Got my BS in Physics but I don't know what to apply for

[Zap]

I want to say that it is really common to go to university with no idea what you will do after. I would say that the majority of PhD candidates at my school have absolutely no idea why they are there, but they have the belief that somehow it is going to be worth it in the end. When I ask them about their goals, they usually don't have any besides passing dissertation or some really vague concept of some job in what they call "the industry." This, among other things, made me absolutely despise graduate school and believe that the majority of PhD students are somehow mentally challenged. I understand how painful a PhD can be, and I respect the fact that anyone with a PhD has gone through hell and back. However, I don't understand their motive behind it, unless it is because they are from a third world country.

I should also note that I did have a goal while in college. I wanted to be a research scientist and do the whole PhD thing, but then I changed my mind. If I had stayed on that path, I probably would’ve been a clueless PhD candidate looking forward to a job in “the industry.”

 

[Vanadium 50]

believe that the majority of PhD students are somehow mentally challenged

I know you have had some difficult times, but there is no need to write nonsense like this.

 

[symbolipoint]

I want to say that it is really common to go to university with no idea what you will do after.

Understandable, and very common. Students change their major field a few times before settling on something.

I would say that the majority of PhD candidates at my school have absolutely no idea why they are there, but they have the belief that somehow it is going to be worth it in the end.

Not credible, because applying to a PhD program needs so many lengthy qualifications and then being decisive about what you will do in the PhD program. High grades, earning letters of recommendation, deciding what particular area to study, finding official advisers, knowing why you want some PhD program and activity and explaining it clearly in writing. If any forum members who were in PhD programs had "absolutely no idea why you were there", tell us now.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Not credible, because applying to a PhD program needs so many lengthy qualifications and then being decisive about what you will do in the PhD program. High grades, earning letters of recommendation, deciding what particular area to study, finding official advisers, knowing why you want some PhD program and activity and explaining it clearly in writing. If any forum members who were in PhD programs had "absolutely no idea why you were there", tell us now.

This has not been my observation for less selective PhD programs. The lower-tier PhD programs do tend to admit more students without particularly impressive backgrounds or applications. The difference in student quality between the top 50% of programs and the bottom 20% is huge.

 

[Natuurfenomeen22]

This has not been my observation for less selective PhD programs. The lower-tier PhD programs do tend to admit more students without particularly impressive backgrounds or applications. The difference in student quality between the top 50% of programs and the bottom 20% is huge.

Broadly speaking, some PhD's are in for it because of the experience or the fact that there are simply grants for it.

Most of the PhD's I have met are very much putting effort into it and seem to have a plan, but not all have this quality ;)

Getting into a PhD is not easy either, not in my experience at least.

So to the OP, just see what skills you might be missing and work from there.

 

[symbolipoint]

This has not been my observation for less selective PhD programs. The lower-tier PhD programs do tend to admit more students without particularly impressive backgrounds or applications. The difference in student quality between the top 50% of programs and the bottom 20% is huge.

Broadly speaking, some PhD's are in for it because of the experience or the fact that there are simply grants for it.

Most of the PhD's I have met are very much putting effort into it and seem to have a plan, but not all have this quality ;)

Getting into a PhD is not easy either, not in my experience at least.

So to the OP, just see what skills you might be missing and work from there.

Just how do such students get into those "lower tier" PhD programs? Grades history? Pass any specifiable examinations? Personal letter of interest/Statement of Intent? Any needed recommendation letters?

 

[gleem]

I should also note that I did have a goal while in college. I wanted to be a research scientist and do the whole PhD thing, but then I changed my mind. If I had stayed on that path, I probably would’ve been a clueless PhD candidate looking forward to a job in “the industry.”

You haven't been the only one. An AIP survey tells us that in 2017 there were about 8300 BS awarded yet there were over 14000 physics seniors nearly the same as a survey in 2015. This pattern goes back many years. So it would seem that quite a few changed their minds.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Just how do such students get into those "lower tier" PhD programs? Grades history? Pass any specifiable examinations? Personal letter of interest/Statement of Intent? Any needed recommendation letters?

Few lower tier programs have a hard cut-off on the PGRE and GRE scores, so there really is no failing grade on these. And I've written my share of luke warm recommendation letters and read my share of uninspired personal letters/statements of intent. Yet if they have at least a 3.0 GPA, all these students have gotten in somewhere. So, the suggestion that some level of quality is actually required for admissions to these lower tier programs is inaccurate. The only firm requirement of these lower tier programs is the undergraduate GPA, and with grade inflation and grade gifting these days, a 3.0 GPA in many undergraduate physics programs is not much of an indication of quality. Sure, there are some platitudes and purported convictions and motivations in the statements of intent, but there is no reliable mechanism for admitting institutions to discern which are true expressions of long-held convictions, and which are hastily thrown together the night before the applications are submitted.

 

[Natuurfenomeen22]

Just how do such students get into those "lower tier" PhD programs? Grades history? Pass any specifiable examinations? Personal letter of interest/Statement of Intent? Any needed recommendation letters?

Like Dr. Courtney also said, basically GPA and other basic qualifiers, which should be taken with a pinch of salt. I've seen multiple times where people are really good at taking tests, but not much else.

Anyway, we seem to digress a little. Most PhD students are above 90% of the students IMHO and thus very capable.

 

[gleem]

Most PhD students are above 90% of the students IMHO and thus very capable.

Getting back to those AIP surveys, there are about 8400 BS degrees conferred each year. Of those about 3300 are admitted to grad school.or 40% of BS grads. So you have to be dipping down into the B range. Being a B student doesn't mean that you are not capable.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Of those about 3300 are admitted to grad school

The other relevant number is something like 6000 people take the Physics GRE. So one can conclude that about twice as many (a wee bit less) people who want to go to graduate school (at least badly enough to pay a few hundred bucks for the GRE) as actually get in.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The other relevant number is something like 6000 people take the Physics GRE. So one can conclude that about twice as many (a wee bit less) people who want to go to graduate school (at least badly enough to pay a few hundred bucks for the GRE) as actually get in.

I'm not sure how big a piece of the pie it is, but I do know I tend to recommend students take the PGRE (and often other grad school admissions tests like the MCAT or LSAT as applicable) as they are knocking on doors and testing the waters regarding next steps after graduation. So I would not conclude that taking the PGRE indicates a firm intent to attend graduate school. Also, there may be some number of students who are admitted to grad school but then don't go for various reasons, including:
1. Insufficient scholarship, assistantship, or fellowship money. I tend to recommend students not accept admissions offers in physics grad programs that require taking on additional debt. If there is not enough money to keep the ship afloat, better to pass in most cases.
2. Family needs. A pregnancy, marriage, or other family need (or desire) often leads students to re-evaluate priorities between taking the PGRE and accepting an admissions offer to grad school.
3. More appealing opportunity. Perhaps a job or grad school in a different area (medicine, law, other science or engineering).

I think most physics majors with decent GPAs SHOULD take the PGRE as part of evaluating possible paths after graduation. Waiting until they have firmly decided to go to graduate school is rather late, because it often only gives them one chance to take it, and it also leaves too little time to consider and prepare for other options if the PGRE score suggests the student is not a good fit for grad school.

Overall, I think the "path preparation" discussions and consideration should usually be happening as early in the college years as they tend to do in the high school years. We don't wait until most students are in the 11th or 12th grade to begin discussing whether they want to go to college, which colleges they should consider, and what they may want to major in. (In fact, I tend to recommend a first try of the ACT in 9th grade to improve these discussions and preparations.) By their third semester in college, I am talking to science majors about paths after graduation, and if grad school is part of the possibilities, I am asking, "When do you plan to take the GRE?"

 

[Zap]

I can only speak from my experiences, which have not been inspiring when talking with PhD students or professors. Though, I do attend a lower tier school. I'm sure if you went to MIT or even some place like ASU, things might be different.

 

[grandpa2390]

A 2.8 GPA in Physics from most Louisiana schools is pretty underwhelming for a job candidate. (I am from New Orleans and graduated from LSU.) I tend to steer most students I mentor away from Louisiana universities, as their academic rigor has declined considerably over the past 30 years. Positive paths to employability are much more likely with GPAs above 3.5 with a BS in Physics from most Louisiana schools. Below a 3.0 screams mediocrity and is really a tough spot.

My advice? Use free (and inexpensive) online programs and learn to program on your own time. Create a few meaningful projects and release your source code to the public domain so you have it to point to on resumes and interviews. Until you improve your marketable skill set, your best chances are in the food, retail, hotel, and gaming industries. There are also programs to transition you into a high school science teacher.

I didn't go to LSU. My understanding is that it is an easier school, but I doubt my gpa would be a 3.5. I'd most definitely have a 3.0 from my own school if not for unfortunate events... had I been able to go to LSU, I would have done ChemEng
I spent a couple of semesters in a rough spot. I took classes that I shouldn't have taken. Took courses when I should have taken the semester off. I have to live with that. I trudged on. I wasn't going to dropout and quit. I decided my degree might be worthless, but I was going to have it at least.

That's the past, I accept my choices, I did what I could with the resources I had. Now I'm trying to figure out where to go next. What to do next. I don't want to go to grad school, I can't afford it. And it wouldn't open anymore doors for me anyway.

I'm looking at programming languages to learn. Javascript seems to be most popular?

I think the real issue is unrealistic expectations of mediocre graduates rather than low employability. Perusing the marketing materials of several second and third tier physics departments shows how they are fostering these unrealistic expectations with statements such as:

that's common for every university/college and their programs. They all tout how their programs, from AC Techs to Physicists have huge marketability... then you get online and see that the majority of people can't find work. it's just part of the system.

 

[grandpa2390]

Doing some more thinking about this, a student needs to think about what kind of job he wants when he finishes a degree such as BS. Degree in Physics. To not do this kind of thinking nor search for information about it, is not very good. This might be more a problem of younger people choosing such a degree than of older, more experienced people choosing same degree. You need to have some idea what kind of job you want and make course choices that will help qualify you for such jobs. Otherwise, maybe get some vocational training or earn a vocational certificate. You want to have practical skills and useful knowledge so that you are hireable for something.

Thought about it for 8 years as I worked on my degree. Couldn't, and can't, figure out what I'm going to do. Right now, I'm looking into education. It's the only thing that's ever appealed to me.

 

[grandpa2390]

I Disagree. People interested in a physics degree don't seem to care what happens after they get it (or at least don't do any significant research), so poor results don't feedback into fewer undergrad students. The low employability of the physics BS has been a regular discussion on this board for at least fourteen years, so it's not like it's a secret.

It wasn't a secret. But I had no real alternatives. It's not like I'd be guaranteed a job with any of the other majors I could have chosen.

 

[grandpa2390]

I don't think it's fair to compare students from different majors like that. Physics students consistently have some of the highest SAT scores of any major, and (in my experience) they tend to be much stronger students than average. This is especially true at low prestige schools where a lot of students will be struggling to pass math classes that are at the level of remedial middle and high school math, while the physics majors have to learn things like partial differential equations as just part of one class. It's like a whole different university.

To make a broad generalization- physics tends to attract students who are smart and diligent, but naive. So they study hard and pass a lot of difficult classes, then get a tough reality shock when they have to apply for non-academic jobs. The professors are like that too so they're not too good at mentoring students who aren't planning to become physics professors. The new graduates struggle because they have no practical experience or training, but do end up OK eventually just because of their natural gifts, and that's reflected in the graph you posted where the physics majors have a huge salary range compared to most of the others. (Math majors also have a huge range, since that seems to be pretty similar to the physics major in a lot of ways)

The OP of this thread has a lot more work experience than the average new graduate, so I'm kinda surprised he'd make a thread like this. But I guess it's just hard for everyone. My advice for him is to go into teaching high school physics, since he expressed an interest in teaching and there does seem to be jobs open for that (as long as you're willing to move). He could also look for data analyst jobs, which are pretty broad and hire people with a lot of different backgrounds as long as they can read spreadsheets.

That would certainly describe me. smart and diligent, but naive. and throw in a couple of semesters that I should have sat out, or took on a smaller workload, rather than being naive and diligent and pushing myself to try and get through and get done... and you get my gpa. Which isn't as bad as other physics majors in my school, from all appearances, it seems I was ahead of the curve, but it is rendering my degree pretty unmarketable.
But I want to try teaching high school, the school is interested in me... maybe that will work out for me, and it won't matter anymore. :)

and it seems to me, based on research and experience, that what you are describing is accurate. those who make the bigger bucks tend to already have excellent skills in other areas. like software development. and pinning their success on a degree in Physics is misleading.

I'm going to look into the data analyst jobs. For my work experience, part of my issue is that I have a disability that prevents from working in hazardous jobs that I would be great at. and my physics degree overqualifies me for others :(. So I'm left in this crack. I can't get well-paying jobs because I am either disabled or overqualified, or underqualified.

 

[grandpa2390]

Do you really think GPA matters that much? I don't think a high GPA from a third tier school in physics is going to be much different than a low one, unless you want to go to graduate school. What probably matters more is your ability to network your way into an internship, like at LANL or Raytheon. You'll have it made after that. I guess LANL and Raytheon have GPA requirements ... but, internships and experience are still more important.

The last time I checked, the GPA requirement for LANL is 3.2, so it's not like amazing. That is mediocre in physics, at best. At Raytheon, I think it is a 3.5, which is good. Anything lower than a 3.0 is pretty crappy, and I think you'll have trouble finding work with any degree.

But I graduated with a 3.66, and I am pretty much in the same position. I wanted to work for the government and make bombs, but it has been difficult to get into it. I would move to the middle of nowhere and make bombs, but I still don't get an interview. I am still trying. The data analyst stuff is a good bet. There are tons of those jobs. It seems pretty cool, too. Technical sales is a job. Pharmaceutical sales is another. I don't know what else you can do with a physics degree. Becoming an engineer is pretty tough, but might be possible. How could you apply your physics degree to engineering?

at my university lower gpas in physics are common. Your 3.66 may not seem like much to you, but it is pretty good in comparison. As I said. Had a couple of rough semesters, with all that was going on in my life, I was struggling just get to the end. if not for 5 courses that I should have dropped/not taken in the first place, I'd be at a mediocre 3.2. but there's nothing I can do about that now except get some experience under my belt.

I think many of us believe and are told that things will work themselves out as long as we go to school and get good grades. I think many of us also think that we will have our choice of job offers after graduation. I also think many of us took out loans irresponsibly thinking we could pay them off with a good job afterwards. We ask our professors, "what can I do with x degree in some weird theoretical stuff?" They respond with "Whatever you want!" We see motivational posters telling us that you will succeed in x degree. Why study x degree? Become a problem solver! Whatever that is! We have everyone telling us, "Wow, you are such a good student. You are going to be successful." We convince ourselves that good student is synonymous with success and turn a blind eye to the fact that we're being robbed by financial aid services, because it feels good to be "successful." It feels good to be told that you're smart and the world is your oyster. When graduation nears and we finally start looking for jobs, we find out that none of our classes are directly applicable for the positions that we're applying for, but we apply anyway, because we are a fresh grad, and we think we are a hot commodity. After some time, we make a post similar to OPs and wallow in despair. Eventually, I suppose we have to settle for something, anything?

The school needs to focus more on providing at least an awareness of real job opportunities and resources to get started in those jobs to their students. I don't think it is sustainable the way it currently is. People may not want to attend university anymore. I think it has already lost a lot of respect and prestige. I actually paid a thousand dollars for a class that was suppose to be about preparing for graduation, and it was total nonsense. They are money grubbers and money dumpers foremost. The students come after, in last place.

that's exactly it. and this is all schools and all programs. From trade schools to universities. My PTEC degree is worthless. I spent 2 semesters, took 18 hours one semester and 21 hours the next semester. got straight A's. Can't do anything with it.

My degree holds me back from some opportunities, but they aren't that many. It's not like I looking on the job boards and finding hundreds of opportunities requiring a 3.2. If I had your degree, my position would still be the same. I took out loans to help support myself while working jobs to pay for school, and taking on greater course loads than I should have, and taking courses that I wasn't qualified to take. I did this because I was smart, hard-working, and naive. I was/am in bad poverty and drank the kool-aid. Took many unnecessary risks because I believed the hype, that if I could just graduate... everything would be ok in the end.

 

[grandpa2390]

You have to decide what job you want, prepare for it, and then go after it. Or failing that be willing to cast a wide net in a wide field (as I did).

What did you do?

 

[grandpa2390]

I was a bit cynical in my last post. I think a physics degree is pretty good for working as a civilian for the department of defense. You just have to know what you want to be doing, like previously mentioned. It's also pretty good for a lot of different stuff. You just need to acquire some skills related to what you want to do and then you can get there with your physics degree. Right now, I am talking to people in data analytics and the department of defense. It's hard to get into the national labs, but that is also possible. I am talking to someone from one of those, too. I guess you just have to keep trying and try to keep a positive attitude.

I'm going to look into data analytics. what kind of skills do you need for that? should I brush up on statistics? what does the job require of you?

When I was 18, I didn't know my arse from my elbow. In all honesty, I was a complete and utter diaper baby. I wasn't coddled by my parents. My parents were relatively strict, but I was definitely sheltered from the world and had no idea what I was doing. I can blame a lot of my problems on my parents. They weren't really active in my life and took a back seat to it. I sometimes think that my birth wasn't planned. I am a twin and have an older brother. So, if you can imagine accidentally getting pregnant with twins. That might make you resent them. They didn't have a lot of money when me and my twin were born. Now, they were stuck with taking care of three kids. I am almost certain that my father resented me because of that. I barely have a relationship with him or my mother. I never felt close to them. I hardly ever talk to them. But that is something I should discuss with them at a later time. However, I am also responsible for my own actions. A physics degree really isn't that bad, if you think about it. It's a decent degree, and it can get you to many places, depending on where you decide to go. Unfortunately, I still have a lot of growing up to do, even though I'm almost 30 ... I wonder about this a lot. I plan on discussing it with my parents soon, and I have to forgive them and become an adult. I believe I am on my way. It is better late than never, I suppose.

Additionally, my parents never seemed to have their act together. My father has a PhD in microbiology and was unemployed for most of my memory. My mother had a bachelor's degree in biology but switched from job to job in unrelated things, even working at Walmart for a significant period of time. I don't know why they would always push school on me. It didn't seem to work out for them. I don't know why they thought it would work out for me. To this day, my father pushes me to get a PhD. For what? To be unemployed? I don't get it. Sometimes, you find yourself in a soup with a perfect recipe for disaster, but I didn't do half bad, considering that.

I'm sorry. I agree with you. I'm not complaining about the mistakes I made and the choices I made, and the environmental factors that led to my struggles. When things got rough, I just pushed harder when I should have taken it more easily. my gpa would be higher. I don't regret getting an education. I don't think college is necessarily supposed to prepare us to make "a good living." If I never get a decent job with my education, I don't think it was wasted. I learned a lot from it. I believe I am a better person for it. I experimented with different subjects. One of the Fs that's brought my gpa down below where it should be, is when I attempted to learn spanish. And I attempted to learn it in a course I found out was half a semester long. I didn't know it until I was enrolled. I should have dropped it immediately. But I thought if I worked hard enough... lol. I was naive. And once my gpa fell below a 3.0, and once my college career began dragging itself out... I started taking more and more unnecessary risks. I gambled.

I learned a lot, but nothing that will help me in starting a career it seems. The stuff I learned, is the kind of stuff that makes me a great employee to have when given a chance. Once again, I'm not complaining. I certainly understand why hiring managers pass over my application. If I were in their position, and I were going through the hundreds of applications, and I didn't know me... my application would probably fall off the desk too. I just need to find something that can get my foot in. I'm not expecting 50k a year. just something to get experience while paying my bills. Which, conveniently, I am accustomed to living on pennies.

And I still have much much more to learn. I'm just trying to do it without spending money. With what I hope is a wiser outlook, I considered grad school the other day. And I considered it just long enough to realize that more education, and more debt, will do me no good.

I want to say that it is really common to go to university with no idea what you will do after. I would say that the majority of PhD candidates at my school have absolutely no idea why they are there, but they have the belief that somehow it is going to be worth it in the end. When I ask them about their goals, they usually don't have any besides passing dissertation or some really vague concept of some job in what they call "the industry." This, among other things, made me absolutely despise graduate school and believe that the majority of PhD students are somehow mentally challenged. I understand how painful a PhD can be, and I respect the fact that anyone with a PhD has gone through hell and back. However, I don't understand their motive behind it, unless it is because they are from a third world country.

I should also note that I did have a goal while in college. I wanted to be a research scientist and do the whole PhD thing, but then I changed my mind. If I had stayed on that path, I probably would’ve been a clueless PhD candidate looking forward to a job in “the industry.”

Well my Physics Department Advisor did right by me in this regard at least. He advised me that unless I want to do research, or teach at the University, a PhD is a waste of time and energy. He also criticized the idea that some have of getting multiple PhDs.

 

[grandpa2390]

Things could be worse. I could have a bad credit score.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I didn't go to LSU. My understanding is that it is an easier school, but I doubt my gpa would be a 3.5. I'd most definitely have a 3.0 from my own school if not for unfortunate events... had I been able to go to LSU, I would have done ChemEng

The only two Louisiana schools with decent cases to be harder than LSU in Physics are La Tech and Tulane. Tulane is telling the truth, La Tech is not. If you were at Tulane, odds are attending LSU would have been an option. So I'm betting you were at a school that really is nowhere near LSU in terms of their quality. So odds are, your degree is from a La university that is not even in the top tier Physics programs in Louisiana, and that's pretty poor. (Side note: even though we were Louisiana residents and I graduated from LSU in Physics, I would not allow my sons, both Physics majors, to attend LSU, because of grade gifting and other slides in academic quality since I attended in the 1980s. Students who can do better than public colleges in Louisiana, SHOULD do better than public colleges in Louisiana. LSU is the best physics program, but the best physics program in Louisana is not good enough for my own sons.) If you went to any other school than Tulane, you were simply not told the truth about LSU being easier in Physics.

Another rabbit trail: My dad wanted me to major in ChemEng at LSU. The day before I submitted my application, I asked his permission to list my intended major as physics. We both knew it would be a far less employable major in Louisiana. But he sensed my real love, my true passion for physics, so he gave his permission and blessing. But you have to rock a physics major to be anywhere near as employable in Louisiana as a 3.0 GPA Chem Eng major from LSU.

I'm looking at programming languages to learn. Javascript seems to be most popular?

Python seems to be the thing these days and has been the first language my sons learned. Transitioning to other languages as needed for research/employment opportunities has been straightforward.

that's common for every university/college and their programs. They all tout how their programs, from AC Techs to Physicists have huge marketability... then you get online and see that the majority of people can't find work. it's just part of the system.

The key question that goes unasked is "What GPA is needed for good employability in a given major at a given school?" In Physics, the answer is almost always above 3.0, and at most Louisiana schools, it's above 3.5.

If you have education on your heart, then go for it. Your GPA will not hold you back. I remember all my high school science and math teachers fondly, and I am grateful for them. I've spent a few years myself teaching high school, and I'm giving hundreds of volunteer hours each year either helping out at local high schools or developing curricular resources to make their jobs easier. But do a good job. Don't gift grades. Be their hardest teacher. They may hate you in the present (I did). But they'll love you later (I do.)

 

[grandpa2390]

The only two Louisiana schools with decent cases to be harder than LSU in Physics are La Tech and Tulane. Tulane is telling the truth, La Tech is not. If you were at Tulane, odds are attending LSU would have been an option. So I'm betting you were at a school that really is nowhere near LSU in terms of their quality. So odds are, your degree is from a La university that is not even in the top tier Physics programs in Louisiana, and that's pretty poor. (Side note: even though we were Louisiana residents and I graduated from LSU in Physics, I would not allow my sons, both Physics majors, to attend LSU, because of grade gifting and other slides in academic quality since I attended in the 1980s. Students who can do better than public colleges in Louisiana, SHOULD do better than public colleges in Louisiana. LSU is the best physics program, but the best physics program in Louisana is not good enough for my own sons.) If you went to any other school than Tulane, you were simply not told the truth about LSU being easier in Physics.

LSU might be harder in Physics. I was just speaking in general about the reputation of the school as a whole. Don't take it personally. Even if LSU were inferior, it makes no difference. I doubt I would have gotten better than the 3.2 I should have gotten at UNO.
I couldn't afford to go to LSU anyway. Tulane would have been more feasible to me than LSU. I live around Tulane. Moving to Baton Rouge just wasn't an option for me as I own my own home and have been desperately supporting myself since before I started school.

Another rabbit trail: My dad wanted me to major in ChemEng at LSU. The day before I submitted my application, I asked his permission to list my intended major as physics. We both knew it would be a far less employable major in Louisiana. But he sensed my real love, my true passion for physics, so he gave his permission and blessing. But you have to rock a physics major to be anywhere near as employable in Louisiana as a 3.0 GPA Chem Eng major from LSU.

I was left to pick my major from what was available to me. I switched a few times and settled on Physics because I believed the hype that it would open the most doors. and I spent the remainder of my college career till now trying to figure out what I'd do after I graduated. Process Engineering and Teaching are the only two careers that appealed to me. Though I could probably make a decent lawyer.

Python seems to be the thing these days and has been the first language my sons learned. Transitioning to other languages as needed for research/employment opportunities has been straightforward.
The key question that goes unasked is "What GPA is needed for good employability in a given major at a given school?" In Physics, the answer is almost always above 3.0, and at most Louisiana schools, it's above 3.5.

I don't know anybody at UNO with a 3.5... I'm sure they exist. But I think they are uncommon enough to still be exceptional.

If you have education on your heart, then go for it. Your GPA will not hold you back. I remember all my high school science and math teachers fondly, and I am grateful for them. I've spent a few years myself teaching high school, and I'm giving hundreds of volunteer hours each year either helping out at local high schools or developing curricular resources to make their jobs easier. But do a good job. Don't gift grades. Be their hardest teacher. They may hate you in the present (I did). But they'll love you later (I do.)

yeah me too. I don't blame you for not wanting your kids to go to a Louisiana school in general. I wish I had grown up in a state with an education system that wasn't ranked #50. But a low gpa from a Louisiana school doesn't mean I'm incapable. In my case I fell on hard times. If i could just prove myself. If I had the opportunity, and especially if I had a family, I would definitely consider moving to a state like Massachusetts. Their education system is supposed to be phenomenal.
Though if it weren't for MIT Opencourseware, I might not have passed the harder Physics courses. By the end of my college career, I was pretty much learning the subjects from any source other than my professors. MIT Opencourseware was a major one of those sources. If only the curriculum had been the same because those professors are phenomenal.

I don't want to get trapped discussing the past. I got a poor gpa at a third-rate school (or fourth-rate compared to LSU?). These are the facts, I have to live with that. I need to figure out how to climb out now. So python. I believe that is the one taught by the professor in The Great Courses. I watched one of the lectures, but I wasn't sure about it. With your confirmation and experience, sounds like I ought to go through that lecture series.

What else would you recommend to someone in my position? What other skills can I learn to make myself more marketable? A lot of job postings I see don't even ask for gpa. So I can't even claim that gpa is bringing me down at this moment. My lack of marketable skills in the bachelor degree world seems to be my first problem.
Teaching is still my goal. I just need to have a backup plan.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

yeah me too. I don't blame you for not wanting your kids to go to a Louisiana school in general. I wish I had grown up in a state with an education system that wasn't ranked #50. But a low gpa from a Louisiana school doesn't mean I'm incapable. In my case I fell on hard times. If i could just prove myself.

Yep, you have to prove yourself. Fortunately, the level of proof you need to teach in LA is pretty low.

I got a poor gpa at a third-rate school (or fourth-rate compared to LSU?). These are the facts, I have to live with that. I need to figure out how to climb out now. So python. I believe that is the one taught by the professor in The Great Courses. I watched one of the lectures, but I wasn't sure about it. With your confirmation and experience, sounds like I ought to go through that lecture series.

UNO is not far below LSU, but claims to be better are exaggerated. Students I've mentored have done well with Coursera's Python offerings: https://www.coursera.org/courses?query=python

Not that I'm sure they are better than what you're looking at, just that I know that they are pretty good (and free.)

What else would you recommend to someone in my position? What other skills can I learn to make myself more marketable? A lot of job postings I see don't even ask for gpa. So I can't even claim that gpa is bringing me down at this moment. My lack of marketable skills in the bachelor degree world seems to be my first problem.
Teaching is still my goal. I just need to have a backup plan.

The gaming industry has an ugly side to it in the NO area, but they have a real need for programmers with security skills. Build some skills on the security side of programming, and (if you can stomach it) gain some industry experience. I can't really stomach the gaming industry: too many slime balls. But some friends and family have had good experiences. (Some also have had bad experiences.) Especially if you are stuck in NO, give it some thought.

 

[grandpa2390]

Yep, you have to prove yourself. Fortunately, the level of proof you need to teach in LA is pretty low.

that's funny and sad at the same time :(

UNO is not far below LSU, but claims to be better are exaggerated. Students I've mentored have done well with Coursera's Python offerings: https://www.coursera.org/courses?query=python

Not that I'm sure they are better than what you're looking at, just that I know that they are pretty good (and free.)

You know, LSU might be better. I say might only because I have no experience at LSU and am unqualified to make definitive statements. If the professors at LSU speak fluent english, then it is already a step above UNO. I don't want to sound like a mean person; I respect anyone who learns a foreign language because I failed. But it is really difficult to learn from someone who has trouble communicating complicated ideas.

The gaming industry has an ugly side to it in the NO area, but they have a real need for programmers with security skills. Build some skills on the security side of programming, and (if you can stomach it) gain some industry experience. I can't really stomach the gaming industry: too many slime balls. But some friends and family have had good experiences. (Some also have had bad experiences.) Especially if you are stuck in NO, give it some thought.

I'm not sure if I'd be able to stomach it. But I tried being a car salesman, I'll try that too if I need and get the opportunity. I'm not absolutely stuck in NO though. if I can get a decent job, then I can put a little money into my house and rent it out. Some part of me wants to get out of Louisiana, I just need to have security before I do in the form of a job lined up or an emergency fund I can live on till I get a job.

I'm going to start working my way through python. thanks!
worst case scenario, I can always teach english in China.

 

[russ_watters]

What did you do?

I'm a mechanical engineer. I wanted to be an aerospace engineer, since I was about 8 and figured out what it was. For years when I was a kid my parents tried to talk me out of it because it is too narrow. For better or worse I washed out of it and landed in mechanical engineering because they are related.

The biggest problem for a generalist is accepting that you are a generalist and being decisive about it. I still had a bit of a dream of working in aerospace, but what I decided I wanted most was a life, which meant moving out of my parents house and buying a few key items -- a telescope in particular -- to live the lifestyle I wanted. For that I needed a job. Any quality job would do. So I didn't just apply for mechanical engineering jobs at aerospace companies, I applied for every mechanical engineering job and even non-specific tech-sounding job in a 50 mile radius of Philadelphia that I met the qualifications for. I also applied for jobs that didn't exist. Overall, hundreds in the course of the 2+ months it took to land a job. I got four interviews and three offers and I evaluated the job as a job and career to make my decision. Because I correctly predicted that as long as it was technical it would keep my interest and had a career path it would provide for me what I wanted for a lifestyle, I'm satisfied with the work. And more than satisfied with the pay.

It's worked out quite well.

The first sentence of your OP says this:

I'm not really sure what I am a qualified for, and when I look on job boards like zip recruiter, the only jobs i seem to find are truck driving and sales jobs.

This is nonsense. Beyond nonsense - it's absurd. Those jobs aren't even a good fit. Either you're doing something wrong in the way you search (probably) or the apps are terrible (maybe). Back when Monster was new and people still looked at newspapers, people didn't type "physicist bachelors" into a search engine, you could look at job listings that said something like "any science, engineering or technical bachelors degree". Such a search most certainly does not return "truck driver" as a good fit.

 

[grandpa2390]

I'm a mechanical engineer. I wanted to be an aerospace engineer, since I was about 8 and figured out what it was. For years when I was a kid my parents tried to talk me out of it because it is too narrow. For better or worse I washed out of it and landed in mechanical engineering because they are related.

The biggest problem for a generalist is accepting that you are a generalist and being decisive about it. I still had a bit of a dream of working in aerospace, but what I decided I wanted most was a life, which meant moving out of my parents house and buying a few key items -- a telescope in particular -- to live the lifestyle I wanted. For that I needed a job. Any quality job would do. So I didn't just apply for mechanical engineering jobs at aerospace companies, I applied for every mechanical engineering job and even non-specific tech-sounding job in a 50 mile radius of Philadelphia that I met the qualifications for. I also applied for jobs that didn't exist. Overall, hundreds in the course of the 2+ months it took to land a job. I got four interviews and three offers and I evaluated the job as a job and career to make my decision. Because I correctly predicted that as long as it was technical it would keep my interest and had a career path it would provide for me what I wanted for a lifestyle.

It's worked out quite well.

The first sentence of your OP says this:

This is nonsense. Beyond nonsense - it's absurd. Those jobs aren't even a good fit. Either you're doing something wrong in the way you search (probably) or the apps are terrible (maybe). Back when Monster was new and people still looked at newspapers, people didn't type "physicist bachelors" into a search engine, you could look at job listings that said something like "any science, engineering or technical bachelors degree". Such a search most certainly does not return "truck driver" as a good fit.

What I was doing was just looking at anything and everything within a certain mile radius. I didn't want to narrow my search down too hard because I might miss something and indeed those were the results when I posted. and looking on the government run job board, that is still the majority of jobs posted. I just search "bachelor" now. and that gives me only jobs that require a bachelor's degree. which excludes jobs like truck driving. mostly stuff like teaching, teaching in china. medical careers, insurance etc. different things, but not much that I think I qualify for. Maybe I ought to just apply and let them decide whether I'm qualified?

Maybe I'm underestimating myself, and my skills, or overestimating these positions?

that's what my post was about. What should I be searching for? what keywords should I be punching in. because if I just look at everything, then there's nothing. and when I type in keywords like physics or bachelor, i might be missing out on jobs that I could do.

one thing I don't like about the apps, is that they don't seem to allow to exclude results. like if I type into google jobs -sales. you know what. that does. that doesn't seem to work in job search boards.

 

[russ_watters]

What I was doing was just looking at anything and everything within a certain mile radius.

So, how many miles and in what area?* It would require an extremely narrow search in an extremely poor area to yield "truck driver" as the top option you qualify for.

...notwithstanding the fact that you are not qualified to be a CDL truck driver of course. You could potentially get a CDL job that includes training if they are desperate (I think many are), but the only actual job you'd currently be qualified for in truck driving would be delivery truck driver. You could pick a random block of mostly abandoned buildings in Detroit as your search area and find a delivery driver job that literally anyone can do. I certainly hope you are casting a better net than that!

I didn't want to narrow my search down too hard because I might miss something and indeed those were the results when I posted. and looking on the government run job board, that is still the majority of jobs posted. I just search "bachelor" now. and that gives me only jobs that require a bachelor's degree. which excludes jobs like truck driving. mostly stuff like teaching, teaching in china. medical careers, insurance etc. different things, but not much that I think I qualify for. Maybe I ought to just apply and let them decide whether I'm qualified?

Maybe I'm underestimating myself, and my skills, or overestimating these positions?

Huh? I entered "bachelor" into Zip Recruiter's main search and got 12,000 jobs in a 25 mile radius of me (default distance)*. I looked at the first two pages; some were teachers, but none were in China. I see two or three on the first two pages (of 10) that are quality jobs. I'm having a really hard time processing how you could be having so much trouble with this.

Maybe I'm underestimating myself, and my skills, or overestimating these positions?

that's what my post was about. What should I be searching for? what keywords should I be punching in. because if I just look at everything, then there's nothing. and when I type in keywords like physics or bachelor, i might be missing out on jobs that I could do.

one thing I don't like about the apps, is that they don't seem to allow to exclude results. like if I type into google jobs -sales. you know what. that does. that doesn't seem to work in job search boards.

I'm really having a hard time here figuring out why you are having such a hard time. Even if you cast a ridiculously wide net by just typing "bachelor" and nothing else, you can still go through probably 10 listings a minute to screen them yourself. In an hour you can screen several hundred and in a week you can screen all 12,000. I don't mean to be condescending here, but do we need to walk you through how to use a search engine? I guess I'm willing to take a quick swing at it if it is really necessary...

...though it doesn't really speak well of a science graduate's resourcefulness. Maybe you need to learn about the job of finding a job. A book that helped me was "what color is your parachute".

*Oh, New Orleans. Only moderately better than Detroit and only 2,500 jobs that just say "bachelor". Are you willing to move in order to increase your chances of finding a quality job by a factor of 50?

Here's one useful tip if you aren't aware: the qualifications are a wishlist. With unemployment near its theoretical minimum, companies are desperate to fill vacancies. Many jobs that "requires" up to 5 years experience may hire a quality applicant with zero.

...and another: Get business cards. My first boss was impressed by mine and even though they are starting to go away they are still a great "hook".

 

[grandpa2390]

So, how many miles and in what area? It would require an extremely narrow search in an extremely poor area to yield "truck driver" as the top option you qualify for.

...notwithstanding the fact that you are not qualified to be a CDL truck driver of course. You could potentially get a CDL job that includes training if they are desperate (I think many are), but the only actual job you'd currently be qualified for in truck driving would be delivery truck driver. You could pick a random block of mostly abandoned buildings in Detroit as your search area and find a delivery driver job that literally anyone can do. I certainly hope you are casting a better net than that!

i don't want to be a truck driver, and I don't live in Detroit.

Huh? I entered "bachelor" into Zip Recruiter's main search and got 12,000 jobs in a 25 mile radius of me (default distance). I looked at the first two pages; some were teachers, but none were in China. I see two or three on the first two pages (of 10) that are quality jobs. I'm having a really hard time processing how you could be having so much trouble with this.

I'm really having a hard time here figuring out why you are having such a hard time. Even if you cast a ridiculously wide net by just typing "bachelor" and nothing else, you can still go through probably 10 listings a minute to screen them yourself. In an hour you can screen several hundred and in a week you can screen all 12,000.

Well I did post that a month ago, and search results change over time and location. ziprecruiter results also factor in your background and previous search histories/applications. At least that is my theory. the original post was a month ago when I was looking at teaching positions. And the majority of my background is in Sales (retail, automobiles) and Education (tutoring, substitute teaching, etc) Things have changed. Right now at this moment, I'm not seeing many teaching jobs at all.
Mostly Project Managers/Coordinators/Schedulers/Engineers, Engineers, Customer Service, Software Developers, etc. is what is mostly coming up tonight on Ziprecruiter. Probably because I haven't applied to teaching positions in a few weeks... Earlier today at the top of the list was career china jobs (sponsored). but I already scrolled through them this morning so they aren't showing up anymore. Truck driving jobs were extremely popular in my results at one time because I spent a long time searching for "operator" positions. I live in an area with lots of industry, and I am overqualified to be an operator(according to Shell). unfortunately, operator also appears in truck driving jobs as "owner operator". took a bit of time for ziprecruiter to decide I was no longer interested in being an operator, so now I see those jobs less frequently.

But this is besides the point. I go through all of them the way you describe. and then, on indeed, since I've caught up, I just log in once a day and see the new job posts for every search I've done. and so eventually I stop seeing the same ones over and over. There's no need to get heated or confused over something I said a month ago. It was true then, it is no longer true now. I was just wondering what you did, I didn't mean to start a fuss over job searching.

 

[russ_watters]

i don't want to be a truck driver, and I don't live in Detroit.

This doesn't have anything to do with what you were responding to, so I'm having trouble telling if this response is serious or not. To be perfectly clear; I'm sincerely trying to help. Can you please clarify if this response was intended as a joke or a serious response.

 

[grandpa2390]

This doesn't have anything to do with what you were responding to, so I'm having trouble telling if this response is serious or not. To be perfectly clear; I'm sincerely trying to help. Can you please clarify if this response was intended as a joke or a serious response.

that was a serious response. With the level of detail you gave, I thought you were seriously trying to inform me that I was not qualified to drive a rig. As for Detroit, I wasn't certain if you were being literal or figurative. if you were saying I could find that kind of job anywhere in Detroit (because you thought I lived there) and hoped I cast a better net than that, or if you were saying I could find that job even in the most random poor locations. In the context that I thought you were seriously trying to inform me that I was unqualified to drive a truck, I decided I would go with the former interpretation. I apologize for misunderstanding.

 

[russ_watters]

that was a serious response. With the level of detail you gave, I thought you were seriously trying to inform me that I was not qualified to drive a rig. As for Detroit, I wasn't certain if you were being literal or figurative. if you were saying I could find that kind of job anywhere in Detroit (because you thought I lived there) and hoped I cast a better net than that, or if you were saying I could find that job even in the most random poor locations. In the context that I thought you were seriously trying to inform me that I was unqualified to drive a truck, I decided I would go with the former interpretation. I apologize for misunderstanding.
[emphasis added]

Yes, it was an extreme hypothetical in response to an - intentional or not - absurd premise. You basically said "this is the best I can do with my situation" when in reality the example you gave was basically the worst you could do with any situation. Your own example had nothing to do with your situation and my example was an attempt to amplify that to show you that it had nothing to do with your situation.

To focus more: I'm still not certain if the truck driving example in original post was intended to be serious, but based on your previous post I believe you were. If I search for "operator" and I get "truck driver" I would consider that a failed search that is unworthy of mention, not a surprising match that is worthy of top billing. ...I've now actually done that search and I see that "operator" yields only blue collar results, and certainly is a failed search that should have been unworthy of mention.

 

[russ_watters]

Entering "Bachelor science" yields 600+ in the New Orleans area and this is the third hit:
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/jobs/dxc-technology-c88345ef/data-scientist-entry-level-early-career-51154411-3d1cf35f

Data Scientist Entry Level/ Early Career 51154411
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/c/DXC-Technology/Jobs New Orleans, LA, USA
Benefits Offered
401K, Dental, Medical, Vision
Employment Type
Full-Time

DXC Technology seeks a Data Scientist Entry Level/ Early Career.

SKILLS:

• Prefer Bachelor’s Degree in Computer Science, Statistics, Applied Math or related field.
• 0-2 years’ practical experience with SAS, ETL, Data Processing, Database Programming and Data Analytics or related education

 

[grandpa2390]

Yes, it was an extreme hypothetical in response to an - intentional or not - absurd premise. You basically said "this is the best I can do with my situation" when in reality the example you gave was basically the worst you could do with any situation. Your own example had nothing to do with your situation and my example was an attempt to amplify that to show you that it had nothing to do with your situation.

To focus more: I'm still not certain if the truck driving example in original post was intended to be serious, but based on your previous post I believe you were. If I search for "operator" and I get "truck driver" I would consider that a failed search that is unworthy of mention, not a surprising match that is worthy of top billing. ...I've now actually done that search and I see that "operator" yields only blue collar results, and certainly is a failed search that should have been unworthy of mention.

Well I'll take a blue collar job if I have to. I haven't applied for Process Operator jobs in awhile, but I saw one listed on Indeed and went ahead and applied. At this point, I don't consider myself worthy of too much. I think I agree with everyone who said, I failed out of school, my degree is worthless.

Entering "Bachelor science" yields 600+ in the New Orleans area and this is the third hit:
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/jobs/dxc-technology-c88345ef/data-scientist-entry-level-early-career-51154411-3d1cf35f

That's my third result too. I don't qualify for that position yet, though. I have to learn Python and a few other things like Doc Courtney recommended.

 

[grandpa2390]

@russ_watters I wouldn't mind that meteorology job. I love meteorology. But they want a tv meteorologist.

edit: well thanks for your help. I need to turn in. Once I learn a bit of programming, it looks like more doors will open to me.