Help! Old PC dog has to learn new Mac tricks

[JT Smith]

I think in this context it is less about the implementation and more about the user experience. Tabs and windows aren't the issue. It's about independence. Tabs are by nature bound to a single app instance/entity. But whether a window is part of a group of windows or stands alone has to do with how it works. The question is whether the window stands alone or is bound to the others in some way.

An example: I open a text file in Windows. Then another. They are completely separate from one another. With a Mac, opening the first file opens the app that then remains open even if I close both of the files. There are a set of menus at the top of the screen that work at the level of the app, not the individual windows.

 

[Algr]

Keeping a program open without documents is useful if the program is complex and takes a lot of time and memory to load. If you close one document and then open another, you won’t be reloading the program again.

Multiple instances of programs also seems like a waste of ram. Why load the same code twice?

Sure - if they were designed badly and buggy. And the same can be said for tabbed programs where multiple files are opened by one app: if it's not designed to handle that usage, it will break!

Badly designed programs are a fact of life. But if a program opens multiple documents then you can be certain that the programmers considered that situation. It isn’t something that just automatically happens. But if ANY program can be open in multiple instances, then you can’t be sure that the programmers have considered everything that could go wrong in this situation.

 

[DaveC426913]

Multiple instances of programs also seems like a waste of ram. Why load the same code twice?

With all due respect, just because it seems that way to you doesn't make it so. You don't know or speak for the habits of others, or the programs they use.

Many programs are not RAM intensive. Small utilities, such as Command Prompt are very handy to have open as multiple independent apps running. That's just one example.

 

[JT Smith]

You can be nearly certain that programmers have NOT considered everything for all but the most trivial of programs. But code that can be used simultaneously by multiple processes is an old idea. Do you think each app has a separate copy of the OS?

I don't know what Windows did or does now when a new "instance" is opened. I suppose one could monitor memory usage and see if it's a problem. I never had a problem twenty years ago when I was using Windows 2000 on what would now be unusably primitive hardware.

 

[DaveC426913]

How does one move files between folders on a Mac?

This is my finder:

I want to move that top image into a "nephew" folder: Documents/LindenHallProject/

I see no way of accessing the target folder without moving away from and losing the source folder.

In File Explorer on a PC, that left pane would show my drive(s) and would allow me to drill down to any folder and then simply drag-and-drop from the right pane to the left pane.

 

[DaveC426913]

If you're talking about a Mac it's command-tab that shifts focus between all of the apps and tabs that are open. If you just want to cycle through the tabs of a particular app it's command-`. I can't remember the keyboard shortcuts for Windows.

Cmd-tab is weird. It looks like it's cycling between open apps, but if I choose one it is as likely to not bring-to-front.

Example:
I have six apps open: Chrome, Slack, Outlook, Notes, Finder and Teams.
Cmd-Tab shows me all six.
I am currently viewing Chrome.

• I Cmd-tab over to Teams and release, nothing happens - I'm still looking at Chrome.
• I Cmd-tab over to Slack and release, nothing happens - I'm still looking at Chrome.
• etc.
• I Cmd-tab over to Finder and release and boom - I'm viewing Finder, as expected.

What chicken-bones-and-tea-leaves configuration determines which I get to tab to and which I don't?

A feature that behaves erratically is worse than no feature at all, since it works just often enough that I keep trying it, only to waste my time madly cycling through my apps until I realize how fruitless it is and give up.

 

[jtbell]

How does one move files between folders on a Mac?

Open a second Finder window. In it, navigate to the destination folder. Drag the file from the first Finder window and drop it in the second one.

To get the second Finder window, first make sure "Finder" appears at the left of the menu bar at the top of the screen (if it doesn't, click on the Finder window that you already have open) , then choose File > New Finder Window, or hit command-N.

 

[DaveC426913]

Open a second Finder window.

Why is everything on a Mac so laborious?

Even taking simple screenshot is laborious. It dumps it on my desktop - which is fine - but why not put in my my clipboard while you're at it?

 

[DaveC426913]

So, when all is said and done, what is the preferred way to "tab" between open apps? Cmd-tab is highly inconsistent, so there must be a way Mac-adept users do it.

 

[Algr]

Why is everything on a Mac so laborious?

Even taking simple screenshot is laborious. It dumps it on my desktop - which is fine - but why not put in my my clipboard while you're at it?

So, when all is said and done, what is the preferred way to "tab" between open apps? Cmd-tab is highly inconsistent, so there must be a way Mac-adept users do it.

I usually don't tab, I use 'Mission control" instead. I press the down on the mouse wheel, and all windows shrink and uncover each other. Then I click on the window I want, and that program comes forward.

 

[DaveC426913]

It astonishes me the routine things that are so onerous on a Mac. (Do they have ANY user experience people working there?)

OK:
I have two Word docs open (or two of any application):
WP sites access is in-view,
Todo List happens to be minimized.

Is there ANY way of bringing up that minimized document - say, with a keyboard command -anything that doesn't involve me having to

1. stop what I'm doing
2. pull up the dock (which takes the longest 1.5 seconds of my life) or the top menu bar,
3. find the word icon,
4. right click on it to bring up the Word menu, and finally
5. click on my doc?

 

[Tom.G]

(Do they have ANY user experience people working there?)

Unlikely, they seem to be driven by bankers.

 

[davenn]

Rd filesAs a Mac user, this struck me as being a really bad idea when I first heard about it. Isn't this asking for data corruption when the two instances incorrectly wrote into each otrd filesher's files? I still don't remember what is achieved by doing this?

I can have open several spreadsheets, word files at the same time
Absolutely essential thing I need to be able to do.
There's never any data mixing up/corruption

 

[DaveC426913]

I can have open several spreadsheets, word files at the same time

OK, how do you move between them if one happens to be minimized? Is the any key command that will do that, or am I forced to do it the long way?

 

[davenn]

OK, how do you move between them if one happens to be minimized? Is the any key command that will do that, or am I forced to do it the long way?

Hi Dave
Sorry to hear about your hassles
I was responding to algr's comment. Was so surprised by his comment that I had to respond.
On a PC it's just Alt-Tab to move between any open programs (apps, for the youngin's)

Are you the only one at your new workplace using a Mac? There's noone else that could help with Mac functions

PS...Alt-tab works regardless of if the app is already opened or minimised

 

[davenn]

Multiple instances of programs also seems like a waste of ram. Why load the same code twice?

You still don't understand the need

 

[DaveC426913]

I was responding to algr's comment.

I know. I seized on it.

On a PC it's just Alt-Tab to move between any open programs (apps, for the youngin's)

Indeed!

Are you the only one at your new workplace using a Mac?

Not by a long shot.

There's noone else that could help with Mac functions

Asked. No one knows.

Not even the IT dept.

PS...Alt-tab works regardless of if the app is already opened or minimised

Indeed it does. In a civilized OS.

 

[davenn]

Asked. No one knows.

WOW

 

[DaveC426913]

WOW

When I went to IT (on Day One of classes starting), the guy told me "Alt-tab doesn't work if the document is closed. If it's open and minimized, it will work."

I tried to 'splain and show him that that the doc being closed wasn't the problem (because, duh), that it was a problem with open-but-minimized docs**, but I could see his eyes had glazed over, and I left without a solution.

 

[davenn]

When I went to IT (on Day One of classes starting), the guy told me "Alt-tab doesn't work if the document is closed. If it's open and minimized, it will work."

I tried to 'splain and show him that that the doc being closed wasn't the problem (because, duh), that it was a problem with open-but-minimized docs**, but I could see his eyes had glazed over, and I left without a solution.

Far out!!
They don't make IT techs like they used to
That is so bad

 

[JT Smith]

I think you have to use the mouse. Or buy an app (there's one called "Alt-tab") that will give you that ability. It is a weakness but so much of modern computer use is mouse dependent. Most people who are younger than 50 don't care about keyboard shortcuts.

 

[DaveC426913]

I think you have to use the mouse. Or buy an app (there's one called "Alt-tab") that will give you that ability.

I will do this. Everyone i ask about this tells me they have installed a utility like this.

I was gobsmacked that Mac users needed an aftermarket tool to tab between apps.

"Here's your new iCar! What? You want to turn left? No one's ever asked for that. There's a third party app you can try..."

It is a weakness but so much of modern computer use is mouse dependent. Most people who are younger than 50 don't care about keyboard shortcuts.

I used to be a rabid mouse guy, not a keyboard shortcut guy.

But there's a big difference between application-specific kb-shortcuts and OS kb-shortcuts.

I really depend on operations like app switching and doc switching to be instant and invisible, requiring zero brain cycles, only muscle-memory.

 

[JT Smith]

I was gobsmacked that Mac users needed an aftermarket tool to tab between apps.

I know that's your thesis here. But I doubt that the vast majority of Mac users care about this. They simply use the mouse.

Do you use a keyboard shortcut to put your Mac to sleep? Or to force quit a misbehaving app? How about to open the preferences for the app in focus?

Most people just use their mouse.

 

[DaveC426913]

I know that's your thesis here. But I doubt that the vast majority of Mac users care about this. They simply use the mouse.

How? Like this?

1. stop what I'm doing
2. pull up the dock (which takes the longest 1.5 seconds of my life) or the top menu bar,
3. find the word icon,
4. right click on it to bring up the Word menu,
5. click on my doc,
6. Go back to my keyboard

I could grow old and die in that time.

Most people just use their mouse.

I wonder if it's because of the nature of my work. I often have to have at least four apps/docs running simultaneously and am going between them constantly.

Perhaps your 'most people' stick to one app at a time and it isn't a big deal.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I know that's your thesis here. But I doubt that the vast majority of Mac users care about this. They simply use the mouse.

Those of us who have been here a long time will know that nothing will ever, ever change his mind. Or even get him to say "It's a personal choice, and I would have preferred it done the other way". The best we can do is wait for him to run out of steam. Yes, yes, people are doing it all wrong. We know.

I learned back in the day of the WordStar diamond that complaining that :The user interface is doing it all wrong!" is not a convincing argument. (Unlike say, "People keep typing Ctl-A when they really mean Alt-A."

 

[DaveC426913]

Those of us who have been here a long time will know that nothing will ever, ever change his mind.

Is this yet another personal dig?
This thread is 5 months old, and I have a reputation that "nothing will ever, ever change my mind"?

Or even get him to say "It's a personal choice, and I would have preferred it done the other way". The best we can do is wait for him to run out of steam.

Or not post if we have nothing constructive to add. Never mind dragging someone for being frustrated and struggling.


Congratulations Vanadium50, for being the first member in my 20 years on PF that is so regularly and unnecessarily rude that they have been put on Ignore.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Is this yet another personal dig?

Not intentionally. It's taste. You will not convince anyone that your taste is better than another's. And vice versa. Because it's taste.

This thread is 5 months old

And you're still griping that Macintoish is not to your liking. After five months, we get it.

Do you think another 5 months will change your mind? And if not, aren't you agreeing with me?

 

[PeterDonis]

Do you think another 5 months will change your mind?

Since he's being required to use a Mac for his job, it's not a matter of changing his mind. It's a matter of changing his employer's mind. Which doesn't seem likely. Given that, I sympathize with his ranting. Even more so as I have similar reactions to Apple products. Fortunately I am not required to use a Mac for work (I am forced to use Windows, which also sucks, but given the choice between suckages I will take Windows suckage over Mac suckage--for my personal computing I've been using Linux for more than 20 years now so as to avoid both). But I am required to use an iPhone and I regularly rant at it and wonder why in tarnation Apple products have any kind of reputation for usability.

 

[Vanadium 50]

t's a matter of changing his employer's mind.

That's fair. But "how do I change my employer's mind" is not really the direction this thread has gone.

I am also not a big fan of the Apple UI. But "I don't like the Apple UI" is about as useful a basis of discussion as "I don't like Brussels sprouts". (And a separate question from 'how do I get the company's cafeteria to serve them less often")

A fair comment is also "Program XYZ does not follow the Apple UI standards." However, that's not Apple's fault. I's XYZ's. Blaming it on Apple is somewhere between unproductive and counterproductive.

Audi has something called the "MMI interface", used for everything from tuning the radio to setting the air flow. For almost a decade, customers complained it was backwards: turning it CW move up the menu, and CCW moved it down. Audi's response was "you're all just wrong - this is the One Right Way To Do It." They finally relented a few years ago.

 

[PeterDonis]

"how do I change my employer's mind" is not really the direction this thread has gone.

True. But it hasn't gone the way of pure ranting either. The OP has asked specific questions and gotten specific answers.

 

[jedishrfu]

Employers consider switching to Macs from Windows boxes when they see the Forrester report:

https://www.macworld.com/article/677841/macs-are-cheaper-to-own-than-pcs-forester.html

Our lab switched from a mix of Macs and Windows (i.e., employees could choose) to an all-Windows shop with WSL for Linux access. The main reason was how Apple deployed updates for each OS version by changing the servers that deployed the changes. This required the site to change its firewall settings on a new OS version. They also removed admin access for everyone except the site admins.

Personally I preferred the Mac environment over Windows where I had to constantly request new plugins, software... when I needed to do something. Many times on Mac it was already present and ready to use.

Perhaps you could ask for a deviation to have a Windows box. A use case might be some website doesn't work and so having a windows box you could determine if it was MacOS or the website. As an example, Safari and Chrome work well with tax return software but the Brave Browser doesn't.

 

[DaveC426913]

The OP has asked specific questions and gotten specific answers.

Indeed. Every post of mine in this thread is about a specific problem I am currently having and cannot solve.

I'm not just free-range slagging all things Mac. I'm not looking for attention and I'm not just being bloody-headed.

I really need answers that I can't seem to find anywhere else, because this is for work, and it's making me look a little incompetent when I have to stop and figure out how to do a basic task that ought to be easy. The fact that no one else seems to know kind of vindicates my defense that's it not just my personal comfort zone that's at fault.

The ranting is merely a symptom of the fact that - by the time I resort to begging you guys - I am usually at wit's-end.

 

[JT Smith]

The ranting is merely a symptom of the fact that - by the time I resort to begging you guys - I am usually at wit's-end.

Wit's end? I can't help but wonder what makes you so easily perturbed. I'm not a Mac fanboy and greatly prefer to use the keyboard for a multitude of operations where I don't have that choice. But wit's end? Really?

In order to enter this post I had to go from keyboard to mouse and then back again. Oh the horror!

And if that 1.5 seconds is really as mentally excruciating as you say then consider turning off the automatic dock hide/show feature. To maximize usable screen real estate it helps if you make the icons as small as you can while still being discernible, and put the dock on the side. Of course if you have a tiny monitor (like a laptop) that might not work. In that case consider getting a 27" external monitor. Two is even better if you are constantly switching back and forth between windows.

So there's some real advice for you. But, like Vanadium, I doubt it matters.

 

[DaveC426913]

Wit's end? I can't help but wonder what makes you so easily perturbed.

What makes you assume it happens easily?

I'm zooming through a project at full tilt, hands blurring, with a deadline I'm to meet because others depend on my deliverable that has to be error-free. It gets pretty aggravating if every thirty seconds I have to grind my concentration to a halt to babysit my computer for 5 seconds, That will burn my patience pretty quick.

My job is not stressful, I'm not overworked, but simply put, I am faster than my computer is.

Maybe compare it to sailing, where you can get up a nice head of speed - if the fender wouldn't keep dropping in the water, so you have to stop and pull it out. You are stuck with the boat, and no one knows how to secure fenders on this boat. So you just keep stopping. Not no mention the boat has a half dozen other similar bugaboos that interrupt other important tasks. How long would you stay patient?

I don't really think I need to justify my frustation. Surely we can all empathize with constantly being interrupted by things you can't fix while trying to concentrate.

And if that 1.5 seconds is really as mentally excruciating as you say then consider turning off the automatic dock hide/show feature.

Ok. I'll do that. It's not great, but it solves one problem while creating another. But I'll do my best.


Does that really warrant this?

But, like Vanadium, I doubt it matters.

I mean, why so?

The thread title is apt.

I'm asking specific questions to specific problems. It's not like I'm rejecting peoples' advice. And the fact that I learn how to cope with one problem doesn't mean the next one doesn't mess me up. So I have to keep finding solutions.

Is it possible you're missing the questions and just reading the ranty bits in between?

 

[jedishrfu]

A cautionary tale of UI customization. Years ago at my old company, we were porting a new user experience on top of OS/2. Our everyday machines were OS/2 based. It had a lot customization features similar to windows.

One coworker was always tweaking his setup. He had custom icons, scripts and tools all mapped to his desktop. In contrast, i kept a minimal desktop with working files and tended to use the command line to get things done. I had custom scripts and tools accessible by command line or in rare cases the desktop.

My coworkers customizations were stired in a central SOM database similar to the windows system database.

While doong some tests of SOM on his machine he inadvertently wiped out all of his changes. They were utterly gone gone gone. He didnt take it to well. I told thats why i choose the minimal approach. He scoffed and went back reconfigure everything. It took a few days to complete.

Bottomline one should adapt to the OS youre using and not go crazy trying to make it look like windows so much.

With respect to webpage urls on the desktop they could instead be saved as favorites in the browser that appear when you create a new tab or page.