How does the time dilation is being measured using atomic/quartz clocks?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the measurement of time dilation as described by relativity theory, specifically how atomic and quartz clocks experience and measure time differences when in motion relative to an observer. Participants explore theoretical concepts, practical measurement methods, and historical experiments related to time dilation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about how time dilation can be measured, questioning whether the number of cycles in atomic clocks changes when in motion.
  • Others clarify that while the number of cycles does not change, the rate of time itself is perceived differently by observers in relative motion.
  • One participant mentions a historical experiment where clocks were flown around the world, noting that the results aligned with theoretical predictions of relativity.
  • Another participant discusses the use of frequency shifts in oscillatory signals to measure time dilation, introducing the concept of the relativistic Doppler effect.
  • A later reply elaborates on the mathematical relationships involved in measuring time dilation, including the use of the factor γ and its implications for observers moving toward or away from each other.
  • One participant references an experiment involving muons at Brookhaven National Laboratory, which demonstrated time dilation through the measurement of extended lifetimes in a storage ring.
  • Some participants highlight the implications of these measurements for modern technologies like GPS, which must account for relativistic effects to maintain accuracy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the existence of time dilation and its implications, but there are multiple competing views on the specifics of measurement techniques and the interpretation of results. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the clarity of how these measurements are practically conducted.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the direct measurement of time dilation factors and the dependence on specific experimental setups. There is also mention of unresolved mathematical steps in the derivation of time dilation effects.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying relativity, experimental physics, or the practical applications of time measurement in technology such as GPS systems.

geordano
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I understand time dilation exists according to relativity theory.
But what I'm not able to understand is this statement, "clock is ticking faster/slower on a moving object compared to observer".
How is that possible to measure it? or how does the clock (atomic/quartz) it experience the time difference? Because, let's say for atomic clock, the International System of Units (SI) has defined the second as the duration of 9192631770 cycles of radiation corresponding to the transition between two energy levels of the caesium-133 atom. Does number of cycles change when the atomic clock moves in order to observe the difference in time? Or more simply (lets say quartz clock) I'd imagine, frequency of quartz crystal (the physical characteristics) would be same no matter how fast it moves? Then how can we measure the time difference accurately. I'm sure I'm missing something and I'd really appreciate any insight to that.
 
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Well the number of cycles of the atomic vibrations does not change. What changes is the rate of time itself. If you watched someone traveling at 0.866c you would see the time between their "ticks" as twice as long as yours. It is not a mechanical effect on the clocks but a 'stretching' of the time dimension (accompanied by a compression of the spatial dimension along the direction of travel) So if your friend on the ship can blink his eyes 5 times a second while he is at rest with respect to you, then when you watch him travel in the ship he will blink them 5 times in the same time it takes his atomic clock to 'tick' 9192631770 times. But it would be 2 seconds in your time. Another thing to contemplate is that he sees you as moving, not him. Therefore your clocks are moving slowly in his frame of reference. Moreover, neither of you would be wrong!
 
Thanks for the reply, one question though. Realistically, how are we measuring these differences?
 
geordano said:
Thanks for the reply, one question though. Realistically, how are we measuring these differences?

If an observer measures the frequency shift in an oscillatory signal coming from a transmitter which is in motion wrt to it, the shift is given by γ(1-v/c). This is different from the non-relativistic value (1-v/c) by the factor γ. I don't think a direct measurement of the time dilation factor is possible, but I could be wrong. Someone will soon tell us if this is the case.
 
geordano said:
Thanks for the reply, one question though. Realistically, how are we measuring these differences?
In 1971 they carried out an experiment flying clocks around the world to test relativity. At the Equator the rotational velocity of the Earth is about 1700 kph in the Eastward direction. By putting clocks on aircraft and flying them around the world they expected clocks going Eastward to lose time relative to a clock that remained on the ground and clock going Westward to gain time. They also expected an additional effect due to General Relativity and altitude that would speed up the clocks equally in both directions. The actual results were close to the the theoretical predictions of relativity. The elapsed time of the clocks flown Eastward was less than the elapsed time on the reference clock that remained on the ground. See http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/airtim.html#c1
 
Mentz114 said:
geordano said:
Thanks for the reply, one question though. Realistically, how are we measuring these differences?
If an observer measures the frequency shift in an oscillatory signal coming from a transmitter which is in motion wrt to it, the shift is given by γ(1-v/c). This is different from the non-relativistic value (1-v/c) by the factor γ. I don't think a direct measurement of the time dilation factor is possible, but I could be wrong. Someone will soon tell us if this is the case.
The factor γ(1-v/c) is identically equal to √((1-v/c)/(1+v/c)), the expression for Relativistic Doppler effect for two observers moving directly away from each other at v/c. So for the case of v/c = 0.866, that factor is 0.268. This means that as each observer compares the other ones clock rate to their own, they see it ticking at 0.268 of their own or for each of their own ticks, the other one ticks 3.732 times. This is the same period that omega-minus described when you take into account the light transit time. The period is the reciprocal of the rate. Measuring the period or the rate of the moving clock allows you to calculate the time dilation factor which is 1/γ or √(1-v/c).

To see how this is done, I'm going to use the common term β for v/c and D as the Doppler factor. So for the case of the observers moving away from each other, we start with the Relativistic Doppler Factor:

D = √((1-β)/(1+β))

But we need to know β from the measured Relativistic Doppler Factor D, so we do a little algebra:

D2 = (1-β)/(1+β)
(1+β)D2 = (1-β)
D2+βD2 = 1-β
β+βD2 = 1-D2
β(1+D2) = (1-D2)
β = (1-D2)/(1+D2)

So this tells us that if we measured a Relativistic Doppler Factor of 0.268, we can calculate the speed to be:

β = (1-D2)/(1+D2) = (1-0.2682)/(1+0.2682) = (1-0.0718)/(1+0.0718) = 0.9282/1.0718 = 0.866

Now we want to plug that value of β into the Time Dilation Factor:

√(1-β2) = √(1-0.8662) = √(1-0.75) = √(0.25) = 0.5

That's how the measurement of time dilation would be done (along with some calculation) for the specific case of two observers traveling inertially away from each other.

If the observers are traveling toward each other, then the Relativistic Doppler effect is inverted:

D = √((1+β)/(1-β))

which means they each see the other ones clock ticking faster than their own but when they factor out the light transit time, the time dilation factor is the same.

So let's do a little more algebra:

D2 = (1+β)/(1-β)
(1-β)D2 = (1+β)
D2-βD2 = 1+β
-β-βD2 = 1-D2
-β(1+D2) = (1-D2)
β = -(1-D2)/(1+D2)

Now this is almost the same thing we got for the observers moving away from each other, the only difference being the sign change but when we calculate the Time Dilation Factor, it comes out the same due to the value of β being squared. So even though in the case of the two observers approaching each other and they see each others clock ticking faster than their own, when they factor out the light transit time, they get the same value for time dilation.
 
yuiop said:
In 1971 they carried out an experiment flying clocks around the world to test relativity.

These early relativity test using atomic clocks led to todays GPS system. Clocks on GPS satellites need to be accurate to 30ns or so continuously. Both special relativity (the satellite is moving) and general relativity (satellite is further from earth, less G), each cause timing errors in the order of microseconds per day. Compensation for both of these effects are included in the calibration and station keeping of the satellite.
 
As this thread has come to the fore, I see that I made a mistake in my previous post which is fixed here:
ghwellsjr said:
The factor γ(1-v/c) is identically equal to √((1-v/c)/(1+v/c)), the expression for Relativistic Doppler effect for two observers moving directly away from each other at v/c. So for the case of v/c = 0.866, that factor is 0.268. This means that as each observer compares the other ones clock rate to their own, they see it ticking at 0.268 of their own or for each of [STRIKE]their own[/STRIKE] the other ones ticks, [STRIKE]the other one[/STRIKE] their own clock ticks 3.732 times.
 
geordano said:
I understand time dilation exists according to relativity theory.
But what I'm not able to understand is this statement, "clock is ticking faster/slower on a moving object compared to observer". How is that possible to measure it?
Physicists at Brokkhaven National Laboratory stored muons (lifetime 2.2 microseconds) at a gamma of about 29.4 in a storage ring, and stretched out (dilated) the lifetime to about 64 microseconds and measured it. See http://www.g-2.bnl.gov/hepex0401008.pdf
 
  • #10
How is that possible to measure it?

It is a phenomena that SEEMS strange when you first meet! In some sense it will always
remain strange, but you'll accept it...a little like like a 'strange' friend you get used to...and you to them! Two views of things.

It is measured by COMPARING the elapsed times of clocks from different frames.
A good clock carried by YOU always ticks at the same rate. A good clock carried by someone else always ticks at the same rate for that observer, locally. But when one clock either accelerates and returns, or one clock is placed within a different gravitatonal potential, and then returned for comparsion at the same place and time, different times will have elapsed! Those coincident clocks, back together again will then remain ticking at the same rate.

You can visualize different tick rates as seen by observers in different frames here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_d...nce_of_time_dilation_due_to_relative_velocity

Some math and other examples are also provided in the article.

Regarding GPS clock issues, When I used to boat in Maine where there is loads of frequent fog, I elected two GPS receivers and separate displays to insure reliability when navigating in fog, one was WAAS and the other was DGPS...They use different satellites and different clock correction schemes, so I figured I'd have better reliability against failure. About once every other year or two one or the other would fail to plot my location and direction for maybe 15 minutes to even and hour or more...never figured out why and even restarting [like a home computer] did not help. I even talked with a US Coast Guard officer at Station Rockland...they had no record of a system failure...go figure!
 
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