FEinstein: Assault Weapons Ban Bill

[MarneMath]

Of course, the handgun issue is an entirely different issue altogether, and quite frankly more dangerous. You can carry more mags, in less space that can do quite a bit of damage quickly and also hide the weapon better. I've always argued that targeting assault weapons is really just a 'feel good' tactic. The real problem in the US is the massive amount of killing done by handguns.

However, that isn't the point. The point is there is literally no point for a civilian to have a 30 round mag nor is there a point for a guy like Cho to have a hollow point round. The only goal for a hollow-point is to increase the damage to a target. This round is ban for military use, yet we sell it? Come on! (I can understand why it would be sold for hunting rifles, but I'm willing to wager no one is going to hunt for a deer with a p22.)

While massing shooting like Newton are 'rare', they are more frequent here than our peers, and gun violence as a whole is larger in the states also. Clearly there exist a problem, ignoring it and saying 'welp there's nothing that can be done' seems way too defeatist for my taste.

 

[Skrew]

Of course, the handgun issue is an entirely different issue altogether, and quite frankly more dangerous. You can carry more mags, in less space that can do quite a bit of damage quickly and also hide the weapon better. I've always argued that targeting assault weapons is really just a 'feel good' tactic. The real problem in the US is the massive amount of killing done by handguns.

However, that isn't the point. The point is there is literally no point for a civilian to have a 30 round mag nor is there a point for a guy like Cho to have a hollow point round. The only goal for a hollow-point is to increase the damage to a target. This round is ban for military use, yet we sell it? Come on! (I can understand why it would be sold for hunting rifles, but I'm willing to wager no one is going to hunt for a deer with a p22.)

While massing shooting like Newton are 'rare', they are more frequent here than our peers, and gun violence as a whole is larger in the states also. Clearly there exist a problem, ignoring it and saying 'welp there's nothing that can be done' seems way too defeatist for my taste.

The reason to own a 30rd magazine is to be able to shoot more bullets. 10rd magazines aren't any more legitimate then 30rd in their use and both are pretty arbitrary numbers. It's true that 30rd are more effective but effectiveness doesn't imply something is bad to own. The vast majority of people who own 30rd magazines don't wrongly shoot people with them(30rd is standard on ar-15s in most states).

Hollowpoints are standard defensive rounds. It's true they are designed to cause as much damage as possible to an unarmored target, I don't see a problem with this.

I don't consider my position defeatist, I consider the losses associated with access to and ownership of firearms including ar-15s with standard capacity magazines(30rd) acceptable. I support looking at other ways to reduce deaths but a ban on ownership is not one of them.

 

[BobG]

Sure, people can try to find black market sources for guns and ammo, but that is difficult, expensive and risky.

Availability matters.

The expense is transitioning a legally purchased gun into the black market. The guns have to be stolen or purchased using some sort of forged paperwork or other means. Difficult, but cheaper and less risky than smuggling guns into the country.

Increasing the difficulty of obtaining weapons legally also increases the difficulty (and expense) of obtaining black market weapons.

 

[nsaspook]

However, that isn't the point. The point is there is literally no point for a civilian to have a 30 round mag nor is there a point for a guy like Cho to have a hollow point round. The only goal for a hollow-point is to increase the damage to a target. This round is ban for military use, yet we sell it? Come on! (I can understand why it would be sold for hunting rifles, but I'm willing to wager no one is going to hunt for a deer with a p22.)

We all know banning 30 round mags will be as effective as banning 40s of beer in stopping crime in the hood.

Almost nobody uses FMJ rounds in a handgun for personal protection or law enforcement except the military. I reload .45 .223 308 ammo and use FMJ rounds only for target practice.

http://forums.officer.com/t82674/

 

[nsaspook]

The expense is transitioning a legally purchased gun into the black market. The guns have to be stolen or purchased using some sort of forged paperwork or other means. Difficult, but cheaper and less risky than smuggling guns into the country.

Increasing the difficulty of obtaining weapons legally also increases the difficulty (and expense) of obtaining black market weapons.

I spent some time in the southern Philippines long ago. It was amazing to me to watch modern weapons being made in such primitive conditions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lLApVGIU8eQ

With 3D printing and low cost CNC machines the underground gun manufacturing market will bloom if it becomes a crime profit center due to the increased value and demand for banned guns. This bill makes current semi-auto weapons on the banned list the same NFA class as real machines guns so the incentive might be to produce full-auto weapons if the penalties for using one are the same. Do you think it's a sane idea to make every AR-15 clone a NFA weapon?

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#nfa-firearms

 

[CAC1001]

I don't know how you define "violence", but the total number of people whose cause of death was firearms related is roughly equal to the number killed in traffic accidents. Maybe you should forget about the "violent minority" and focus on other 2/3 of the problem. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

I should have been clearer in my writing, but by "gun violence deaths," I was thinking of gun homicides: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Actually, we already have a better idea - controlling the public use of ALL cars by speed limits and traffic regulations, not to mention compulsory driver training.

A lot of traffic accidents happen because of people who do not obey those laws is the problem however.

Let's try an analogy to the "guns protect people against gun crime" argument: maybe everybody should have high performance cars, so if they see somebody driving dangerously they can chase them and force them off the road to defuse the situation ... ?

I don't think that analogy works.

 

[CAC1001]

I'm fairly sure he meant "Recognizability". It's the same reason you're not supposed to remove the orange tip from a (fake) pop gun. If you get shot by a cop for pointing a fake gun at him without an orange tip, it's your fault, not the cops fault.

If you're a bunch of kids riding around pointing a fake gun without the orange tip at people, you're being reckless. It doesn't matter about the gun's functionality, it matters about the social implications of having something that looks like a gun.

Now we apply this logic to assault weapons. If you look like an illegally-armed militia group, it gives you proximity social power.

I don't buy the argument on recognizability. A gun is a gun. It isn't going to be more recognizable due to something like a bayonet lug or pistol grip. As for the stock, they make fixed stocks that look identical to collapsing stocks.

But also, it's illegal to just go out walking around with rifles. It's not like you can just go out for a jog and carry a rifle with you.

 

[CAC1001]

If it can prevent mass shootings, then why not do it. It seems like the crux of your argument is "it doesn't solve everything so why bother?" Sure, illegal gun ownership and gang violence will probably kill more people yearly than any mass shootings, but that doesn't mean you don't do anything to make it harder for mass shootings to happen.

I think it depends on how much additional hassle does it put onto the ordinary citizen. There is always "more" that we could do to theoretically make mass shootings even rarer by making it more and more difficult ot legally purchase a gun.

A gun's real only purpose is to kill someone with relatively little skill. I understand there exist SOME shooters (include myself) who enjoy going to ranges and testing your skill, but in the end of the day, the gun was designed to kill something. With that in mind, I have no idea why it isn't highly regulated. If we are going to trust people with guns, we need to make sure that they know how to use them, properly store them and at the same time limit the ability for one person to shoot 30 5.56 mm rounds.

If the gun makes killing very easy, then why do people need special training in how to use them? Also, how do we define "properly store?" (that gets arbitrary).

However, that isn't the point. The point is there is literally no point for a civilian to have a 30 round mag nor is there a point for a guy like Cho to have a hollow point round. The only goal for a hollow-point is to increase the damage to a target. This round is ban for military use, yet we sell it? Come on! (I can understand why it would be sold for hunting rifles, but I'm willing to wager no one is going to hunt for a deer with a p22.)

My understanding of hollow-point is that it penetrates less, which makes it ideal for civilians and law-enforcement. One thing to also keep in mind with the Second Amendment is that it isn't solely about whether one needs something. Now I'm not saying that in a way as to not allow any kinds of regulations, but I mean, when people say, "No one needs this or that," arms-wise, people need to remember when it comes to regulating it that arms ownership is a fundamental right. Also, who decides what is the "appropriate" number of rounds for a magazine to hold?

 

[CAC1001]

Suppose this passes, when the next mass shooting happens, what will be the next set of regulations pushed? Magazine limits to 5rds? No detachable magazines?

In New York state, they are talking about now reducing magazine size from ten rounds to seven rounds; I don't see how that will make a difference at all.

 

[russ_watters]

The reason to own a 30rd magazine is to be able to shoot more bullets. 10rd magazines aren't any more legitimate then 30rd in their use and both are pretty arbitrary numbers.

Yes, they are arbitrary, but that is not a good reason for why there should be no limit at all, if a limit saves lives.

 

[russ_watters]

The expense is transitioning a legally purchased gun into the black market. The guns have to be stolen or purchased using some sort of forged paperwork or other means. Difficult, but cheaper and less risky than smuggling guns into the country.

Increasing the difficulty of obtaining weapons legally also increases the difficulty (and expense) of obtaining black market weapons.

Yes and "risky" in that doing something illegal can get you arrested before you even get a chance to do what you wanted to do with that gun.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't buy the argument on recognizability. A gun is a gun. It isn't going to be more recognizable due to something like a bayonet lug or pistol grip. As for the stock, they make fixed stocks that look identical to collapsing stocks.

My point was that assault weapons need to be differentiated from hunting rifles, so features that differentiate them are specified in the laws, whether those features are functional or cosmetic.

 

[CAC1001]

My point was that assault weapons need to be differentiated from hunting rifles, so features that differentiate them are specified in the laws, whether those features are functional or cosmetic.

There is no difference though, unless one is talking automatic fire weapons which are already banned (minus the bump fire mechanisms which I am fine with limitations on). As said before, there is no such thing as an "assault weapon" even. That's a political term that was invented by gun control people to give them an "in" with regards to being able to restrict firearms ownership. As for hunting rifles versus military rifles, the practice of adopting military rifles for hunting purposes goes back to the Revolution.

What people forget is that they think you need some kind of special gun to be able to kill people. But people, biologically, are animals. If the gun can kill a human, it can be used to kill an animal and vice-versa. The AR-15 and the AR-10 (it's bigger brother) both make fine hunting rifles. The military uses a variant of a very popular hunting rifle for use as a sniper rifle as well, the Remington 700.

 

[Pythagorean]

I don't buy the argument on recognizability. A gun is a gun. It isn't going to be more recognizable due to something like a bayonet lug or pistol grip. As for the stock, they make fixed stocks that look identical to collapsing stocks.

But also, it's illegal to just go out walking around with rifles. It's not like you can just go out for a jog and carry a rifle with you.

What? I don't know where you live but where I live people carry all the time. It's not illegal and its socially acceptable. The intent is always hunting or bear protection.

 

[russ_watters]

There is no difference though...

You mean functionally? That isn't really true. Here's the list of features from the original ban. Looks to me like most are regarding functionality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

As said before, there is no such thing as an "assault weapon" even. That's a political term that was invented by gun control people to give them an "in" with regards to being able to restrict firearms ownership. As for hunting rifles versus military rifles, the practice of adopting military rifles for hunting purposes goes back to the Revolution.

That's nonsense and your historical example shows why: hunting rifles used to be the same as military weapons, but they aren't anymore. The military uses different weapons today because the ones they use are better suited for killing people (lots of people) than hunting rifles.

And why quibble with a name? It is just a name and it doesn't change the fact that the weapons are military-type weapons. We could just as easily call them "military-type weapons." Would that change your stance?

What people forget is that they think you need some kind of special gun to be able to kill people.

No, we most certainly have not forgotten that. In a way, you are looking at this backwards: you don't need a 30 round magazine, folding stock and silencer threads to hunt deer. The descriptions of features exist as much to protect hunting rifles than to identify assault rifles. Otherwise, they could simply ban all semi-automatic rifles.

 

[CAC1001]

What? I don't know where you live but where I live people carry all the time. It's not illegal and its socially acceptable. The intent is always hunting or bear protection.

Maybe in certain areas, but in ordinary America, you are asking for trouble if you just go out with a rifle.

 

[MarneMath]

Ever heard of an Alaska carry or Vermont carry? Some states do allow open carry and concealed carry without a license.

 

[CAC1001]

You mean functionally? That isn't really true. Here's the list of features from the original ban. Looks to me like most are regarding functionality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

There is no difference. The list for rifles is the following:

Folding or telescoping stock - certain hunting rifles have these

Pistol grip - certain hunting rifles have these

Bayonet mount - when has a criminal ever fixed a bayonet?

Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one - what difference does the use of one of these make?

Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally) - it was for a WWII grenade launcher, but regardless, one can't buy the grenades for either one anyhow

None of the above has anything to do with the ability of the gun to kill.

That's nonsense and your historical example shows why: hunting rifles used to be the same as military weapons, but they aren't anymore. The military uses different weapons today because the ones they use are better suited for killing people (lots of people) than hunting rifles.

It is not nonsense at all. The term "assault weapon" as we know it now was created by gun control activist Josh Sugarmann. It has nothing to do with the weapon's functionality. And "hunting rifles" are not guns that "used to be the same" as military weapons. They are the same guns that the military used, albeit just with certain features that make them more suited to hunting. Even this gets arbitrary, as many of the same features that make guns ideal for military and police use also make them ideal for hunting use.

Here are some modern hunting rifles:

Remington R15

Smith and Wesson 300 Whisper

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/811300_01_md.jpg

Note these look identical to many an AR-15, which is many ways they are, but they have a camouflage pattern for hunting and some extra more hunting-oriented features. But functionally there's not really any difference.

The military does not use different guns today unless you mean machine guns, which are more for suppressive fire purposes. Otherwise, the military's guns have the same functionality as any semi-automatic rifle one can buy. One of the first semi-automatic rifles was the Winchester 1903 (came out in 1903 hence the name). The M1 Garand is a semi-automatic WWII rifle and the Springfield M1A is a 1950s-era weapon. The AR-10 and the AR-15 are late 50s to early 60s.

The military does use 30 round magazines, which as said, one can argue for limiting the magazine size to ten rounds.

And why quibble with a name? It is just a name and it doesn't change the fact that the weapons are military-type weapons. We could just as easily call them "military-type weapons." Would that change your stance?

No, because there is no such thing as a "military-type" weapon in terms of killing ability. A gun is a gun is a gun. It doesn't care if it's being used to shoot people or animals. Here is a sniper rifle used by the military, the M24:

Here is the Remington 700 hunting rifle, which is what the M24 is based off of:

http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Firearms/Centerfire/Model-700/Model-700-BDL-Anniversary/700_7mm_50th_BDL_84063_Right.ashx?w=570&bc=black

Neither gun cares whether it's shooting a bear or a person.

No, we most certainly have not forgotten that. In a way, you are looking at this backwards: you don't need a 30 round magazine, folding stock and silencer threads to hunt deer. The descriptions of features exist as much to protect hunting rifles than to identify assault rifles. Otherwise, they could simply ban all semi-automatic rifles.

Remember though that the Second Amendment isn't about hunting. For example, weapons like the AR-15 are also excellent for home defense purposes. That said though, while I can see the arguments about magazine capacity, I do not at all see what the stock has anything to do with the gun's ability to kill something. As for silencers, silencers do not silence a gun shot, that is just Hollywood where that happens.

 

[BobG]

I spent some time in the southern Philippines long ago. It was amazing to me to watch modern weapons being made in such primitive conditions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lLApVGIU8eQ

With 3D printing and low cost CNC machines the underground gun manufacturing market will bloom if it becomes a crime profit center due to the increased value and demand for banned guns. This bill makes current semi-auto weapons on the banned list the same NFA class as real machines guns so the incentive might be to produce full-auto weapons if the penalties for using one are the same. Do you think it's a sane idea to make every AR-15 clone a NFA weapon?

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#nfa-firearms

If weapons were banned entirely, an underground manufacturing industry would bloom (or be smuggled in from other countries manufacturing weapons legally). If the choices are legal weapons that have a somewhat limited capability or "more capable" replicas made by underground manufacturers, the replicas may not be quite as popular.

http://www.dismalworld.com/black-economy/faithful_replicas_of_guns_and_rifles_produced.php. Primitive weapons made under primitive conditions that at least look like the real thing. It's a little like bootleg whiskey. You find a reliable manufacturer and you're probably okay. On the path to finding a reliable manufacturer, a customer takes their chances.

 

[Pythagorean]

There is no difference. The list for rifles is the following:

Folding or telescoping stock - certain hunting rifles have these

Pistol grip - certain hunting rifles have these

Bayonet mount - when has a criminal ever fixed a bayonet?

Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one - what difference does the use of one of these make?

Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally) - it was for a WWII grenade launcher, but regardless, one can't buy the grenades for either one anyhow

None of the above has anything to do with the ability of the gun to kill.



It is not nonsense at all. The term "assault weapon" as we know it now was created by gun control activist Josh Sugarmann. It has nothing to do with the weapon's functionality. And "hunting rifles" are not guns that "used to be the same" as military weapons. They are the same guns that the military used, albeit just with certain features that make them more suited to hunting. Even this gets arbitrary, as many of the same features that make guns ideal for military and police use also make them ideal for hunting use.

Here are some modern hunting rifles:

Remington R15

Smith and Wesson 300 Whisper

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/811300_01_md.jpg

Note these look identical to many an AR-15, which is many ways they are, but they have a camouflage pattern for hunting and some extra more hunting-oriented features. But functionally there's not really any difference.

The military does not use different guns today unless you mean machine guns, which are more for suppressive fire purposes. Otherwise, the military's guns have the same functionality as any semi-automatic rifle one can buy. One of the first semi-automatic rifles was the Winchester 1903 (came out in 1903 hence the name). The M1 Garand is a semi-automatic WWII rifle and the Springfield M1A is a 1950s-era weapon. The AR-10 and the AR-15 are late 50s to early 60s.

The military does use 30 round magazines, which as said, one can argue for limiting the magazine size to ten rounds.



No, because there is no such thing as a "military-type" weapon in terms of killing ability. A gun is a gun is a gun. It doesn't care if it's being used to shoot people or animals. Here is a sniper rifle used by the military, the M24:

Here is the Remington 700 hunting rifle, which is what the M24 is based off of:

http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Firearms/Centerfire/Model-700/Model-700-BDL-Anniversary/700_7mm_50th_BDL_84063_Right.ashx?w=570&bc=black

Neither gun cares whether it's shooting a bear or a person.



Remember though that the Second Amendment isn't about hunting. For example, weapons like the AR-15 are also excellent for home defense purposes. That said though, while I can see the arguments about magazine capacity, I do not at all see what the stock has anything to do with the gun's ability to kill something. As for silencers, silencers do not silence a gun shot, that is just Hollywood where that happens.

As far as cosmetics goes, it makes a big difference to the tactical team responding whether the perps are armed with hunting rifles or assault rifles. Some towns (like the one I am in now) wouldn't be able to do much against assault rifles, and the rules of engagement are different. So if a clever team of bank robbers buy each member a hunting rifle that looks like an automatic weapon, they render some response teams inert.

If we can ban all weapons that look like assault rifles, then we remove this complication. We make it more difficult to fool law enforcement and we create more accountability for people masquerading hunting rifles as assault weapons.

 

[Skrew]

Can someone explain the basis of "hunting rifles" being used as the basis of what is or isn't acceptable to own?

I don't hunt and I don't consider hunting the basis of gun ownership, they are two completely separate issues. Hunting is a sport/hobby and as such is nonvital. To associate the two degreades firearms ownership into a hobby and as a hobby it is open to far more regulation.

I suspect that's the intended goal.

 

[CAC1001]

As far as cosmetics goes, it makes a big difference to the tactical team responding whether the perps are armed with hunting rifles or assault rifles. Some towns (like the one I am in now) wouldn't be able to do much against assault rifles, and the rules of engagement are different. So if a clever team of bank robbers buy each member a hunting rifle that looks like an automatic weapon, they render some response teams inert.

If we can ban all weapons that look like assault rifles, then we remove this complication. We make it more difficult to fool law enforcement and we create more accountability for people masquerading hunting rifles as assault weapons.

By that standard, the bank robbers would be smart to just use fake guns that look real is all. Are they going to ban the fake guns too? And not everyone wants a gun for hunting, a lot of people just prefer a gun for self-defense is all. Some people prefer a hand gun, some a rifle, some a shotgun. It's a matter of preference.

 

[Pythagorean]

By that standard, the bank robbers would be smart to just use fake guns that look real is all. Are they going to ban the fake guns too? And not everyone wants a gun for hunting, a lot of people just prefer a gun for self-defense is all. Some people prefer a hand gun, some a rifle, some a shotgun. It's a matter of preference.

Like I said, fake guns must have an orange plug in their barrels. To have a fake gun out without a orange plug is illegal, yes. Kids riding around in cars pointing fake guns at people with the orange cap removed get arrested. Completely illegal. You rob a bank with a fake gun, you get armed robbery. That kind of thing isn't taken lightly.

Also, genuinely curious whether you can show me some (non-anecdotal) proof that guns work for home protection. I remember hearing a statistic that it's more likely there's an accidentals shooting than a home protection, but that statistic was not verified, just stated./

 

[CAC1001]

Like I said, fake guns must have an orange plug in their barrels. To have a fake gun out without a orange plug is illegal, yes. Kids riding around in cars pointing fake guns at people with the orange cap removed get arrested. Completely illegal. You rob a bank with a fake gun, you get armed robbery. That kind of thing isn't taken lightly.

Yes, my point was though that it doesn't make much sense to ban real guns based on how they look if the criminals could use fake guns that look real as well. If the criminals are planning to rob a bank, they obviously won't leave the orange plug in.

Also, genuinely curious whether you can show me some (non-anecdotal) proof that guns work for home protection. I remember hearing a statistic that it's more likely there's an accidentals shooting than a home protection, but that statistic was not verified, just stated./

I do not know the statistics regarding that off the top of my head. But even if in more home invasions, the person wasn't able to access the gun in time, I do not think a person should be denied their right to try to protect themself.

 

[Pythagorean]

Yes, my point was though that it doesn't make much sense to ban real guns based on how they look if the criminals could use fake guns that look real as well. If the criminals are planning to rob a bank, they obviously won't leave the orange plug in.

Why doesn't it make much sense? What's the contradiction you're detecting?

I do not know the statistics regarding that off the top of my head. But even if in more home invasions, the person wasn't able to access the gun in time, I do not think a person should be denied their right to try to protect themself.

Even if home discharges lead to more accidental shootings than home defenses? At some point, I think that's reckless. (if the statistical claim is true).

Nobodies being denied their right to protect themselves in general. People are being denied the right to protect themselves in a particular way that has (or might have been) shown to be ineffective.

 

[CAC1001]

Why doesn't it make much sense? What's the contradiction you're detecting?

Because they could use fake guns in place of the real ones if their plan is to intimidate the police into not doing anything. Such instances are so rare though that I do not think it makes any sense to deny people such weapons just because they could be used to fool the police in something like a bank robbery.

Even if home discharges lead to more accidental shootings than home defenses? At some point, I think that's reckless. (if the statistical claim is true).

If home discharges lead to more accidental shootings than home defenses, then that's a case of irresponsible gun ownership and a call for responsible gun ownership, not banning the weapons.

Nobodies being denied their right to protect themselves in general. People are being denied the right to protect themselves in a particular way that has (or might have been) shown to be ineffective.

I don't think it could ever be shown to be ineffective, just a question of in home invasions where the person has a firearm, in more or in less are they able to get the gun to protect themself in time.

 

[russ_watters]

There is no difference.

Nonsense. You've posted one example of a crossover, but that's it. Most hunting rifles do not look like assault rifles. I'd like to know honestly how many people hunt with an M-16 copy. And in addition, you posted one very badly chosen example:

Sniper rifles. Sniper rifles are intended for one-shot-one-kill use, much like hunting rifles. They are not the same as assault rifles and often aren't even semi-automatic, such as in your example of the Remmington 700. So in this case, you're arguing against your point: Since the rifle is a military-type, but specialized for accuracy and not high firing rate or portability or other infantry type functionality, it is not the type of weapon that needs to be banned for civilian use. Hence the need for another term to describe the type of weapon that is to be banned: assault weapons/rifles.

I'm not an expert, though, so you tell me: why is the Remmington 700 single-shot? Why the lack of a carrying handle on top? Why no flash suppressor? Why a solid stock? Could it be that all of these features affect accuracy? Indeed, if you would like all hunting rifles to be bolt-action like the Remmington 700, I'd definitely be willing to compromise on that!

edit: oh, and the wiki says this:

Remington markets the 700 to military forces and civilian law-enforcement agencies under the Remington Law Enforcement and Remington Military banner, with the military/law enforcement 700s being called the Model 700P ("Police"). The 700P series appears to have been influenced by the designs, features, and success of the M24 Sniper Weapon System and the M40 series, with one feature of the Model 700P series being the heavier and thicker barrel for increased accuracy and reduced recoil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_700

Recoil reduces accuracy, which is a good reason for both sniper rifles and hunting rifles to be heavier and more solid than assault rifles.

 

[Evo]

I don't hunt and I don't consider hunting the basis of gun ownership, they are two completely separate issues.

Hunting is the only acceptable reason to own a gun, handguns are for killing people, IMO.

Hunting is a sport/hobby and as such is nonvital. To associate the two degreades firearms ownership into a hobby and as a hobby it is open to far more regulation.

What? Are you trying to say that owning a handgun is a neccessity?

No one "needs" to own a handgun. No one needs to own any type of gun. But owning shotguns and rifles for hunting animals, within the law, is acceptable, there is no need for anything except single shot. As far as I know, animals aren't armed and aren't able to shoot back.

If you live in fear of being gunned down and need guns with a large amount of bullets, and you aren't living in a gang neighborhood, you need therapy, IMO. If you live in a normal neighborhood, fears like this need medical attention. Seriously, your risk of slipping in the bathroom and getting killed are much more likely than getting shot, but I assume you bathe.

While the number of households with guns has decreased the number of guns owned by individuals has increased.

Also, the number of gun related injuries and deaths have gone up, the number of those related to crime have decreased. More guns = more deaths.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-19/american-gun-deaths-to-exceed-traffic-fatalities-by-2015.html

 

[russ_watters]

Hunting is the only acceptable reason to own a gun, handguns are for killing people, IMO.

What? Are you trying to say that owning a handgun is a neccessity?

No one "needs" to own a handgun. No one needs to own any type of gun. But owning shotguns and rifles for hunting animals, within the law, is acceptable, there is no need for anything except single shot. As far as I know, animals aren't armed and aren't able to shoot back.

If you live in fear of being gunned down and need guns with a large amount of bullets, and you aren't living in a gang neighborhood, you need therapy, IMO. If you live in a normal neighborhood, fears like this need medical attention.

To expand on my position in light of the above (everything to this point has been with respect to assault weapons):

I'm somewhat torn on this. The clear part of my position is on hunting rifles and shotguns. I'm in favor of them.

Less clear is my opinion on personal defense. Personal defense is an iffy proposition on its best day (CAC's post), but as a freedom-lover, I'm generally in favor of it, if a person desires it. Like you said, though -- if you really need a gun for protection, you're probably living in the wrong neighborhood.

If I were inclined to own guns for personal defense, I'd probably buy a pump-action shotgun and a semi-auto handgun like the 9mm Beretta I shot in the navy. But given the significance of the murder problem in the US and the difficulty in having and using a concealed handgun in a public setting*, I don't think I'd shed any tears if they were banned.

Many people view fighting for or against the government to be legitimate reasons for gun ownership. Regardless of if the 2nd Amendment intended either (probably the former, probably not the latter), this is an obsolete idea that should be discarded imo.

*The wiki page on Congresswoman Giffords' shooting says a guy with a concealed carry permit and who was carrying at the time showed up at the shooting as it was ending and was thus not able to contribute. Giffords was shot in a red state in a country where there are more guns than people. The NRA, as is its purpose, supports the idea of a nation where everyone has a gun and no one uses them, but I believe that the idea that more guns = more safety requires a critical mass of guns and gun violence that we have not yet achieved. Thus I believe their theory to be flawed: even with more guns than people, the murder rate would be reduced, not increased by reducing the number of guns.

 

[OCR]

Also, genuinely curious whether you can show me some (non-anecdotal) proof that guns work for home protection. I remember hearing a statistic that it's more likely there's an accidentals shooting than a home protection, but that statistic was not verified, just stated./

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck1.html

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/peer.html



OCR

 

[CAC1001]

Nonsense. You've posted one example of a crossover, but that's it. Most hunting rifles do not look like assault rifles.

Which difference do you mean though? A gun is a gun. There are not special guns that are designed to kill people as opposed to animals. Also, I was talking about military rifles overall, not just assault rifles. Other examples of crossovers can be the German Mauser 8mm, the Lee Enfield .303 British, Springfield Model 1903, M1 Garand, Springfield M1A, SKS rifle, Mosin Nagant, etc...all of which, if one doesn't know what they are looking at, can easily "look" like a "hunting rifle."

I'd like to know honestly how many people hunt with an M-16 copy.

Not sure on this one. Also not sure what difference it really makes. One thing that should be pointed out about the AR-15 is that the reason it was not adopted for hunting initially after the Vietnam War was because the early M-16 rifles were of very poor quality and garnered a bad reputation, and also the war had such a stigma to it, and split the country so much, that a lot of soldiers just wanted to put it behind them when they returned home. The AR-15 was the first rifle to not be adopted in large scale for things like hunting by the soldiers returning home from the war who had used it. It has proven very popular with returning vets from Iraq and Afghanistan however. The modern M-16s are much better quality and the wars did not have the same stigma to them.

And in addition, you posted one very badly chosen example:

Sniper rifles. Sniper rifles are intended for one-shot-one-kill use, much like hunting rifles. They are not the same as assault rifles and often aren't even semi-automatic, such as in your example of the Remmington 700. So in this case, you're arguing against your point: Since the rifle is a military-type, but specialized for accuracy and not high firing rate or portability or other infantry type functionality, it is not the type of weapon that needs to be banned for civilian use. Hence the need for another term to describe the type of weapon that is to be banned: assault weapons/rifles.

If you had someone use a sniper rifle to snipe at people, I think you'd most definitely have people in the media questioning why are "sniper" rifles available to people. Who needs a "sniper" rifle? And so forth. That is why I cited it. The appropriate term for the guns the gun control people want to ban, IMO, would be "scary-looking guns," as that's all they ultimately are. Calling them "assault weapon" makes it sound like they're some official type of gun or something. The gun control proponents know that if they call to ban scary-looking guns, that won't gain much traction.

I'm not an expert, though, so you tell me: why is the Remmington 700 single-shot? Why the lack of a carrying handle on top? Why no flash suppressor? Why a solid stock? Could it be that all of these features affect accuracy? Indeed, if you would like all hunting rifles to be bolt-action like the Remmington 700, I'd definitely be willing to compromise on that!

By "carrying handle," if you mean the "carrying handle" on say the M16 rifle, that actually has to do with being able to aim the gun on target, not as a convenient way to carry it. I am not an expert either though, but regardless of how those features affect accuracy, I do not see why they should be banned. It should be a matter of preference for the owner.

edit: oh, and the wiki says this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_700

Recoil reduces accuracy, which is a good reason for both sniper rifles and hunting rifles to be heavier and more solid than assault rifles.

Yes; assault rifles are lower-powered than battle rifles and certain hunting rifles for this reason, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to control the weapon while firing on full-auto.

 

[CAC1001]

Hunting is the only acceptable reason to own a gun, handguns are for killing people, IMO.

Self-protection is also an acceptable reason to own a gun IMO.

What? Are you trying to say that owning a handgun is a neccessity?

I think he just means that arms ownership is a fundamental right and regarding it as merely a hobby opens it up to a lot more regulation.

 

[Evo]

I think he just means that arms ownership is a fundamental right and regarding it as merely a hobby opens it up to a lot more regulation.

And that's why we need to bring the constitution out of the dark ages and face reality. If we had won our freedom prior to the gun age, would you be arguing for swords? Also, it was meant for purposes of a militia, we have an established military/National Guard now, we no longer have the need to call on civilian volunteers. People don't really own guns now planning to be called to protect the country, IMO.

I'll agree that the 2nd ammendment covers guns if we restrict gun ownership to the same guns available at the time. Anything more advanced would require a new law. It's ridiculous what people are trying to claim, that current guns are covered under what the authors of the constitution envisioned.

 

[Skrew]

Hunting is the only acceptable reason to own a gun, handguns are for killing people, IMO.

What? Are you trying to say that owning a handgun is a neccessity?

No one "needs" to own a handgun. No one needs to own any type of gun. But owning shotguns and rifles for hunting animals, within the law, is acceptable, there is no need for anything except single shot. As far as I know, animals aren't armed and aren't able to shoot back.

If you live in fear of being gunned down and need guns with a large amount of bullets, and you aren't living in a gang neighborhood, you need therapy, IMO. If you live in a normal neighborhood, fears like this need medical attention. Seriously, your risk of slipping in the bathroom and getting killed are much more likely than getting shot, but I assume you bathe.

While the number of households with guns has decreased the number of guns owned by individuals has increased.

Also, the number of gun related injuries and deaths have gone up, the number of those related to crime have decreased. More guns = more deaths.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-19/american-gun-deaths-to-exceed-traffic-fatalities-by-2015.html

I fundementally disagree with you, while handguns are designed to shoot people, shooting people is not inherently wrong depending on the situation.

The rest of your post is a bit contradictory, if getting shot by someone isn't a problem then clearly there is no need for further gun restriction. People who accidently shoot themselves or commit suicide with guns are irrelevant when comes to passing legislation. I don't believe in protecting people from themselves.

If you don't want to own guns, if you want to place all your faith and power in others to protect and provide for you at the cost of significant freedom I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem when you argue I should follow you.

 

[CAC1001]

To expand on my position in light of the above (everything to this point has been with respect to assault weapons):

I'm somewhat torn on this. The clear part of my position is on hunting rifles and shotguns. I'm in favor of them.

How do we define a "hunting rifle" though? Plenty of ex-military rifles are popular hunting rifles, and now the AR-15 has a growing number of users in this.

Less clear is my opinion on personal defense. Personal defense is an iffy proposition on its best day (CAC's post), but as a freedom-lover, I'm generally in favor of it, if a person desires it. Like you said, though -- if you really need a gun for protection, you're probably living in the wrong neighborhood.

I agree that most people, generally, don't need to be armed, but I believe it's one right to be armed to protect themself just in case. If civil order breaks down due to a natural disaster, that also I think is a use.

Many people view fighting for or against the government to be legitimate reasons for gun ownership. Regardless of if the 2nd Amendment intended either (probably the former, probably not the latter), this is an obsolete idea that should be discarded imo.

My understanding is the Founders intended the people to be armed both to protect the nation and to resist a possibly tyrannical government, along with purposes of self-protection and survival (hunting). Regarding whether this resistance-to-government aspect is obsolete, IMO, at this particular moment in time, the idea of the government becoming tyrannical in this nation is really very remote. But, I would also argue that the entire history of this nation is a blip in the timeline of the history of other nations and empires, and that we have no idea what the future holds, what the country will be like 100 years, 150 years, 200 years down-the-line.

Regarding whether citizens could mount a resistance against a modern tyrannical government with a modern military, I think they could. Look at Syria, where Assad has been using battle tanks, attack helicopters, bombs, artillery, infantry, etc...and still can't put down the resistance. Now he has been considering using chemical weapons, which is a real sign of desperation. Or look at China, which watches their citizens closely, and has censored their media and Internet regarding the uprisings in the Middle East over the past few years. The Chinese government knows that if enough of a boiling point is reached, they could end up getting booted from power, and their people are not armed like Americans.

So I wouldn't consider the aspect of the Second Amendment for resistance to a tyrannical government obsolete per se, but I'd right now consider it a very remote thing to be concerned about. Now those who think that the current government is going to form a dictatorship ala Stalin and that they need to be armed to resist it, I think one is being paranoid if they think that.