney itself is on top of the roof.
Also explains how reinforced concrete and metal together with everything else formed a lava which melted through layers of concrete to finally cool down both in itself and with the vast cooling efforts by the emergency teams.

 

[nikkkom]

Back on topic, a graphite fire would be difficult to sustain given the temperatures required, but a multi GW run away RBMK obviously was capable of doing so, and there were many tons of graphite.

Graphite is only difficult to ignite. When it's already burning, it burns about as easily as coal.

Coal is easier to light because it has some volatiles in it.

 

[nikkkom]

Back on topic - fate of Chernobyl's vehicle graveyard.

Ukrainian Facebook today gave me one answer. Yuriy Kvatkovsky. He was the head of Kiev regional police department. And despite his modest public servant salary, he owns a house of more than 300 m^2, a flat, 2 hectares of land, and other real estate. His family owns seven cars.

Articles with allegations that he made money to buy all this exactly on the subject we discuss here (plundering radioactive "resources" from the Zone):

http://prokurorska-pravda.today/news/prokuroryi-peschanyih-karerov-zamglavyi-gpu-guzyir-zamenil-danilenko-na-meste-kryishi-dlya-nezakonnyih-dobyitchikov-peska--prochie-pesochnyie-zakonniki/

http://politrada.com/news/mentovski...yatkovskiy-stal-prokurorom-luganskoy-oblasti/

Photo:

 

[Salvador]

For the mostly western audience reading and participating in this forums, such actions would seem criminal and wrong but for you and also me who have endured many different regimes and been part of the most ambitious plan, I'd say in history of mankind, this is no wonder.Things like these have happened in my country too , only we kind of moved forward faster than Ukraine , joined the EU etc.Not to say that EU is only paradise ofcorse not , but there have been changes in thinking in the last quarter of a century.

Actually corruption happens in pretty much all the world even developed western countries , the only difference is that in places like US and elsewhere those who want to earn some huge illegal dollars atleast go through some legal procedures and have much more backpressure for their actions , in eastern parts of the world there is a lack of this backpressure because those countries haven't gone through hundreds of years of democracy building or maybe their mentality differs.As for the scrap metal , first of all I don't think this man or any other got all his money from it , it's not that worthy if you have ever been involved with metals you would know.
Also even if they took it they had to clean it , because metal circles around and you can;t simply hide an elephant in a room.Sooner or later the radioactivity would show up along the chain of scrap metal in it;'s way to the oven and then further into fabrication.And the metal is so highly radioactive any even the crudest dosimeter would go crazy if being near those scrap.

 

[nikkkom]

> Ukrainian Facebook today gave me one answer. Yuriy Kvatkovsky. He was the head of Kiev regional police department.

blogs.lb.ua/sergiy_bondar/338077_novi_priznachennya_starih_prokuroriv.html

Ukrainian internet brings more hilarious details about this guy. When his superior's position became vacant, he summoned his subordinates and said that he is surely to be promoted to that position, and if they want to retain theirs, they need to pay. They did. Subsequently he _was not_ promoted, but moved to a different position in a different region of the country, but refused to return the money - he denied ever receiving them.

Life of a corrupt official is hard and unpredictable :D :D :D

 

[Rive]

Graphite is only difficult to ignite. When it's already burning, it burns about as easily as coal.

Just a side note: (clean) graphite/coal burns with just a really small flame, especially if there is enough O2 around (just check about blacksmith forges ). That high plume ('flame') might have been more about overheated dust and debris than (by definition) real flame.

Forest fire is different: there is always a shortage of O2, there is always more dust and it's never clean coal/graphite but more a mixture of flammable gases.

 

[nikkkom]

Fresh investigation into mass woodcutting operations

 

[nikkkom]

Police investigates Zone officials for scavenging and selling radioactive steel.

http://nashigroshi.org/2016/06/29/p...hkoshtiv-za-kordon-cherez-tserkovnu-parafiyu/

 

[Salvador]

Also beyond many public beliefs , one must understand that all before Ukraine became a country for the first time after the breakup of the USSR , the 4 years after the Chernobyl accident were still under soviet authority and the soviets did quite a big job in terms of fighting the consequences.

I recently found one old video were the army destroyed most of the vehicles used in cleanup and all the buses and transport used to empty the city of people etc.
so most of the so called Chernobyl graveyard of transport was already dealt with back in the days of the USSR.

 

[nikkkom]

so most of the so called Chernobyl graveyard of transport was already dealt with back in the days of the USSR.

Not true. The graveyard existed as of 2012. Vehicles disappeared sometime in 2012-2013.

 

[Salvador]

it was the graveyard of only those vehicles that were used on the very reactor , building the containment etc, all the other vehicles like ambulances personal cars and buses used to evacuate the city were demolished and buried.

 

[mheslep]

... the soviets did quite a big job in terms of fighting the consequences.

Yes, and the Soviets did quite a big job of creating the disaster.

 

[jim hardy]

Yes, and the Soviets did quite a big job of creating the disaster.

What i remember most vividly is evening TV news in initial days
Soviets denied anything wrong
One of the Scandinavian countries said in effect "That's hogwash, we have fresh fission fragments falling from the sky so don't tell us there's nothing wrong."

 

[mheslep]

Yes, I recall similarly. I think the bizarre, Alice-down-the-rabbit-hole denial around Chernobyl was the trigger that started the avalanche, the collapse of the Soviets. I don't mean the accident itself per se, but rather the double speak culture involved in the intentional design of a positive feedback reactor, the operation, and the subsequent denial.

 

[Salvador]

All you say is correct but I can't agree about the avalanche that started with Chernobyl , if you know history you would know that the USSR managed to eliminate millions of it's own enemies of the state back in the day and it also managed to tell professional lies when it was needed , so in terms of human sacrifice Chernobyl is actually tiny and small compared with the first Afghan war that the Soviets started in 1979 until 1989.Chernobyl was also politically well isolated inside the USSR so nobody gave a damn and when they heard the news it was already months after.The only ones that voiced concern or knew more were those directly involved or those that understand nuclear physics.

At the end of the day it all comes down to money , the reason why the USSR fell because of it's planned economy.If the government would have bothered more to enrich it's own people the union probably would have stood much longer.There would not be the fundamental reason for the unrest inside the party and the society.
Let's be honest all big powers tell lies at some point , well maybe the US has never matched the USSR or communist China in terms of brutality and twisted wickedness but the US too deals with great lies told by the oil industry etc etc , big corporations etc.
All comes down to money , give the ordinary folk money and some taste of "freedom" much like the artificial flavors added to modern drinks that are supposed to be natural and their happy , their too ignorant to care about some sort of Chernobyl or Fukushima or oil spills , as long as their big Chevy runs great their fine.Sorry for my commenting it's just what I see on daily basis.

 

[nikkkom]

At the end of the day it all comes down to money , the reason why the USSR fell because of it's planned economy. If the government would have bothered more to enrich it's own people the union probably would have stood much longer.

They could not give more to the people, socialist economy is intrinsically inefficient. It CAN'T work better. Anyone who thinks socialism can work efficiently, should book a vacation trip to Venezuela. Sadly, so many people in "evil capitalist" world do not understand it.

 

[nikkkom]

Let's be honest all big powers tell lies at some point , well maybe the US has never matched the USSR or communist China in terms of brutality and twisted wickedness but the US too deals with great lies told by the oil industry etc etc , big corporations etc.

You are wrong on many levels. The "maybe" in "maybe the US has never matched the USSR" is completely uncalled for: US definitely orders of magnitude better than USSR when it comes to government lies.

But more importantly, you are wrong when you equate "US" with "oil industry" and "big corporations".

Freedom of speech and press is designed not to stop people from lying. As of now, human civilization does not know a method how to stop people from distorting the truth when it suits their interests.

Freedom of speech and press is designed *to make it impossible for one political force to usurp the means of mass information*, and thereby to feed ONE particular set of lies to the population, non-stop.

By letting many independent, and sometimes opposing players to speak (and thus sometimes to lie), freedom of speech allows consumers of information to discern the lies.

Particularly in US, unlike many other countries, government does not even HAVE government-owned mass media. All government does is press releases, interviews, briefings. Everything else, including dissemination of those press releases, analysis of them, mocking of them, parodying them, praising them, ridiculing them, is done by mass media owned by wide variety of non-governmental players.

Saying that this is somehow not very different from USSR or China is totally wrong.

 

[jim hardy]

give the ordinary folk money and some taste of "freedom" much like the artificial flavors added to modern drinks that are supposed to be natural and their happy , their too ignorant to care about some sort of Chernobyl or Fukushima or oil spills , as long as their big Chevy runs great their fine.

i think you underestimate us.

A vigorous society is a society made up of people who set their hearts on toys, and who would work for superfluities than for necessities. The self-righteous moralists decry such a society, yet it is well to keep in mind that both children and artists need luxuries more than they need necessities.
_{eric hoffer}

oops, off topic... jh

 

[Salvador]

I don't underestimate anyone Jim , I didn't say that about you for example because from what I have read here I know and think you are above the average for sure because you understand and you care , yet so many others don't.Maybe you just don't like me painting reality in it's true color.To know something or to form an opinion requires work , it requires passion towards stuff and takes time.

As for nikkkom , well you are saying I'm wrong but then again you yourself have showed strong bias towards specific opinions.As for the many independent news networks in the US , you should have noticed that the biggest ones have aligned themselves with certain political thought and party and many of them whitewash their corresponding agenda.And if you watch carefully for the majority it works well enough to form their opinion so don't get all happy just because the constitution declares free speech.
Ok I cannot say more because it would once again go offtopic and the moderators would probably dislike that.

 

[nikkkom]

IAs for the many independent news networks in the US , you should have noticed that the biggest ones have aligned themselves with certain political thought and party and many of them whitewash their corresponding agenda.

This is not surprising. People who own and/or work in them are not impassionately cold objective robots, they are people. People tend to have political ideas.

And if you watch carefully for the majority it works well enough to form their opinion.

What this even means? That people are influenced by what they hear from mass media? Yes. I know. You are also influenced by information you receive from outside world, your ideas are not appearing in your head spontaneously.

What expectations do you have? That somehow all media become extremely objective, honest, not bending their news and programs to any political bias? And anything less than this ideal picture is "almost like USSR"?

 

[mheslep]

You are wrong on many levels. The "maybe" in "maybe the US has never matched the USSR" is completely uncalled for: US definitely orders of magnitude better than USSR when it comes to government lies.

But more importantly, you are wrong when you equate "US" with "oil industry" and "big corporations".

Freedom of speech and press is designed not to stop people from lying. As of now, human civilization does not know a method how to stop people from distorting the truth when it suits their interests.

Freedom of speech and press is designed *to make it impossible for one political force to usurp the means of mass information*, and thereby to feed ONE particular set of lies to the population, non-stop.

By letting many independent, and sometimes opposing players to speak (and thus sometimes to lie), freedom of speech allows consumers of information to discern the lies.

Particularly in US, unlike many other countries, government does not even HAVE government-owned mass media. All government does is press releases, interviews, briefings. Everything else, including dissemination of those press releases, analysis of them, mocking of them, parodying them, praising them, ridiculing them, is done by mass media owned by wide variety of non-governmental players.

Saying that this is somehow not very different from USSR or China is totally wrong.

Eh, mostly not government owned. While the US has no 100% state owned Russia Today or BBC, the US mass media is not as free of the government influence as I would like. The FCC licenses and regulates every electronic outlet, now to include the internet; the US DoJ did surveillance of reporters; some outlets PBS, NPR receive direct partial government funding; and several media chief executives and anchors have incestuous relationships with this government ie brother of CBS CEO is a senior advisor to the WH.

The mass media is not

 

[Fervent Freyja]

All comes down to money , give the ordinary folk money and some taste of "freedom" much like the artificial flavors added to modern drinks that are supposed to be natural and their happy , their too ignorant to care about some sort of Chernobyl or Fukushima or oil spills , as long as their big Chevy runs great their fine.

What an ignorant statement. People have far less power than you are assigning them. I believe that most people make the most decent choices in their power, it's only inevitable that a few of them will have negative consequences. These big powers you are referring to are a large collection of normal people like myself. I have worked for a large corporation (internal audits) and sometimes had to make decisions that I regret. But, I like to think that for the most part that my work benefited the company, customers, employees, public, and government. Sometimes you have to make decisions that conflict with your integrity and cannot ensure a fair disbursement between so many entities in every situation, but I always worked as decently as possible, within my control. I refuse to believe in these higher scary powers you are making references towards. That is all people owe to others in the world, to act with as much decency as possible. I would not condemn another person to feeling all the pain in the world, I don't want my daughter worrying about the atrocities taking place. I want her to know of it, so that she can be grateful for her quality of life and live gracefully, making decent choices throughout life that do not hurt others too much- but she should be able to enjoy a nice handbag or wine without feeling guilty. There are limits to what one person can do. We are more confined than it seems.

 

[Salvador]

Want bias in western media , look at Huffingtonpost for example , and their bias is more than just "people have feelings and political ideas" that is a bias which is made on purpose to serve a specific agenda or set of values and beliefs.All you have to do is mix in a bit of pure BS and comedy time after time and the message goes across and through like a hot knife on butter.

I'm sorry Fervent `and all others if my statement sounded ignorant but no statistic if perfect and can't cover all possible human behavior and all persons.
Sadly a lot of people are ignorant and selfish and if they wouldn't be like you imply then I think our history and state of affairs would also be different.

 

[nikkkom]

Want bias in western media , look at Huffingtonpost for example , and their bias is more than just "people have feelings and political ideas" that is a bias which is made on purpose to serve a specific agenda or set of values and beliefs.

Yes. I'll tell again: I agree with you, this does happen.
No one knows how to stop people from lying, misrepresenting facts, omitting "inconvenient" facts, etc. You don't like it? Well, I don't like it either.