Father of US Marine killed in Iraq ordered to pay.

[turbo]

Westboro picks military funerals to protest, regardless of the sexual orientation of the dead service-people. Their signs claim that God wants our soldiers dead in retribution for the US's tolerance of gays and that the deaths are God's pay-back.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Slander is the biggest thing that the good guys have going for them IMO.

Also, isn't it required that you need a permit to have a gathering on public ground? Since the police were there enforcing a barricade, it shows that WBO most likely had a permit. Why in Gods name would a town give these loonies a permit to protest?

Because they sue towns that don't give them permits and win lots of money

 

[MotoH]

I just assumed since the organization does the protests for gay soldiers. Perhaps he is not. Don't assume I am defending them as I deplore them.

Ahh simple misunderstanding then.

As it has been said just before this post, they protest both soldiers and gays.

I can't find a link to the article, but there was one time where a biker gang all held up giant flags to block the funeral procession from seeing the WBO protesters.

 

[Max Faust]

This is what's idiotic about America.

If anybody did something similar in my country (Norway) and a family member got really upset and killed some of the offensive people (who shouldn't be there in the first place, they are violating all common ideas of decency), they would have gotten perhaps 1 or 2 year prison sentence for that (because you shouldn't kill people, but some times you are justified in being angry). So things like this won't happen. And that's the end of it. You are not "free" to insult grieving people over the loss of their loved ones no matter how you feel about the "principle of law". ****in' hell, they ought to be happy that they're alive! If something like that happened here, they would have gotten beat up so bad (and possibly even killed) that it isn't even funny! And that's JUSTICE!

 

[DavidSnider]

I don't know. So they call him a fag. Well he was gay. Is that slander?

"I don't know. So they call him a cool person. Well, he's black. Is that slander?"

Come on.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

"I don't know. So they call him a cool person. Well, he's black. Is that slander?"

Come on.

Sure it's offensive, but is it a lie? In this case it seems it is. But what if he was gay?

 

[Evo]

Sure it's offensive, but is it a lie? In this case it seems it is. But what if he was gay?

Does his sexual orientation give them the right to harass individuals, especially at a funeral? Does it ever give the right?

We have laws against discrimenation.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Does his sexual orientation give them the right to harass individuals, especially at a funeral? Does it ever give the right?

We have laws against discrimenation.

If I wanted to protest outside your door because you dyed your hair blond, I think I could. I think we need to find out the local laws regarding protesting in that city. Right now I think free speech will hold. But the law is a gray area and those who want to pay to make the arguments will win.

edit: yes even I noticed the number of "I think" in my post :)

 

[Evo]

If I wanted to protest outside your door because you dyed your hair blond, I think I could. I think we need to find out the local laws regarding protesting in that city. Right now I think free speech will hold. But the law is a gray area and those who want to pay to make the arguments will win.

Actually, in my county, I know the local sheriff and you'd be hauled off and never seen again.

I don't know the specifics of this case, so I can only say if they were on cemetary grounds, they would be held to whatever the cemetary allowed, not the same as on public property.

 

[turbo]

Let's refocus. Westboro loons/goons picket ANY service-person's funeral, regardless of the sexual orientation of the soldier. They claim that God wants our soldiers killed because the US is tolerant of gay people. This is just a brain-cell or so removed from Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell's claims that civil rights groups, liberals and gay-tolerant government caused God to punish the US with the Twin-Tower 9 11 attacks.

 

[russ_watters]

I doubt it, Greg. Here's one state's law (first I could come up with):

A person (defendant) knowingly pursuing a pattern of conduct;
The pattern of conduct is intended to annoy, seriously alarm or terrorize another person;
The pattern of conduct serves no lawful purpose; and
The conduct must be such that it would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress.

http://jecclassroom.unm.edu/stalking/02-stalking-law.php

It can't be [successfully] argued that freedom of speech is the "lawful purpose" because the speech isn't for the purpose of expression (otherwise, there would be no need to do it at the funeral/Evo's door).
[edit] Let me rephrase that last sentence, since that is precisely what actually happened (it was successfully argued in front of one court): It won't be successfully argued in front of the USSC that this is protected free speech. That's a prediction.

Here's the wiki with some history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church#Laws_limiting_funeral_protests

 

[Max Faust]

I think free speech will hold

Somebody's "free speech" shouldn't imply somebody else's duty to listen.

It's been a while since I read the American State Papers, but I believe this was covered at least in intent if not in details. Personally, I find it horrific that anyone can think it is a matter of "free speech" to insult somebody who died (no matter for what reason) and I can assure you - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that if this was my brother, if you came to me with insults like that, I would kill you. No mercy. No hesitation. The lowest thing anyone can do is to insult the dead. I can feel how I get enraged even at the idea!

 

[Max Faust]

I want to add:

Why do American Government protect villains like this? The people at the funeral should have apprehended and hanged them. That would have been just and right.

 

[Evo]

I want to add:

Why do American Government protect villains like this? The people at the funeral should have apprehended and hanged them. That would have been just and right.

Welcome to America, where prejudice and discrimination are protected.

 

[turbo]

Right now I think free speech will hold.

There is the little matter of sedition, and if this appeal goes to the SC the case will probably be seen in a few more dimensions other than "free speech". Regardless of how right-wing many of the members of the court might be, I find it hard to believe that a majority on the bench will give the Westboro loons carte-blanche to trash our fallen soldiers when they are being mourned in private services and incite hatred against gays, Jews, etc while claiming that our country's public policies are causing God to bring suffering upon us. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

BTW, if a "church" is engaging in overtly political activism, that "church" should not enjoy tax-free status in the future. The Roman Catholic Church in Maine pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into the fight against allowing gay marriage, and provided much more in in-kind services from parishioners. There are some towns here that are in horrible financial shape in part because the church has bought valuable properties and pays NO taxes on them. That ought to change as soon as the church starts buying elections and referendums. Let them pay their way.

 

[elect_eng]

... I can assure you - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that if this was my brother, if you came to me with insults like that, I would kill you. No mercy. No hesitation. The lowest thing anyone can do is to insult the dead. ...

No that is not the lowest thing anyone can do. Killing someone for uttering words is lower.

 

[Evo]

No that is not the lowest thing anyone can do. Killing someone for uttering words is lower.

I think it's more of a moral rather than rather physical outrage.

 

[elect_eng]

Why do American Government protect villains like this?

The reason is very simple. The US founding fathers felt that it is much worse to let a Government become the villain. The protection of basic rights, like freedom of speech, is a protection against the government itself. If we give up these rights, we can initially stop individual villains from doing these annoying things, but we will then be powerless to stop being oppressed by the government itself.

What force would you rather try to oppose on your own; the entire US government with the most powerful military might in the world, or a handful of ignorant religious zealots with nothing but cruel words to throw at you?

 

[elect_eng]

I think it's more of a moral rather than rather physical outrage.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm morally outraged, physically outraged and emotionally outraged, as well as any other kind of outrage you can mention. Does this justify me killing someone for what they say or think? How moral would that be?

 

[Evo]

What force would you rather try to oppose on your own; the entire US government with the most powerful military might in the world, or a handful of ignorant religious zealots with nothing but cruel words to throw at you?

It seems that we have given ourselves over to the ignorant religious zealots.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

What Americans need to do if they are so offended is to display a response. Let them know how we feel in a constructive and powerful way. We shouldn't expect government to handle everything, because they don't. Let's boycott and protest the protesters. Those who are upset should take action. Get off your butts boo-hooing on the internet and get something done.

 

[elect_eng]

It seems that we have given ourselves over to the ignorant religious zealots.

No more so than we have given ourselves over to the nats and mosquitos that try to bite us while we enjoy the breeze on a warm summer evening.

 

[Max Faust]

The reason is very simple. The US founding fathers felt that it is much worse to let a Government become the villain. The protection of basic rights, like freedom of speech, is a protection against the government itself. If we give up these rights, we can initially stop individual villains from doing these annoying things, but we will then be powerless to stop being oppressed by the government itself.

What force would you rather try to oppose on your own; the entire US government with the most powerful military might in the world, or a handful of ignorant religious zealots with nothing but cruel words to throw at you?

WTF are you talking about dude? Passive aggressive nonsense taken to the next level?
The post is about some people showing up at some guys funeral to insult and scorn his family.
WTF?
Do you consider that a "right"? They you are sick as well.
You have no right to insult and scorn the dead. Especially not the dead soldiers. Especially not if they died during some kind of - however misguided - campaign to protect YOUR stinking ***. F-- you.

 

[turbo]

Let's boycott and protest the protesters.

How will that help? The Westboro nuts don't care if they are ignored by the loved ones of the fallen soldiers, and counter-protests just put hate-mongers on an equal footing with outraged citizens who want to stop the idiocy. Our "media" has long since stopped reporting actual news and facts and will present every such confrontation as a a case of A vs B with no moral or ethical context. Watch TV on Sunday mornings to see this non-dynamic in action. Side A makes unsubstantiated claims, side B makes unsubstantiated claims (with various degrees of veracity on either side), and the hosts refuse to call out the liars. Just give them a forum, let them fight it out, and call it journalism. I never turn on the TV on Sunday mornings anymore. If I did, I'd throw a brick through the screen in about 5 minutes.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

How will that help?

I think we show a unified force of hundreds of thousands or millions they will listen. Of course this is fantasy.

 

[Max Faust]

Those who are upset should take action.

I would if I could. Or should. If it isn't *my* fight, I prefer to stay out.

But I'd show up any bloody day to defend the honourably dead! Be they from here or there. It's the same idea everywhere. Even if they are enemies! If you're a warrior, you fight. That's what you're there for. Just don't push this too far...

 

[elect_eng]

WTF are you talking about dude? Passive aggressive nonsense taken to the next level?
The post is about some people showing up at some guys funeral to insult and scorn his family.
WTF?
Do you consider that a "right"? They you are sick as well.
You have no right to insult and scorn the dead. Especially not the dead soldiers. Especially not if they died during some kind of - however misguided - campaign to protect YOUR stinking ***. F-- you.

In the spirit of this topic, I would ask that these comments not be deleted by a moderator.

You are completely missing my point, and actually misrepresenting it, but that is your right if you choose to do it.

 

[Max Faust]

Okay. My view won't change no matter what.

Edit to add: Wherever you come from and whoever you are, you know that it's *wrong* to dishonour the dead - and especially so when their family and relatives are standing next to the scene. If you do that you deserve to get killed. Brutally and mercilessly. That's all.

 

[Evo]

Unfortunately taking on religious fundimentalists isn't easy, or even possible.

Normal, rational, religious people are fine. They also have issues with the fundies.

We need to meet the normal people in the middle.

 

[Max Faust]

Ewww...

This is all just really very unpleasant, isn't it?

Why would anyone show up at some guy's funeral just to insult the mourners?

I don't get it.

Edit: The level of HATE it takes to do something like that is alien to me.

 

[turbo]

I think we show a unified force of hundreds of thousands or millions they will listen. Of course this is fantasy.

There has been at least one funeral that was given an honor-guard and cordon by my fellow bikers to keep the Westboro loons at bay. I'll try to dig up a link, if I can. There are a lot of veteran's organizations in this state that are heavily populated with bikers, and our state organization (United Bikers of Maine) partners with the Marines and the Salvation Army every year to make Toys for Tots the largest annual charity event of the year (by far). We enjoy a very high popularity rating in the state for our charity work and for rehabilitating neglected old cemeteries, etc. Young and old and all ages in between line our parade route through the state capitol to look at all the bikes and wave at all the bikers and join us at the Salvation Army collection-point later to enjoy the bands and vendors and to donate toys, clothing, bedding, and other things that might make kids' Christmas a bit nicer.

It would be hard to find a less hospitable place for the Westboro creeps to spew their hatred, if bikers were well-motivated to watch their battle-plans and stop them. You'd be hard-pressed to find a DA in this state that would press charges against a veteran biker if one of the Westboro activists insisted on bashing his face repeatedly on the biker's fist. I do not advocate vigilantism or violence, but the Westboro hate-mongers are bringing their own brand of assault to these funerals, and the law has not yet managed to adapt to respond in kind.

A dear friend of mine died a number of years ago. She was a Quaker who attended Universalist services in her older years. A really sweet, nice lady who volunteered her time for many causes and spent about every week-day evening traveling over 50 miles/night plus hours of classroom time to teach immigrants English as a second language. People like her are like streams that so gradually and inexorably sculpt the landscape through which they move. The Westboro nuts would pay her and her friends no attention at all. They want attention, press, and notoriety, and they wouldn't look too tough confronting a group of mild-mannered 60-80 year olds advocating for peace and civility.

 

[elect_eng]

Edit to add: Wherever you come from and whoever you are, you know that it's *wrong* to dishonour the dead - and especially so when their family and relatives are standing next to the scene. If you do that you deserve to get killed. Brutally and mercilessly. That's all.

You know I really object to you directing this comment at me. You seem to imply that I would dishonour the dead. I wouldn't do so ever - with or without relatives around. I wouldn't do it to my worst enemy and certainly not to a fallen hero. When I defend the right to free speech in the USA, I do so in honor of these fallen heros.

DON'T EVER IMPLY OTHERWISE AGAIN!

 

[zomgwtf]

I am uncertain of the circumstances of the protest. Were they protesting inside during the wake, on the public cemetery grounds during burial, or outside on the sidewalk yelling?

Greg none of this really matters. It wasn't truly 'illegal' for them to just be protesting there. People DID however agree with everything that is being said in this thread and that's why 2 months after this incident a Bill was passed to prevent protests within a certain amount of time of a scheduled funeral within a particular distance.

The families lawsuit has nothing to do really with the legality of protesting in a particular area. That's a case being filed BY THE GOVERNMENTS. The case filed by the family is a private civil case and it only has to do with the fact that:

one does not have the right to conspire to use lies in order to inflict intentional harm upon persons who are grieving the death of their children.

http://www.matthewsnyder.org/
The protestors didn't only use the protest to convey their message, they took to the internet and other various forms. Their purpose wasn't to spread some message of their church, it was MERELY TO INFLICT HARM to the grieving family of a WAR HERO PERIOD. They were initially awarded something like $8 million, but now they have to fork over $16k. (Not really though since Bill O'Reilly has said he would cover them)
There has been no set date on needing to pay the money but if Phelps decided to collect the Snyder family has absolutely no way to pay and they shouldn't HAVE to pay anyways. They are the victims why the hell should they pay anything? So if Phelps decides to do this prior to the Supreme court ruling THEY HAVE TO PAY, doesn't matter what goes on.

 

[zomgwtf]

You know I really object to you directing this comment at me. You seem to imply that I would dishonour the dead. I wouldn't do so ever - with or without relatives around. I wouldn't do it to my worst enemy and certainly not to a fallen hero. When I defend the right to free speech in the USA, I do so in honor of these fallen heros.

DON'T EVER IMPLY OTHERWISE AGAIN!

Attempting to protect those that say:

he was raised for the devil and taught him to defy his Creator, to divorce, and to commit adultery...

Is, in my eyes, the same thing as flat out agreeing with what they are doing. You are defending the wrong side, by far. If any of these fallen heroes could come back and you were to ask them, did you die for this form of freedom? I highly doubt they will tell you, yes, yes I did die for nutcases to cause my family distress for raising me as a Catholic.

In fact a main part about modern wars is to go in and KILL the nutcases that cause distress to families worldwide. These people should be included.


Anyways.
I don't think that think that this particular protest they did had to do with Snyder being gay, eveything I could dig up has to do with him being a Catholic and him being a Marine.

 

[MotoH]

They are protesting at a Marines funeral in Florida who died in Marjah on March 22nd. I am not sure when the Protest is, but I hope that something unfortunate happens to them.