Has determinism ever bothered you?

[TheDonk]

I have three things to say.

1) Wow, I started this thread 11 months ago and forgot about it! I wish I had kept up as it went.

2) This may not bring any comfort, but there is a way in which the universe could be determined and you can make choices. Let's say I flip a coin to make a choice. So I say that the coin is my choice, my will. Now that coin DID make the choice even though other things like the air and my flicking it caused it to choose in that way. I still made the choice. Now maybe this is just a play of words.

3) When I make a choice, I want that choice to be for a reason. For me to make logical choices based on things I know. Indeterminacy doesn't provide this. Determinism does. My choices could be caused or determined by what I know and how and what I think. I would like to think that my decisions make sense. Maybe I should be glad to live in a deterministic world.

 

[moving finger]

2) This may not bring any comfort, but there is a way in which the universe could be determined and you can make choices. Let's say I flip a coin to make a choice. So I say that the coin is my choice, my will. Now that coin DID make the choice even though other things like the air and my flicking it caused it to choose in that way. I still made the choice. Now maybe this is just a play of words.

But IF the universe is determined then the outcome of the coin flip, hence your choice, is already fixed (determined) before it takes place. It's a bit like saying a thermostat "chooses" when to switch on and off

3) When I make a choice, I want that choice to be for a reason. For me to make logical choices based on things I know. Indeterminacy doesn't provide this. Determinism does. My choices could be caused or determined by what I know and how and what I think. I would like to think that my decisions make sense. Maybe I should be glad to live in a deterministic world.

Welcome! You and I think EXACTLY alike on this.

Indeterminism does not endow free will - it only "forces" random/erratic/irrational behaviour in an otherwise rational world.

MF

 

[veij0]

I got tired reading all those posts so I don't know if you have already talked about the uncertainty of actions (what the hell is it in english? in finnish it would be Epätarkkuusperiaate...). Basically I mean the Heisenbergs theory/principle used in quantum mechanics. There is no specific state for a single particle only likely and unlikely positions and velocities. According to that there should be no determined actions cause basically even the weirdest things can happen unexpectedly. So this is in controversy with determinism because the action A caused by action B cannot be determined. Not even if you knew every possible thing there is to know about this action B and its particles. Not even if you knew all the factors (even the effect of Pluto´s gravity). So does this theory or principle (or whatever you call it) stand in the way of determinism?

I am also a determinist and I have my own answers for this but I would like to hear yours.