Has all the Good Music Been Played/Copied/Completed?

[Algr]

Oh wait !

Just for fun. . . .

Most of it is in 4/4 but the middle bit is 236/991. I do enjoy a good time change.

 

[morrobay]

I guess so when stuff like this is top of charts. . Actually it's just as well this cannot be played.

 

[Jarvis323]

Most of it is in 4/4 but the middle bit is 236/991. I do enjoy a good time change.

I don't know if my math is right, but wouldn't 991th notes sound something like this?

 

[Hornbein]

I've been a musician for fifty years. I see human music as clinging to tiny islands in the sea of possibilities.

One day in Oregon I visited a wildlife reserve for migrating birds. The music of blackbirds is most impressive. It isn't a repetitive song, they improvise. They work off one another's song. They don't use human scales or rhythms at all. It is a completely different approach, and to me it sounds great.

So why is contemporary pop music bad? It has nothing to do with the possibilities being exhausted. The laws of combinatorics being what they are, that will never happen. Indeed mostly I listen to 21st century music. But NOT what comes over the radio. Through modern technology I can hear the whole world's music, even what Chinese teenagers are doing in their bedrooms. There is more great music going on than ever before. There are very talented people who don't want the hard life of a pro musician. Now they can play in the bedroom and make their money by endorsing musical instruments.

Western-style classical music is also coming out of the 20th century atonal dead end. I have heard fantastic wild new "classical" stuff at the arts college in Tokyo.

So why isn't it on mass media? It's because in the 1970's music companies did scientific studies of the preferences of ordinary people. They found that ordinary people preferred very simple music. Ordinary people don't sit down and listen to music. They don't give it their full attention. They give it hardly any attention at all. It's "the soundtrack of your life," something that sets a mood but is not a distraction, that does not draw the attention. They prefer routine, uninteresting, unemotional music. It worked: the market for music is bigger than ever. That's fine with me as long as I don't have to listen to it. They also learned that for stardom music hardly matters at all, looks is what does it. The visual sense completely dominates the aural. Good music for your video is a distraction, a drawback, a cost center, a liability.

Artists from the 1960's are selling more today than they did then! So why go to the risk and expense of developing new musical acts? It's a lot more profitable to sell the old stuff.

I have been in Japan for over a year and the musical environment is completely different than in the USA. Simple music is never heard. The background music in supermarkets and restaurants is sometimes so good I stop everything and record it. Musical performances in Tokyo might be the best in the world. It's because it is routine for kids to learn music starting at age three then practice diligently. There are little piano schools everywhere. I have heard middle school bands that were as good as music college bands in the US. This is normal. So there is a pool of millions of highly skilled musicians. Those who turn pro are the cream of this crop. They are at a level of skill that in the West is unthinkable. They have an audience of those millions of skilled musicians, so they can make a living. Another thing: they learn to actually play the stuff, not rely on Pro Tools to fake a recording. Japanese bands are starting to find a well-deserved audience in the West. They have so much skill that they are overcoming the formidable language barrier.

There is plenty of great and original music being played. But you have to go to it. It won't come to you unbidden. When I was in the US there was a summer series of ten concerts in the park. Nine of them were "tribute" bands, whose goal is to copy an act from the past. In Japan there are very few tribute bands. People want new things.

I DID hear some good original music in the USA at festivals and anime conventions. It's still around. But those acts don't make the big time any more. I suppose they have day jobs.

 

[Jarvis323]

I've been a musician for fifty years. I see human music as clinging to tiny islands in the sea of possibilities.

One day in Oregon I visited a wildlife reserve for migrating birds. The music of blackbirds is most impressive. It isn't a repetitive song, they improvise. They work off one another's song. They don't use human scales or rhythms at all. It is a completely different approach, and to me it sounds great.

So why is contemporary pop music bad? It has nothing to do with the possibilities being exhausted. The laws of combinatorics being what they are, that will never happen. Indeed mostly I listen to 21st century music. But NOT what comes over the radio. Through modern technology I can hear the whole world's music, even what Chinese teenagers are doing in their bedrooms. There is more great music going on than ever before. There are very talented people who don't want the hard life of a pro musician. Now they can play in the bedroom and make their money by endorsing musical instruments.

Western-style classical music is also coming out of the 20th century atonal dead end. I have heard fantastic wild new "classical" stuff at the arts college in Tokyo.

So why isn't it on mass media? It's because in the 1970's music companies did scientific studies of the preferences of ordinary people. They found that ordinary people preferred very simple music. Ordinary people don't sit down and listen to music. They don't give it their full attention. They give it hardly any attention at all. It's "the soundtrack of your life," something that sets a mood but is not a distraction, that does not draw the attention. They prefer routine, uninteresting, unemotional music. It worked: the market for music is bigger than ever. That's fine with me as long as I don't have to listen to it. They also learned that for stardom music hardly matters at all, looks is what does it. The visual sense completely dominates the aural. Good music for your video is a distraction, a drawback, a cost center, a liability.

Artists from the 1960's are selling more today than they did then! So why go to the risk and expense of developing new musical acts? It's a lot more profitable to sell the old stuff.

I have been in Japan for over a year and the musical environment is completely different than in the USA. Simple music is never heard. The background music in supermarkets and restaurants is sometimes so good I stop everything and record it. Musical performances in Tokyo might be the best in the world. It's because it is routine for kids to learn music starting at age three then practice diligently. There are little piano schools everywhere. I have heard middle school bands that were as good as music college bands in the US. This is normal. So there is a pool of millions of highly skilled musicians. Those who turn pro are the cream of this crop. They are at a level of skill that in the West is unthinkable. They have an audience of those millions of skilled musicians, so they can make a living. Another thing: they learn to actually play the stuff, not rely on Pro Tools to fake a recording. Japanese bands are starting to find a well-deserved audience in the West. They have so much skill that they are overcoming the formidable language barrier.

There is plenty of great and original music being played. But you have to go to it. It won't come to you unbidden. When I was in the US there was a summer series of ten concerts in the park. Nine of them were "tribute" bands, whose goal is to copy an act from the past. In Japan there are very few tribute bands. People want new things.

I DID hear some good original music in the USA at festivals and anime conventions. It's still around. But those acts don't make the big time any more. I suppose they have day jobs.

One time I was playing guitar outside and I tried to play to/with the sounds the birds were making and as close to the same key as possible. It might have been just in my head, but it seemed like they were responding/playing along with the guitar as well, and it was actually a pretty good sound.

 

[DennisN]

I see human music as clinging to tiny islands in the sea of possibilities.

I agree.

The music of blackbirds is most impressive.

I agree. And I think it is very beautiful.

 

[Hornbein]

I agree.

I agree. And I think it is very beautiful.

Kate Bush recorded a duet with a blackbird. Eric Dolphy was largely inspired by the music of birds.

On Youtube is a parrot who sings human pop music. Can't do the lyrics and doesn't stick close to the original melody but is on the beat and in tune.

 

[hutchphd]

Click Please. Universal.

 

[morrobay]

Indeed the Japanese are savvy to U.S soul music

 

[BWV]

I've been a musician for fifty years. I see human music as clinging to tiny islands in the sea of possibilities.

One day in Oregon I visited a wildlife reserve for migrating birds. The music of blackbirds is most impressive. It isn't a repetitive song, they improvise. They work off one another's song. They don't use human scales or rhythms at all. It is a completely different approach, and to me it sounds great.

So why is contemporary pop music bad? It has nothing to do with the possibilities being exhausted. The laws of combinatorics being what they are, that will never happen. Indeed mostly I listen to 21st century music. But NOT what comes over the radio. Through modern technology I can hear the whole world's music, even what Chinese teenagers are doing in their bedrooms. There is more great music going on than ever before. There are very talented people who don't want the hard life of a pro musician. Now they can play in the bedroom and make their money by endorsing musical instruments.

Western-style classical music is also coming out of the 20th century atonal dead end.

atonal music was not a dead end, it’s great stuff - particularly if it includes blackbird song

 

[morrobay]

 

[morrobay]

 

[morrobay]

 

[paradisePhysicist]

Recently I read a quote/statement by a younger (20's) male member of a modern band: apprx: All the good music has already been created,played,copied, completed... I do not think he was referring to classical but I am assuming just about everything else: pop, blues ,jazz, motown, country western. ( And in my opinion that was accomplished about 1960 to 1966)
Now for me and I am sure many others he is preaching to the choir. But what did surprise me was this statement made by a young person in the music world. Agree/disagree ?

No, but overall more restricted. An equation of this could be 1/number. As the number of pieces increases, the percent gets smaller and smaller. This is made worse with restrictive copyright which gives corporations more and more power, the argument is that "we must preserve culture" but you cannot guarantee that corporations won't defile their own IPs, as they often do.

Regardless of corporations handing out C&D's like candycanes on Christmas, we are also approaching the age of the obsolete human. AI is becoming increasingly advanced and is able to mimick music without humans being actually able to reliably detect this. Sooner or later humans will become totally obsolete and we will have to create some kind of way for humans to still feel validated and given some kind of creative artistic purpose for their lives.

 

[symbolipoint]

No, but overall more restricted. An equation of this could be 1/number. As the number of pieces increases, the percent gets smaller and smaller. This is made worse with restrictive copyright which gives corporations more and more power, the argument is that "we must preserve culture" but you cannot guarantee that corporations won't defile their own IPs, as they often do.

Regardless of corporations handing out C&D's like candycanes on Christmas, we are also approaching the age of the obsolete human. AI is becoming increasingly advanced and is able to mimick music without humans being actually able to reliably detect this. Sooner or later humans will become totally obsolete and we will have to create some kind of way for humans to still feel validated and given some kind of creative artistic purpose for their lives.

How should we react to that? What you describe is disappointing. Music as we humans find and take it comes from humans and is expected to be taken in by other humans. Machines making music according to some machined decisions? I do not know how to react, but only can say, I do not like that. Too sad I cannot find a way to discuss in finer detail.

 

[morrobay]

No, but overall more restricted. An equation of this could be 1/number. As the number of pieces increases, the percent gets smaller and smaller. This is made worse with restrictive copyright which gives corporations more and more power, the argument is that "we must preserve culture" but you cannot guarantee that corporations won't defile their own IPs, as they often do.

Regardless of corporations handing out C&D's like candycanes on Christmas, we are also approaching the age of the obsolete human. AI is becoming increasingly advanced and is able to mimick music without humans being actually able to reliably detect this. Sooner or later humans will become totally obsolete and we will have to create some kind of way for humans to still feel validated and given some kind of creative artistic purpose for their lives.

I wouldn't bet the farm on that.

 

[paradisePhysicist]

How should we react to that? What you describe is disappointing. Music as we humans find and take it comes from humans and is expected to be taken in by other humans. Machines making music according to some machined decisions? I do not know how to react, but only can say, I do not like that. Too sad I cannot find a way to discuss in finer detail.

I haven't yet thought of a solution. Have some vague idea about creating a human community sort of like one of those park looking areas you see in sci-fi shows, and somehow a community of human artists that make art regardless if whether or not robots can surpass their abilities.

I wouldn't bet the farm on that.

Ai currently needs humans to play the notes (or else uses synths) but in the future that will change with robot musicians and also more powerful simulations that allow for realistic physically simulated musical instruments.

 

[Jarvis323]

Ai currently needs humans to play the notes

Toyota's trumpet playing robot.


Toyota's violin playing robot.

Shimon, the musical improv robot​

 

[Jarvis323]

I think one major question that arises is the extent to which brains, or AI neural networks, can explore the unknown in a meaningful way.

There is some question about whether the networks are able to extrapolate outside of the space of the (embedded capabilities and training distribution). Some think that what looks like true creativity and inventiveness is actually just interpolation in a very high dimensional space.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/764258v3

If all of this is true, then it means that randomness is necessarily the real source of creativity in AI and possibly also in people. It would mean that you would create new works of art by taking interpolating inside the convex hull of the high dimensional space you're drawing from, and then you would mutate it randomly, and the result will then potentially grow the convex hull of that space (if the new generated point is outside of it).

In the case of humans, we have some advantage, because when we generate a new point outside of the convex hull, we are immediately able to test whether we like it or not. AI might one day be able to guess that however. Ultimately, the reason we like it may be due to the type of challenges it affords us when listening to it, or some mutual information it has without emotions, etc.

And, people might be able to draw from this space of not just music to get some kind of interpolated result, and then translate it into music.

Alternatively, you could just randomly generate music without any inspiration, and you might get something outside of that convex hull, but it most likely will be terrible music by human ears. There might be a small possibility it will be great. But if there are such great pieces of music which are outside the convex hull of existing music, then we probably won't find it quickly, we have to likely wait until enough mutations have occurred to expand the convex hull out into that unexplored space (unless the assumption isn't true and there is some kind of divine source of creativity).

Also, music that is outside of the convex hull might sound terrible to people just because it's too strange to us. It might not be until the convex hull reaches it that we have the perquisites to understand and appreciate it. In other words we will may evolve to like that completely new music that we wouldn't like it if we heard it suddenly without treading the path to get to it.

 

[Hornbein]

Great song written and performed by Merle Haggard, who really did spend time in prison (San Quentin). There was also a great cover of it done by Grateful Dead on their 2nd album.

2nd album, not. Maybe on their 32nd album.

 

[Mark44]

2nd album, not. Maybe on their 32nd album.

I agree it wasn't their 2nd, but it was a long way from their 32nd album. 7th album, released in 1971 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grateful_Dead_(album)

 

[jtbell]

Here's another composer who dabbled in birdsong, incorporating tape recordings of it instead of transcribing it for musical instruments:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One day in Oregon I visited a wildlife reserve for migrating birds. The music of blackbirds is most impressive. It isn't a repetitive song, they improvise. They work off one another's song. They don't use human scales or rhythms at all. It is a completely different approach, and to me it sounds great.

At one point in time my wife and I were on a James Galway kick. We would often put on his CDs and play them very loudly so we could hear it outside while we worked. Then one day a blackbird perched on the edge of the roof right over the open window. He would twist his head and lean way over to hear the music. Clearly he was liking it and often visited that summer whenever we put on any classical flute.

 

[pinball1970]

At one point in time my wife and I were on a James Galway kick. We would often put on his CDs and play them very loudly so we could hear it outside while we worked. Then one day a blackbird perched on the edge of the roof right over the open window. He would twist his head and lean way over to hear the music. Clearly he was liking it and often visited that summer whenever we put on any classical flute.

Blackbirds make decent mimics too. Perhaps they were looking for tips.

 

[Klystron]

Here's another composer who dabbled in birdsong, incorporating tape recordings of it instead of transcribing it for musical instruments:

Guessing that the composer did not live where hummingbirds reside, the rather strident horns might be better served in the first bird-human transition passage by percussive 'clicks' typical of male hummingbirds and echo-locating mammals. Many birds create interesting percussive series including woodpeckers and jays.

 

[dlgoff]

One day in Oregon I visited a wildlife reserve for migrating birds. The music of blackbirds is most impressive. It isn't a repetitive song, they improvise. They work off one another's song. They don't use human scales or rhythms at all. It is a completely different approach, and to me it sounds great.

Here in Kansas, I've noticed that they mock other birds

 

[pinball1970]

Here in Kansas, I've noticed that they mock other birds

Mock? That’s interesting.
They come across as happy birds, most crows do even the scary looking ones, so I can image them doing something like that.

I magpie kept me in sight one summer when I was walking round halls of residence as a student.

A tree was in between us but much nearer the bird we were about 30 metres apart .

I stopped and moved left, losing line of sight.

It moved left put me back in sight.

I moved again, it moved again.

The next time I move it just stuck its head round the tree. Pre vid mobiles I wish I could have caught it on camera.

It could have seen me as a threat or it could have been playing with me.

It was a big area and I would guess it did not feel that threatened.

Back on point, I do not think Messiaen would have got much in terms inspiration from a magpie, plenty from a Blackbird though.