Generous George disgorges less than $1 per African

[marlon]

Who ? ME ??

yes YOU

The feelings are mutual

Difficult for you to say. At least i would not gass people

marlon

 

[plus]

Yes it is. But my point is that India is overcoming its problems AND growing fast. India is WAY ahead of Africa even though both of them started at essentially the same point.

50 years ago south Korea was at the same level as african countries, but they have achieved a lot by hard work, and 50 hour weeks by THEMSELVES.

 

[Loren Booda]

Has not the U. S. provided South Korea an influx of many dollars in military aid?

 

[vanesch]

At least i would not gass people

You disappoint me

But then, I hate to say so, but your program is not workable, M. President. If you don't give me the means to execute it, I cannot work out your program ; hence, I resign from your government

 

[so-crates]

Why don't the Europeans fight anymore...?Like the 30 years war or civil wars...?

Daniel.

Because everyone knows the next war among major powers in Europe will mean the end of their civilization.

 

[marlon]

You disappoint me

But then, I hate to say so, but your program is not workable, M. President. If you don't give me the means to execute it, I cannot work out your program ; hence, I resign from your government

Oohh, you may be older then me but it does not seem to me that you have a lot of 'political talent', in my humble opinion. Saying that a certain proposition will not work and then just quit without even giving a specific reason does not make you look credible, sorry.

Disagreeing with a programme does not automatically imply that it is not realisitic or 'workable'

But in the end, let us be honest with each other and conclude : we can speak as much as we want about it, but in the end we will never do anything worthwile to solve the domestic problems in the black continent, correct ?

Yes, ofcourse that is correct.

marlon

 

[vanesch]

Disagreeing with a programme does not automatically imply that it is not realisitic or 'workable'

I didn't know you were serious about your programme , but it sounds as follows: in order to solve the problem of Africa, we, eh, have to solve it. It is as if you said that in order to avoid islamic terrorists, we should impose upon them to abandon Islam ; or that in order to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, they should abandon their religious, ethnical and cultural oppositions.

So of course if all countries in Africa change into Western democracies with a blossoming free market and if they abandon their corrupt leadership and have good universities and a well-educated population, their main poverty problem will be solved. (they might get some other problems on their hand but that's not the discussion here). IOW, once they are rich, they won't be poor...

Yes, thank you, that will work. But, smarta$$, HOW do you get there ?

"Abandon tribes". In Belgium, we are not even able to abandon our "tribes", so how are you going to do that (except, as I said, with gas ) ? How are you going to *democratically impose* a Western culture, and eradicate their religions? How are you going to fight corruption while instoring capitalism ; while most corrupt dictators are put and held in place because of Western capitalistic interests (say, the weapons industry) ?

 

[marlon]

Yes, thank you, that will work. But, smarta$$, HOW do you get there ?

It is clear to me you never followed any kind of raethorica, while being in high school. But ok, you are forgiven, hmmm,...

"Abandon tribes". In Belgium, we are not even able to abandon our "tribes", so how are you going to do that (except, as I said, with gas ) ?

Yeah right,..., what an argument...gee

How are you going to *democratically impose* a Western culture, and eradicate their religions? How are you going to fight corruption while instoring capitalism ;

We need to take the initiative and plant our big corporations in their countries. We also need to provide education. The first big step would be that our universities grant more scholarships for Africans with talent. They can come study here and apply for jobs in OUR companies. Then we need to set up our companies in their homecountry (ofcourse this goes gradually) and the Africans that studied here should be on the key positions in those implanted companies so that they can serve as a bridge between the actual company and the people that are living there. Gradually they should start hiring people from over there to do the more general work, ofcourse provided that they are given an education for their jobs in that company. We could very easily finance that because costs are low there and gradually people will gain wealth and start consuming.

Imposing our democracy is not that difficult. Just educate people from there in our universities. Once those people see the potential that they have, thanks to their degree(s), they will never want to go back to living in some inferior tribe. Basically we need to kill these retarded African societies with mere softness...

Education creates critisim and critisism eventually eliminates retarded tirranies
Education is the solution to almost all !

I think a scheme like this will be much more valuable to those people that are currently living in poverty AND to us. I aknowledge we have both a moral and ethical obligation to help out these people because our nations also harmed them very much. And yes, we certainly need to relieve these debts which are absurd.

I believe in mutual money-making but then again you will probably not agree with this.

Regurgitating moral values and blaming other rich nations will not provide food to these people table's. Pardon my French Vanesch but in my humble opinion you are nothing else then a big hyppocrite. I mean all you do (as well as the OP) is whining and blaming a society that provides your very own life-standard. Unless you abandon all that, you really do not have any right to judge others. That is why i concluded my last post by saying that in the end, there is not one single hair on your quasi-bald head that will even consider of undertaking actual action to alleviate the difficult existence of the average African inhabitant.

while most corrupt dictators are put and held in place because of Western capitalistic interests (say, the weapons industry) ?

Here we go again, go blame it on others
Again the problems are much more complicated then these typical hyppocrite left-wing statements that do not make sense. Besides, do you not feel the irony in this last sentence of yours ? C'mon...be serious. I know you do not believe this yourself Let us just blame it onto instantaneous lack of inspiration, ok ? Again you are forgiven.

marlon

 

[vanesch]

We need to take the initiative and plant our big corporations in their countries.

According to capitalist doctrine, big corporations implant themselves there were it is interesting for them to be. Now, I agree with you that opening the market (essentially the food market) would indeed make it interesting to go there, but then you hit western protectionist measures. And Art's argument was exactly that: open the market ! I'm against it, because I do not think that it is in OUR interest, for the moment. So too bad for Africa but our interests first, and that's also what the EU and the US thinks. Here, capitalism could play its role, but the West doesn't allow it to do so. Nevertheless, that was already Art's argument.
For all other corporate implants, most African countries lack essential elements, which are NOT compensated for by extremely low wages, namely security, corruption, lack of infrastructure... which make it VERY difficult for honest businesses to take advantage of implanting them over there.

We also need to provide education. The first big step would be that our universities grant more scholarships for Africans with talent.

Absolutely. I agree. But that's already the case. However, once you have talented people, educated in OUR systems, then it becomes attractive for as well Western companies, as for the individuals involved, if you let them choose, to stay here. Again, capitalism won't do. It is much more difficult to implement LOCALLY good education, when people are starving. How do you get out of that viscious cycle ?

They can come study here and apply for jobs in OUR companies. Then we need to set up our companies in their homecountry (ofcourse this goes gradually) and the Africans that studied here should be on the key positions in those implanted companies so that they can serve as a bridge between the actual company and the people that are living there.

Again, in a capitalist mindset, it is up to the company to optimise its location. As long as Africa is not attractive, it won't happen.
Also, this is just as well a source of corruption as anything else. This happens right now already. So nothing new: you just create a local elite which has good relations with the powerful and rich west, and abuses that relationship, to increase their local wealth and influence, at the expense of their fellow countrymen. How would you be yourself ?

Imposing our democracy is not that difficult. Just educate people from there in our universities. Once those people see the potential that they have, thanks to their degree(s), they will never want to go back to living in some inferior tribe. Basically we need to kill these retarded African societies with mere softness...

Dream on. Most African dictators and their court were educated in the West.

And yes, we certainly need to relieve these debts which are absurd.

That was also Art's proposal...

I believe in mutual money-making but then again you will probably not agree with this.

Yes, once they are up and running, I do. The problem is: how to get them up and running, if the only sector where they COULD compete is agriculture, and there, the borders are closed by us ?

Regurgitating moral values and blaming other rich nations will not provide food to these people table's.

I'm not saying that. I believe that the real solution is indeed to 1) erase debts, 2) open the food market. And then I don't want to apply it, because it gives us a strategic weakness.

Your only valid point is that we should help them with their educational system but as long as they are starving, that's not going to help anything. Bringing people over here, educate them, and putting them back just generates a local elite which then turns quickly into corruption.

Pardon my French Vanesch but in my humble opinion you are nothing else then a big hyppocrite. I mean all you do (as well as the OP) is whining and blaming a society that provides your very own life-standard.

I'm not ! I don't think we should send money ! We should relieve them of their debts and leave them as they are, letting them solve their own problems, which will, in the long run, be much more stable than trying to impose things. We could give a helping hand along the way, along their demands. In the mean time (in good capitalist tradition) we should only think about ourselves.

A proposition, though: there should be a "sanitary block" of all business deals which exploit the people locally, aided by the local elite (which was educated in our system).

That is why i concluded my last post by saying that in the end, there is not one single hair on your quasi-bald head that will even consider of undertaking actual action to alleviate the difficult existence of the average African inhabitant.

You understood me perfectly I think we should get rid of our moral obligations due to an unfortunate mixing in in the past, and then leave them to do whatever they want to do.

Here we go again, go blame it on others
Again the problems are much more complicated then these typical hyppocrite left-wing statements that do not make sense.

Are you claiming that most deals between the African elite and Western corporations are advantageous to their country ?

Also, you should find out if I'm left wing or right wing or bird wing: I cannot blame the West, want to send money, want to gas them, think about helping them, and block our frontiers at the same time, can I ?

 

[alexandra]

vanesch wrote:

while most corrupt dictators are put and held in place because of Western capitalistic interests (say, the weapons industry) ?

to which you respond:

Here we go again, go blame it on others
Again the problems are much more complicated then these typical hyppocrite left-wing statements that do not make sense. Besides, do you not feel the irony in this last sentence of yours ? C'mon...be serious. I know you do not believe this yourself Let us just blame it onto instantaneous lack of inspiration, ok ? Again you are forgiven.
marlon

Umm, how exactly is this a typical hypocritical left-wing statement? It is a well-known fact – and here’s some evidence from an article entitled U.S. WEAPONS AT WAR 2005:
PROMOTING FREEDOM OR FUELING CONFLICT?
U.S. Military Aid and Arms Transfers Since September 11 – the result of a study undertaken by the World Policy Institute (check out its credentials):

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Perhaps no single policy is more at odds with President Bush’s pledge to "end tyranny in our world" than the United States’ role as the world’s leading arms exporting nation. Although arms sales are often justified on the basis of their purported benefits, from securing access to overseas military facilities to rewarding coalition allies in conflicts such as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, these alleged benefits often come at a high price. All too often, U.S. arms transfers end up fueling conflict, arming human rights abusers, or falling into the hands of U.S. adversaries….

Among the key findings of this report are the following:

In 2003, the last year for which full information is available, the United States transferred weaponry to 18 of the 25 countries involved in active conflicts. From Angola, Chad and Ethiopia, to Colombia, Pakistan and the Philippines, transfers through the two largest U.S. arms sales programs (Foreign Military Sales and Commercial Sales) to these conflict nations totaled nearly $1 billion in 2003, with the vast bulk of the dollar volume going to Israel ($845.6 million).

In 2003, more than half of the top 25 recipients of U.S. arms transfers in the developing world (13 of 25) were defined as undemocratic by the U.S. State Department’s Human Rights Report: in the sense that "citizens do not have the right to change their own government" or that right was seriously abridged. These 13 nations received over $2.7 billion in U.S. arms transfers under the Foreign Military Sales and Commercial Sales programs in 2003, with the top recipients including Saudi Arabia ($1.1 billion), Egypt ($1.0 billion), Kuwait ($153 million), the United Arab Emirates ($110 million) and Uzbekistan ($33 million).

More: http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html

 

[marlon]

According to capitalist doctrine, big corporations implant themselves there were it is interesting for them to be.

Sure and that is a very healthy principle. Trust me, if you plant a McDonalds in Timbuktu, people will start eating Big Macs in no-time...VIVA consumption !It is that easy and ordinary.

So too bad for Africa but our interests first, and that's also what the EU and the US thinks

Untrue, it does not take a great economical brain to see there are a lot of potential in Africa. It is one of the most valuable continents out there and you know damn well what i am talking about.

For all other corporate implants, most African countries lack essential elements, which are NOT compensated for by extremely low wages, namely security, corruption, lack of infrastructure... which make it VERY difficult for honest businesses to take advantage of implanting them over there.

Sorry bit this is an assumption for which you do not have the proof. Now let us not degenerate in summing up anecdotes of 'i heard of a guy who ...' because you will be able to give yours and i will be able to give mine. Let us just conclude that the mere fact this is possible should say anough about the 'validity' of your argument here.

However, once you have talented people, educated in OUR systems, then it becomes attractive for as well Western companies, as for the individuals involved, if you let them choose, to stay here.

Untrue, people will return to their home country and live up to their highest potential in OUR implanted companies there. I work with a lot of talented foreigners at IMEC and they quasi all want back to their home countries after completed the stage or PhD or whatever. Their argument is as simple as beautiful : you know INDIA is home, an Indian colleague of mine once said.

Talented Africans will return because they will be able to maintain the high standard thanks to their abilities and they will get a lot of satisfaction because they will be directly responsible for getting their country ahead and make good money out of it. It is that simple/idealistic. It sure is a start.

Again, capitalism won't do. It is much more difficult to implement LOCALLY good education, when people are starving. How do you get out of that viscious cycle ?

Again, first people need to be educated out here and we need to bring over certain of our companies out there. People must start working their (crucial aspect : with the educated Africans at key positions). Then work and education will be provided over there. Just a simple example : we educate some guy and help him in obtaining a master in civil-engineering. Then a construction company of ours can go to some African country and start building roads and irrigation systems with the people there. The inhabitants will start making money and people ofcourse pay our company to 'use the roads'
Solwly, things will get going...

I never said this was going to be easy but at least it is the only way out.
Other industries are possible like making clothing, oil, gold, diamonds, steel, manufacturing wood, vacation-resorts, and so on and so on...There are always possibilities if you set your mind to it. Over the course of time, even high tech should be possible.

Again, in a capitalist mindset, it is up to the company to optimise its location. As long as Africa is not attractive, it won't happen.

Who ever said Africa is not attractive ? C'mon, this is just a lot of crap. Don't you think our companies are not present there ?

Dream on. Most African dictators and their court were educated in the West.

Untrue, and even if there are such examples then the West is not to blame and it sure does not matter what so ever.

Your only valid point is that we should help them with their educational system but as long as they are starving, that's not going to help anything. Bringing people over here, educate them, and putting them back just generates a local elite which then turns quickly into corruption.

Untrue, the general standard will improve, that is the essential part. Everybody is going to want a piece of the pie, competition will rise. THAT IS WHAT THEY NEED.

We should relieve them of their debts and leave them as they are, letting them solve their own problems, which will, in the long run, be much more stable than trying to impose things. We could give a helping hand along the way, along their demands.

yeah right, dream on, mr easy-going...

In the mean time (in good capitalist tradition) we should only think about ourselves.

Correction, capitalism is the most self-centered social model with the exception of all the others. A little deviation of Churchill's words for you.

regards
marlon

 

[vanesch]

Sure and that is a very healthy principle. Trust me, if you plant a McDonalds in Timbuktu, people will start eating Big Macs in no-time...VIVA consumption !It is that easy and ordinary.

There are many better places to eat in Timbuktu !
"La Paillotte", "Le Poulet d'or", "Amanat", ...

Untrue, it does not take a great economical brain to see there are a lot of potential in Africa. It is one of the most valuable continents out there and you know damn well what i am talking about.

I was talking about giving up our agriculture for them to have a business. We simply do not want to do so, even if purely economically, it would be very sensible. Other things play, however, which is strategic power.

Sorry bit this is an assumption for which you do not have the proof. Now let us not degenerate in summing up anecdotes of 'i heard of a guy who ...' because you will be able to give yours and i will be able to give mine. Let us just conclude that the mere fact this is possible should say anough about the 'validity' of your argument here.

Many African countries are not stable, have civil wars going on or things like that. You cannot seriously do business (except weapons business) in those circumstances.

Untrue, people will return to their home country and live up to their highest potential in OUR implanted companies there. I work with a lot of talented foreigners at IMEC and they quasi all want back to their home countries after completed the stage or PhD or whatever. Their argument is as simple as beautiful : you know INDIA is home, an Indian colleague of mine once said.

Ah, India moved to Africa ?

Talented Africans will return because they will be able to maintain the high standard thanks to their abilities and they will get a lot of satisfaction because they will be directly responsible for getting their country ahead and make good money out of it. It is that simple/idealistic. It sure is a start.

It is indeed that idealistic. WHAT DO YOU THINK WE'VE BEEN DOING ALREADY ALL THAT TIME since the end of the colonial times ? For about 30 - 40 years now ? The university of Kinshasa was one of the finest in subsaharian Africa, in 1962 already. I knew some professors who went there.

Have a look at the history record (founded in 1951):
http://unikin.sciences.free.fr/
The university of Leuven was at its foundation. But of course, you see what happens (founded in 1994):
http://www.auk-congo.edu/

Solwly, things will get going...

I never said this was going to be easy but at least it is the only way out.
Other industries are possible like making clothing, oil, gold, diamonds, steel, manufacturing wood, vacation-resorts, and so on and so on...There are always possibilities if you set your mind to it. Over the course of time, even high tech should be possible.

So apart from doing things as usual, what exactly do you propose then as magical solution, looking at your initial program ?

Who ever said Africa is not attractive ? C'mon, this is just a lot of crap. Don't you think our companies are not present there ?

In Ivory Coast, Liberia, Ethiopia, Congo, Rwanda, Angola, Sudan, ... ?
Except for extractors of primary mineral ressources, and weapon dealers, who is doing business there ?
Honest businesses (rightly) abhor civil war.

Untrue, and even if there are such examples then the West is not to blame and it sure does not matter what so ever.

The west is of course not to blame ! But what I wanted to illustrate is that the social differential you introduce by sending back educated people in the West often leads to corruption.

Untrue, the general standard will improve, that is the essential part. Everybody is going to want a piece of the pie, competition will rise. THAT IS WHAT THEY NEED.

You mean, the guy who is working locally should start competing with the guy that got his education at Cambridge and plays the local bwana ?

Correction, capitalism is the most self-centered social model with the exception of all the others. A little deviation of Churchill's words for you.

The sigar is not for eating.