Germanwings 9525 Crash in French Alps

[lisab]

I don't like the tone taken in the media regarding the co-pilot's mental health issues. Many, many people struggle with depression and anxiety, and don't ever consider killing 149 people.

 

[Doug Huffman]

Murder-suicide.

In US law, murder requires mens rea intent.

 

[mheslep]

In US law, murder requires mens rea intent.

Yes, which a pilot that purposely crashes a passenger aircraft clearly has.

 

[Doug Huffman]

Yes, which a pilot that purposely crashes a passenger aircraft clearly has.

It is up the the trier of fact.

 

[Doug Huffman]

Andreas Lubitz: Knee-jerk reaction to 9/11 enabled mass murder

The ill-thought reinforced cockpit door has had catastrophic consequences
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...tion-to-911-enabled-mass-murder-10137173.html

[mod note: unreliable mental health source deleted]

 

[nsaspook]

I don't think the door is really the problem. The door is designed to handle external threats not an inside job by a 'lone gunman/nut'. The usually solution to minimizing insider threats is personnel risk level detection that failed in this case.

 

[Astronuc]

In occupations where the consequences of adverse human performance would have severe consequences such as loss of life or destruction of property, there are usually fitness-for-duty requirements. As nsaspook indicated, it failed in this case.

In consideration for such a position, one surrenders a certain amount of personal liberty.

 

[Doug Huffman]

My career was in naval nuclear power from 1969 to 1995, and I am aware of no such requirements. There was explicitly no such program for submarine qualification. I served on, and consulted as a civilian, on strategic weapons platforms to see the ineffectiveness of the Personal Reliability Program for weapons qualified personnel.

 

[Czcibor]

Andreas Lubitz: Knee-jerk reaction to 9/11 enabled mass murder

The ill-thought reinforced cockpit door has had catastrophic consequences
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...tion-to-911-enabled-mass-murder-10137173.html

[mod note: unreliable mental health source deleted]

Honestly speaking I think that was the right choice to have reinforced door:
-choosing between terrorist attack and insider job, I'd assume that insiders are more likely to be screened properly;
-insider, if really wanted could try his luck even if there is other pilot inside during landing (just one violent manuver).

 

[Doug Huffman]

How many terror incidents has a reinforced door prevented? How many murders has a reinforced door allowed?

 

[nsaspook]

How many terror incidents has a reinforced door prevented? How many murders has a reinforced door allowed?

There have been a number of people who rushed the door and attempted to get in since 9/11. Most are not your typical 'terrorist' but who knows how many people would have died if they made it inside.

On the Personal Reliability Program, like anything there are levels and limits to effectiveness but PRP or any screening program is just one level in a total safety program.
I was in the Nuclear Weapons release PRP and can tell you for a fact that if you had half of the total safe combo with all the launch authenticators, the targeting SIOP and the communications channels for the EAM messages to give to the CO and weapons officers like I and one other person on the ship did they were very intrusive on your medical/mental health screening and personal life.

The meaning of Reliability in the program is not if you are completely stable. Reliability means you will actually pull the trigger when ordered so a little crazy is perfectly acceptable.

 

[davenn]

more really disturbing facts have come to light overnight

investigators interviewing the co-pilot's ex-fiancée have been told that he had bee flying over the crash site in smaller aircraft ( glider etc)
in the weeks prior to the crash. He broke off the engagement the day before the crash.

It was a well and truly premeditated act rather than a spur of the moment brain snap

Dave

 

[Astronuc]

How many terror incidents has a reinforced door prevented? How many murders has a reinforced door allowed?

No telling how may events were discouraged because they didn't happen.

more really disturbing facts have come to light overnight

investigators interviewing the co-pilot's ex-fiancée have been told that he had bee flying over the crash site in smaller aircraft ( glider etc)
in the weeks prior to the crash. He broke off the engagement the day before the crash.

It was a well and truly premeditated act rather than a spur of the moment brain snap

Dave

It certainly seems that it was a premeditated act - means, motive and opportunity (MMO). He certainly had prior opportunities, but instead waited until he had sole command of a commercial aircraft. I can't imagine that he simply forgot that there we 149 others on the aircraft.

 

[Doug Huffman]

No telling how may events were discouraged because they didn't happen.[ ... ]

So the Department of Homeland Severity argues. Meanwhile we have sold much liberty for a temporary security, and will achieve neither. MOLON LABE applies to much more than merely arms.

 

[Tobias Funke]

I can't imagine that he simply forgot that there we 149 others on the aircraft.

Of course it was premeditated. You rarely see them labeled as such, but acts like this are basically terrorism with (sometimes) no real political motive. This guy obviously intended to destroy over a hundred random families and inflict massive psychological trauma for whatever reason. I don't think the typical "mentally ill lone wolf" media diagnosis is sophisticated enough to describe people like this.

 

[russ_watters]

My career was in naval nuclear power from 1969 to 1995, and I am aware of no such requirements. There was explicitly no such program for submarine qualification.

It would depend on the particulars of the job description, but there is, for example, a section in the security clearance requirements/screening on mental health, not to mention personal conduct:
http://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/security-clearance-jobs/security-clearance-eligibility.html

How many terror incidents has a reinforced door prevented?

Though it is difficult to isolate the specific impact of the door, the combined effects of the various security enhancements since 9/11 prevented hundreds of hijackings.
http://aviation-safety.net/statistics/period/stats.php?cat=H2
Just some quick stats from that:
-From 2005-2014 there were 26 hijackings, with three deaths resulting.
-From 1991-2000 there were 185 hijackings, with 156 deaths resulting. The vast majority of the deaths were from one incident.

Note, that hijackings by Islamic terrorists were "in fashion" in the mid-'70s to mid-'80s (around 30 a year), until countries started taking a hard line on negotiating with them. They were mostly in the teens before 2001.

Frankly, this is clear evidence to me that our security procedures prior to 9/11 were severely lacking and the security procedures since have been a very good thing.

How many murders has a reinforced door allowed?

I'm not aware of any other incidents like this since security was enhanced after 9/11 -- do you know of any? I hadn't heard of Pacific Southwest 171 until you posted it, but while you called it aircrew suicide, you were mistaken: it was a passenger murder/suicide. The murderer was a recently fired tickting agent, not a pilot, so the security door would have prevented it. It was in 1987. Not sure if it gets counted as a "hijacking".

I'm not sure statistics on aircrew suicide even exist due to the rarity, but found this via google (2013 incident):

An airplane crash that killed 33 people last month in Namibia may have been pilot suicide, an extremely rare occurrence that brings to light an infrequently studied phenomenon: the mental health of aircrew.

http://www.ibtimes.com/pilot-suicide-when-its-captain-who-crashes-plane-1519756

However, this is actually a studied phenomena and the wording of this report implies that it essentially never happens in commerical aviation:

[from the intro]
This paper is a 10-year review (2003-2012) of aircraft-assisted pilot suicides and is a follow up to our previous 1993-2002 review. From 2003-2012, there were 2,758 fatal aviation accidents; the NTSB determined that 8 were aircraft-assisted suicides (all involving the intentional crashing of an aircraft). This number is half of what we found in our previous 10-year review.

All pilots involved in these aircraft-assisted suicides were male, with a median age of 46 years (range 21- 68, mean 42 ± 16 years). The pilot was the sole occupant in 7 of the 8 aircraft that were intentionally crashed. Four of the 8 pilots were positive for ethanol, and 2 of the 8 were positive for Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressants.

Based on the limited accidents conclusively attributed to suicide, death by the intentional crashing of an aircraft is an infrequent and uncommon event and has declined compared to the previous 20 years.

[from the conclusion]
All of the suicides involved general aviation operations. Most of the suicide-pilots were experiencing significant stressors in their lives at the time of their demise. Toxicological data indicate that 50% (four of eight) of all aviation-assisted suicide-pilots involved at least one, if not more, disqualifying substances, and 38% (three of eight) had impairing levels of such substances in their system. No information provided during the medical certification process identified suicidal ideation or evidence of depression. The suicides presented here were likely precipitated by events occurring after the medical certification process had been conducted, reviewed, and completed.

http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/51000/51100/51188/201402.pdf

The lack of a locking door probably would have prevented this, but like nsaspooksaid, the screenings failed here also. Either way, this is such a rare event that except for the "two in the cockpit" rule that already exists in the US, I'm not sure any other changes are warranted.

Meanwhile we have sold much liberty for a temporary security, and will achieve neither.

Nonsense. Passengers have no right to access to a cockpit, so adding a lock to the door does not decrease liberty. But it certainly enhances security.

 

[russ_watters]

No telling how may events were discouraged because they didn't happen.

There's stats for everything there can be a stat for.

The only real assumptions in my analysis of the stats were:
1. Terrorism activity overall did not change (up or down) from the '90s to today. If anything, I think it may have increased.
2. There were no other factors besides the security enhancements that limited the number of hijackings.

 

[magneticnorth]

Cockpit doors are a good idea , and they work. It is human lapses that have caused this tragedy .The co-pilot was ,as is now confirmed -deemed unfit to fly due to psychological problems , and my first question would be , why such an employee could go to a private doctor and have complete control over the results of the examination . If this pilot was deemed unfit to fly what would be the impetus in such a mind to report this to his employer ? If ordered for a physical , and it is done by a private doctor , should those results be by rule, done on company documents to be returned and evaluated before allowing the pilot to fly ?? Or even better pilots to be seen by Company doctors . It just seems so ridiculous that such critical information could be so easily with held .

 

[Astronuc]

Struggle to explain what motivated co-pilot in doomed flight
http://news.yahoo.com/struggle-explain-motivated-co-pilot-doomed-flight-065119052.html

I don't know if it was aggressive or a passive act. It would seem though that targeting others (strangers) for a violent death is aggressive.

I was thinking of the folks on the plane who were going about their daily lives, who had nothing to do with Lubitz, then suddenly become victims to his deranged mind.

Is it depraved indifference to the lives of innocent folks?

 

[MidgetDwarf]

Make it illegal for pilots to go to the restroom. Maybe use the old chamber pot/bottle method of excrement relievement? It is degrading to have to defecate infront of a person, however this is the easiest solution I see to this problem. It would be too expensive to design the aircraft in such a way, that their is a bathroom inside control pit. It is also dangerous if the pilot is going back and fourth to the restroom.

 

[rootone]

investigators interviewing the co-pilot's ex-fiancée have been told that he had bee flying over the crash site in smaller aircraft ( glider etc)
in the weeks prior to the crash.

I don't get this.
If the intention is suicide/mass murder why would he want to investigate some particular site on which to crash the plane?
Surely it wouldn't be in order to consider possible risks to people on the ground.

 

[Borg]

I don't get this.
If the intention is suicide/mass murder why would he want to investigate some particular site on which to crash the plane?
Surely it wouldn't be in order to consider possible risks to people on the ground.

One of the warning signs of someone who is considering suicide is suddenly putting their affairs in order like he did by breaking off his engagement with his girlfriend. It doesn't surprise me that he put similar effort into determining where he was going to crash the plane.

 

[jim hardy]

"He never talked much about his illness, only that he was in psychiatric treatment," she told the paper, adding they finally broke up because she was afraid of him.

"He would suddenly freak out in conversations and yell at me," she recalled. "At night he would wake up screaming 'we are crashing' because he had nightmares. He could be good at hiding what was really going on inside him."

http://news.yahoo.com/germanwings-c...nt-planned-big-gesture-091746926--sector.html

In the final moments of the Germanwings flight, Lubitz overflew the major turning points for gliders in the region, flying from one peak to another, according to local glider pilots.

http://news.yahoo.com/german-pilot-visited-glider-field-near-crash-child-100115628.html

Sounds like he went back to his favorite place.

He must've been in a trance.

 

[davenn]

"

I don't get this.
If the intention is suicide/mass murder why would he want to investigate some particular site on which to crash the plane?
Surely it wouldn't be in order to consider possible risks to people on the ground.

who knows what was going through his mind, he was obviously "as nutty as a fruitcake" and had at least figured out that those mountains were enroute for an upcoming flight.
one also has to ask why take a plane load of people with him ?? rather than just commit "hari kari" in his hotel room or some other way ?

Its just so dreadful

D

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

one also has to ask why take a plane load of people with him ?

Solo suicide is a controversial debatable topic. Taking 150 with you is not. It's just flat out mass murder and I hope he is tagged with it more than just the suicide part.

 

[davenn]

Solo suicide is a controversial debatable topic.

probably not a topic for this thread but would have been interested in your thoughts on that

Solo suicide is a controversial debatable topic. Taking 150 with you is not. It's just flat out mass murder and I hope he is tagged with it more than just the suicide part.

uh huh ... and how/when does it get classed as a terrorist act ? ... no ... because no weapons guns/bombs weren't used ?Dave

 

[Astronuc]

probably not a topic for this thread but would have been interested in your thoughts on that

uh huh ... and how/when does it get classed as a terrorist act ? ... no ... because no weapons guns/bombs weren't used ?

Dave

I believe the aircraft became the weapon of convenience, or the mountains, or both.

 

[russ_watters]

uh huh ... and how/when does it get classed as a terrorist act ? ... no ... because no weapons guns/bombs weren't used

Terrorism is ideologically motivated murder, for coercive purposes. And the chosen weapon is not a key part of what makes a (mass) murder terrorism.

 

[mheslep]

I don't know if it was aggressive or a passive act.

I suspect you do know. If I carelessly but intentionally ran you down because you happened into my path, racing my vehicle while you crossed the street, I think you would know well whether my action was depraved, or not.

 

[dlgoff]

I have a hard time hearing (from transcripts) this:

Bild says passengers can be heard screaming in the background as Sondenheimer shouts: “For God’s sake, open the door!” The captain is then heard trying to smash through the heavily reinforced door while shouting: “Open the damn door!”

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-captain-yelled-at-lubitz-20150329-story.html

I don't know what tears me up most. Screaming passengers or the captains attempt to smash through the door.

 

[mheslep]

One day I’m going to do something that will change the whole system, and everyone will know my name and remember it.

Yes, right up there with the other pathetic, ego-maniacal mass murderers.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

However, we praise George Washington.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I don't know what tears me up most. Screaming passengers or the captains attempt to smash through the door.

Agreed. It's one thing to have several seconds of realization, but several minutes must have been unbearable. Please let me go quickly.

 

[magneticnorth]

One glaring fact remains , and it is one which will put Lufthansa in a position of high liability . Why was the physical exam left in the hands of a private physician , that physician having no compelling protocol to immediately advise Lufthansa , rather giving the patient a note which would most likely curtail or ruin his career ? Even a medical form to be completed by the physician and returned by Lubitz to his employer BEFORE being allowed to fly ?

 

[Astronuc]

Andreas Lubitz 'repeatedly urged Germanwings captain to leave him alone' before setting A320 on path to French Alps crash
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...20-on-path-to-french-alps-crash-10141732.html

The Germanwings co-pilot who is believed to have deliberately crashed his plane into the French Alps made repeated efforts to get the captain to leave him
alone in the cockpit, it emerged today.

Certainly a lot of evidence indicating a deliberate act.