How Old are You? - Revisiting an Old PFs Thread

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Mentat
Amen to that last part, as I've - on many occasions - lost the most patronizing of adults in my sesquipedalianistic speech ("sesquipedalianism" is the use of big words, btw).

You’re losing me; Sesquipedalism would suffice but you just have to use big words.

 

[Fliption]

And now here comes Fliption with his analogies...

... this discussion on wisdom is like 2 people debating which of two soft drinks is the sweetest when one person has tasted both soft drinks and the other person has only tasted one.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I will answer that with every ounce of honesty I can muster. I've thought you have spoken with exceptional insightfulness for someone so young.

Thank you.

But be careful not to claim wisdom prematurely. Look at some of the young geniuses of humanity who have early on demonstrated their brilliance, but never attained wisdom. I think in some cases early brilliance can make one focus too much on the intellect and not enough on developing as a balanced human being.

So wisdom has to do with being a balanced human being? I thought being a balanced human being had to do with morality (and, perhaps, enlightenment).

But see, this is a sign of non-wisdom; that is, being in too much of a hurry to achieve something that takes a lifetime.

Well, it was my belief that it needn't take a lifetime. Otherwise, I would not have been in a hurry to achieve it.

When I was younger, my single greatest goal in life was to make absolutely certain that no older person could tell me [something to the effect of], "you'll understand when you get older".

This tendency hasn't entirely left me, although I am not nearly as competitive anymore.

Even Socrates required 3 or more times as many years of living as you to attain wisdom.

Socrates probably believed that it took a long time to attain wisdom. You know, if you think it takes an hour to do the dishes, you will take an hour to do the dishes. But, if you think it only takes a half hour, you will finish in a half hour.

IMO, wisdom isn't a matter of being smarter than all the stupid adults you can find. I don't believe it is a "relative" thing, but rather something that comes after being a well-rounded explorer of life. Unless one has lived long enough to explore the many avenues of life, then how can one be wise?

What if one is exposed to all of these avenues more quickly than another. Likely (according to your reasoning) this one would attain wisdom sooner, right?

You know, there is an old saying that wisdom never guides those who think they have it. Why not be content to declare yourself a genius but stay away from claiming precious wisdom so it is free to draw you towards itself.

Well, I had always thought that wisdom could be had in degrees (much like knowledge and understanding). If it can be, than even a young child is justified in declaring his/herself wise (at least to some minute degree). However, if it is a complete "black or white" type of thing, then I am not wise, and would not have assumed that I was.

Of course you haven't. But I do see an opportunity for kids to come here and not give enough weight to their lack of experience.

And how much weight is "enough"?

It would appear that you are saying that one must be wise, in order to understand whether they (or someone else) are wise or not. This would mean that you are wise, but that I (who do not yet understand how to measure wisdom, or even if it can be measured) am certainly not.

I don't agree with the tactic of someone condescending based on age, education, or anything else (which does go on here). We should all reason with evidence and logic, and may the best thinker prevail!

I like this.

By the same token, each of us have to weigh our experience and those we interact with. I still make the mistake of not listening as much as I should when I'm out of my area of expertise.

This brings up another interesting point: Is one who has lived longer necessarily more of an expert at living? It's something to think about, at least.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Fliption
And now here comes Fliption with his analogies...

... this discussion on wisdom is like 2 people debating which of two soft drinks is the sweetest when one person has tasted both soft drinks and the other person has only tasted one.

Perhaps you should expound on that, as I don't see where I (or LW Sleeth) fit in.

 

[Andy]

I am 17!

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Andy
I am 17!

Apparently you are proud of it, too.

 

[KLscilevothma]

I'm 17 too. I've checked that I'm one day older than Andy ! wow
We'll be 18 in August.

18 is a golden age, and I can do lots of things which I can't do before 18. I can have the right to vote, I can have a car licence, etc. At 18, I'll finish high school education too though it will be a tough year striving for good results in harsh public exams.

I hope I can be more and more intellectual as I grow older though I don't know whether I would grow wiser or not.

Anyway, life is beautiful, no matter what age we are at.

 

[BoulderHead]

I hope I can be more and more intellectual as I grow older though I don't know whether I would grow wiser or not.

Uh, you may need to wait until you're of drinking age before you have the answer for that one...

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Mentat
So wisdom has to do with being a balanced human being? I thought being a balanced human being had to do with morality (and, perhaps, enlightenment).

I was just referring to exposing yourself to a full range of human experiences. If you stay in your house and only read books, you may become a great book reader, but you cannot possibly learn anything about social skills, the experience of nature, romantic love, developing a talent such as playing music or cooking, athletic achievement, and so on. Some people dive into life with the intent of learning all they can; what lies dormant inside you will come to fruition as you explore. Others are intent only on pursuing that which furthers their selfish or obsessive desires, and so end up narrowly developed.

Originally posted by Mentat When I was younger, my single greatest goal in life was to make absolutely certain that no older person could tell me [something to the effect of], "you'll understand when you get older". This tendency hasn't entirely left me, although I am not nearly as competitive anymore.

I understand this. Something that goes on, particularly among men IMO, is this constant competition to establish a pecking order. Who is above whom, who is below whom, who the hell do you think you are? Being powerful is part of being manly (some think), and it has distinct advantages too to have power. It doesn’t matter to some if they are right or not, they have the power to do what they want, and so use that to enforce their will. Kids may sense this and feel it is unfair, which it can be.

I myself was raised in a tough situation, and after I left home was more or less insane for many years. I fought every hint of authority so that no one with power could harm me again. But the truth is, it isn’t power that’s to be feared, it is petty, small-minded, insecure, and evil people with power you have to look out for. A good and wise person with power can be most beneficial. If you are ready to resist anyone with power, you will miss out on those who can, and want to, help point you in directions that will assist your growth.

Still, I do understand what it is like to be a kid in a world where everyone has power but you. It won’t last. Yet you must realize that you have to earn power by being successful in areas where you are interested. No amount of demanding fairness will succeed. You cannot just trot in and demand equal say; believe me, you will get flattened (BIG TIME!). The old phrase “might makes right” still has relevance even if we’ve (especially Western culture) taken significant steps toward recognizing some deeper sense of what is “right.”

Here’s a little wisdom for you about how to deal with tyranny when you haven’t the power to overthrow it. I quote from the I Ching, hexagram 36, line 5:

“Darkening of the light as with Prince Chi. Perseverance furthers. Prince Chi lived at the court of the evil tyrant Chou Hsin, who . . . furnishes the historical example on which this whole situation is based. Prince Chi was a relative of the tyrant and could not withdraw from court; therefore he concealed his true sentiments . . . [and] did not allow external misery to deflect him from his convictions. This provides a teaching for those who cannot leave their posts in times of darkness. In order to escape danger, they need invincible perseverance of spirit and redoubled caution in their dealings with world.”

Originally posted by Mentat Well, it was my belief that it needn't take a lifetime. Otherwise, I would not have been in a hurry to achieve it. . . . Socrates probably believed that it took a long time to attain wisdom. You know, if you think it takes an hour to do the dishes, you will take an hour to do the dishes. But, if you think it only takes a half hour, you will finish in a half hour.

That is not a good theory. Just because you believe you can breathe under water, can you? Belief means nothing unless it is based on a realistic evaluation of the circumstances.

Originally posted by Mentat What if one is exposed to all of these avenues more quickly than another. Likely (according to your reasoning) this one would attain wisdom sooner, right?

Exactly how are you going to do this? You are stuck in your parent’s house, still required by law to attend school, still too young to enter into marriage, etc. It is all nice and safe for you now, with people watching out for you and your needs. But imagine how your perspectives will change after going through thousands of life situations. How are you going to acquire experience faster than by actually living it?

Originally posted by Mentat Well, I had always thought that wisdom could be had in degrees (much like knowledge and understanding). If it can be, than even a young child is justified in declaring his/herself wise (at least to some minute degree). However, if it is a complete "black or white" type of thing, then I am not wise, and would not have assumed that I was.

That’s true, it is acquired by degrees. What you do not understand is the role of personal experience in knowing. Until you personally experience, everything you think is theory. And that is exactly the difference between a young person ready to learn, and a mature person who has learned.

Originally posted by Mentat This brings up another interesting point: Is one who has lived longer necessarily more of an expert at living? It's something to think about, at least. . . . And how much weight is "enough"? . . . It would appear that you are saying that one must be wise, in order to understand whether they (or someone else) are wise or not. This would mean that you are wise, but that I (who do not yet understand how to measure wisdom, or even if it can be measured) am certainly not.

I have already acknowledged that older does not mean wiser. But, I think it is safe to say that it is wise to show respect for your elders (or anyone in power), and when you find out you shouldn’t respect someone in particular, don’t let it show. Just stop letting them influence you on anything that is important. When you want to supplant someone in power, work very, very hard at getting ready first, and keep your ambition to yourself. And do it because they (or their ideas) need replacing, because they are doing no good, and not for ego reasons.



Mentat, relax, take your time, be willing to participate in life. Have faith in yourself to do this so you don’t have to call yourself “wise” yet. Be a kid for awhile, it’s great! You have excellent potential, but if you are already closing off learning from others, you are dooming yourself to the fate you abhor so much.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Uh, you may need to wait until you're of drinking age before you have the answer for that one...

Hey, I was just about to say we need to get Boulderhead in on this discussion.

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Hey, I was just about to say we need to get Boulderhead in on this discussion.

Rather than state my age and be thought senile, what I would add to this discussion is that from my experiences I believe wisdom is something born of age. I feel guilty saying it, but I’d find it difficult to accept, for example, that a young person who had never had a romantic fling could be ‘wise’. He/she might be very intellectual and exceptionally gifted in any number of ways (making me look like an idiot by comparison), but what am I supposed to think when this person starts feeding me words of wisdom about 'relationships' when I know they have never even remotely experienced such a thing? Did they read it in a book or have it whispered in their ear by a guru and then just accept it as fact?
This is not to say that a young person cannot be intelligent, well read, and be better prepared to make a decision that has the best chance of turning out to be correct. But I just don’t necessarily think that ‘wisdom’ is the right word to use in this case.
Hey, old folks have to have something to claim exclusive rights to, don’t we?
… I mean besides the keys to the car.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Hey, old folks have to have something to claim exclusive rights to, don’t we? … I mean besides the keys to the car.

There you go . . . one of the few people here older than me has wisely spoken.

 

[quantumdude]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Rather than state my age and be thought senile,

We've read 632 of your posts in PF v3.0 alone. Go ahead and state your age.

edit: That's 636. Now who's senile?

 

[Fliption]

Originally posted by Mentat
Perhaps you should expound on that, as I don't see where I (or LW Sleeth) fit in.

Ahh now see if you were wise...

Seriously, I'll see if I can explain what I meant.

Lets sync drinking the softdrinks to age. Let's say everyone has to drink softdrink 1 when they are 10 years old. You drink it and swear it is the sweetest thing you have ever tasted. Almost all 10 year olds have the same experience.

LWSleeth comes along and tells you that everyone has to drink softdrink 1 and 2 at the age of 30 and compare them. He tells you that he also thought nothing could possibly be sweeter than softdrink 1. Until he turned 30. Then he realized he was wrong. And then you also found out that everyone over 30 claimed the same experience.

So what would your position on the sweetness of softdrink 1 be? Hopefully, you would enjoy softdrink 1 until it's time to try 2. Your attitude would probably be "will have to wait and see". But you would never be able to justify stomping your feet and telling people over 30 they were wrong. Would you?

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by Tom
We've read 632 of your posts in PF v3.0 alone. Go ahead and state your age.

You mean people actual read my posts?
Yes, what I should have said was “rather than state my age and thus put forth a possible cause to explain my behavior…”

edit: That's 636. Now who's senile?

Say, I hadn’t even noticed how close I’m getting close to that ‘magic’ number!

An interesting thing about forums is that my mind often forms an image of various members. Seeing a photograph of them later, or dicovering an exact age interferes with my image making activities and requires me to make readjustments. I’m in my very own little Matrix, being used by DNA…

...Perhaps I wouldn't want the red pill after all. At any rate, I will wait to see if PF's very own Tomster will post his photo next members day before deciding to give into the temptation myself.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by BoulderHead


At any rate, I will wait to see if PF's very own Tomster will post his photo next members day before deciding to give into the temptation myself.

when is members' day?

 

[Integral]

Well, it was my belief that it needn't take a lifetime. Otherwise, I would not have been in a hurry to achieve it

Wisdom is one of those things that cannot be sought, it either comes or it doesn't. If fact the harder you seek it the less likely you are to find it. Identical life expericnces will make one man wise and another insane, there is no rules and no path. Indeed, it may be something you are born with, but it cannot fully bloom until you have suffered the blows life deals out.

One thing that is certian, the louder you proclaim your wisdom the less likely you are to have it.

For an execellent description of a path to wisdom read Hermen Hesse's book Sidharatha

BTW: I totally agree with everything LWseeth has written.

 

[Artman]

I'm 6.52 in dog years.

I have to say that I agree with LWseeth as well.

First of all, Mentat, if you hadn't posted your age, you could pass for an adult in most areas of this forum (I say this as a compliment ). The same goes for the other youthful members here. They are a very mature group of people and many seem wise beyond their years.

Originally posted by Mentat...When I was younger, my single greatest goal in life was to make absolutely certain that no older person could tell me [something to the effect of], "you'll understand when you get older".

There is a story about the Karate star Bruce Lee that I think has some application to this statement. Bruce Lee used the following illustration when teaching. he would fill a cup to the top with tea, then he would ask the student if they can put more tea in the cup. The answer, of course, is "no" because the cup is already full.

As good as he was at Martial Arts, Bruce Lee would empty himself of preconcieved notions before viewing a new or different style. He would observe it as if starting from the beginning and then he would fit it in with his own style. In effect, he would "empty his cup" so he could fill it again.

Personally, I prefer for people to underestimate me in most things. I can accomplish more when people don't know what I'm capable of.

 

[Andy]

Yes I am proud of being 17, what's not to be proud off? and i also have my own car keys!

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I was just referring to exposing yourself to a full range of human experiences. If you stay in your house and only read books, you may become a great book reader, but you cannot possibly learn anything about social skills, the experience of nature, romantic love, developing a talent such as playing music or cooking, athletic achievement, and so on. Some people dive into life with the intent of learning all they can; what lies dormant inside you will come to fruition as you explore. Others are intent only on pursuing that which furthers their selfish or obsessive desires, and so end up narrowly developed.

But the discussion is on wisdom, and it appears to me that you believe wisdom to be inseperably associated with broad developement.

I understand this. Something that goes on, particularly among men IMO, is this constant competition to establish a pecking order. Who is above whom, who is below whom, who the hell do you think you are? Being powerful is part of being manly (some think), and it has distinct advantages too to have power. It doesn’t matter to some if they are right or not, they have the power to do what they want, and so use that to enforce their will. Kids may sense this and feel it is unfair, which it can be.

I myself was raised in a tough situation, and after I left home was more or less insane for many years. I fought every hint of authority so that no one with power could harm me again. But the truth is, it isn’t power that’s to be feared, it is petty, small-minded, insecure, and evil people with power you have to look out for. A good and wise person with power can be most beneficial. If you are ready to resist anyone with power, you will miss out on those who can, and want to, help point you in directions that will assist your growth.

Still, I do understand what it is like to be a kid in a world where everyone has power but you. It won’t last. Yet you must realize that you have to earn power by being successful in areas where you are interested. No amount of demanding fairness will succeed. You cannot just trot in and demand equal say; believe me, you will get flattened (BIG TIME!). The old phrase “might makes right” still has relevance even if we’ve (especially Western culture) taken significant steps toward recognizing some deeper sense of what is “right.”

Alright. I never really wanted to have power over anyone else, and don't mind someone's having power over me, provided I believe they have earned it, or that they deserve it.

I guess you're right about demanding fair treatment; however, I still can't understand how all of these people, who hold down anyone with potential, could have been in my situation before, but learned nothing from it.

That is not a good theory. Just because you believe you can breathe under water, can you? Belief means nothing unless it is based on a realistic evaluation of the circumstances.

Oh I know this. Still, belief can be a limiting factor. You see, if someone has a realistic evaluation of the circumstances, then they will not impose unnecessary limits on themesleves.

Exactly how are you going to do this? You are stuck in your parent’s house, still required by law to attend school, still too young to enter into marriage, etc. It is all nice and safe for you now, with people watching out for you and your needs. But imagine how your perspectives will change after going through some situations like this:

You fall in love and get your heart broken three times before you finish high school, you have to leave home and look out for yourself, you go into the military and do a tour of Viet Nam (or its equivalent), you do drugs, you live in Phoenix, you get out of the military and go to live in Connecticut, you move to New York City, you fall in love again, you do wicked drugs and get so sick you decide to move to St. Louis and enroll in college, you work hard and get a scholarship to a major university, you get married, you have doubts about what you are studying and lose your scholarship, you move to California, you work at jobs ranging from gas station attendant to landscape assistant, you get divorced, you get back into college, you graduate, you start your own business, you are terrible at running a business day-to-day, you go back to college for more education, you change careers, you marry the office manager of your failed business, your sister comes to live with you dying of cancer, your grandparents die, your aunt and uncle die, your parents die, everyone is dying, you suddenly realize the inevitable truth of your own temporary existence, not just conceptually, but with brutal clarity . . .

Now, all that is just points along the way . . . the way itself is packed with juicy details. So again I ask you, how are you going to acquire experience faster than by actually living it?

By learning from the mistakes of others. Sure, one can attain knowledge from making mistakes, and learning from them. But isn't it the wise course to learn from the mistakes of others, so as to avoid them yourself? After all, no one lives forever; so one can either waste most of their life, making the same mistakes that millions have made before them; or they can learn from the mistakes of others, and avoid them - thus succesfully making a [if nothing else] unique life for themselves.

That’s true, it is acquired by degrees. What you do not understand is the role of personal experience in knowing. Until you personally experience, everything you think is theory. And that is exactly the difference between a young person ready to learn, and a mature person who has learned.

Yet, isn't it wiser to simply avoid that which you disapprove of, based on "theory" (as you put it)? Why should one waste valuable time, just to have the experiences of billions of others - in times past - when they could have just trusted "theory" (and experiences that are told to them), and gone down a better path than their predecessors?

I have already acknowledged that older does not mean wiser. But, I think it is safe to say that it is wise to show respect for your elders (or anyone in power)

But, you see? You have equated being elderly with having power.

Mentat, relax, take your time, be willing to participate in life. Have faith in yourself to do this so you don’t have to call yourself “wise” yet. Be a kid for awhile, it’s great!

I've never been a "kid". It has always been my opinion that a child is a nymph adult (if you'll excuse the analogy), and that to nurture childhood is to help an ambitious child explore his/her potential.

You have excellent potential, but if you are already closing off learning from others, you are dooming yourself to the fate you abhor so much.

But I'm not closing myself off from learning. In fact, I've been denouncing that kind of behavior (usually committed by adults who think themsleves superior to children).

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Fliption
Ahh now see if you were wise...

Seriously, I'll see if I can explain what I meant.

Lets sync drinking the softdrinks to age. Let's say everyone has to drink softdrink 1 when they are 10 years old. You drink it and swear it is the sweetest thing you have ever tasted. Almost all 10 year olds have the same experience.

LWSleeth comes along and tells you that everyone has to drink softdrink 1 and 2 at the age of 30 and compare them. He tells you that he also thought nothing could possibly be sweeter than softdrink 1. Until he turned 30. Then he realized he was wrong. And then you also found out that everyone over 30 claimed the same experience.

So what would your position on the sweetness of softdrink 1 be? Hopefully, you would enjoy softdrink 1 until it's time to try 2. Your attitude would probably be "will have to wait and see". But you would never be able to justify stomping your feet and telling people over 30 they were wrong. Would you?

Oh no, I would simply take a sip of some 30-year-old's soft drink, so to speak. I would definitely think that the 30-year-old would be wrong for patronizing me, simply because he thinks I haven't tasted soft drink #2 (though I might have, at some point). And I would speak out against people setting ages on when one should drink softdrink #2.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Integral
Wisdom is one of those things that cannot be sought, it either comes or it doesn't. If fact the harder you seek it the less likely you are to find it. Identical life expericnces will make one man wise and another insane, there is no rules and no path. Indeed, it may be something you are born with, but it cannot fully bloom until you have suffered the blows life deals out.

One thing that is certian, the louder you proclaim your wisdom the less likely you are to have it.

For an execellent description of a path to wisdom read Hermen Hesse's book Sidharatha

BTW: I totally agree with everything LWseeth has written.

And perhaps, when I am old, I will also agree with LW Sleeth.

There is one term that I wish to draw to your and his attention: unspoiled.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Mentat
But the discussion is on wisdom, and it appears to me that you believe wisdom to be inseperably associated with broad developement.

Yes. The broader the better. And it doesn't mean you can't specialize in something too.

Originally posted by Mentat
I guess you're right about demanding fair treatment; however, I still can't understand how all of these people, who hold down anyone with potential, could have been in my situation before, but learned nothing from it

Good point. People tend to do unto others as has been done unto them; that's partially why there are too few wise people.

Originally posted by Mentat
Sure, one can attain knowledge from making mistakes, and learning from them. But isn't it the wise course to learn from the mistakes of others, so as to avoid them yourself?

Yes, and that is a smart way to see it. But it doesn't matter whose mistakes you recognize and avoid, you are still going to make your own mistakes. And the more you seek true wisdom, the more mistakes you will make because you will find yourself following paths outside the "rank and file" (i.e., where there may not be much support or advice for you).

Also, and this is main reason I am responding to you again, I realized after I wrote that little collection of events in my last post that it was all mistakes and hard times that can hit a person as they mature. But there are also the successes, especially if someone is really trying to learn. When you see a person who has been through a lot and is still happy and hopeful, you know they've been learning and it is that which they choose to focus on, not the mistakes.

Originally posted by Mentat
But, you see? You have equated being elderly with having power.

Well, how many children do you know in power?

Originally posted by Mentat
I've never been a "kid". It has always been my opinion that a child is a nymph adult (if you'll excuse the analogy), and that to nurture childhood is to help an ambitious child explore his/her potential.

Too bad. What about enjoying yourself, having fun, being happy?

Originally posted by Mentat
But I'm not closing myself off from learning. In fact, I've been denouncing that kind of behavior (usually committed by adults who think themsleves superior to children).

I want you to think about something that I believe is a pretty good insight. If someone habitually and mindlessly goes along with social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc. just because "that's the way it's done," then wouldn't you say they are contemptable rank and file of your signature?

However, if you habitually and mindlessly go against social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc., then how are you different? A habitual contrary is no more conscious than a habitual sheep.

In other words, don't let bad experiences with oppressive people spoil your outlook by giving you an "attitude" where you should be neutral and open. If you do let it get to you like that, then those people who've oppressed you will continue to do so in absentia, and with your active participation!

 

[Fliption]

Originally posted by Mentat
Oh no, I would simply take a sip of some 30-year-old's soft drink, so to speak. I would definitely think that the 30-year-old would be wrong for patronizing me, simply because he thinks I haven't tasted soft drink #2 (though I might have, at some point). And I would speak out against people setting ages on when one should drink softdrink #2.

Well let me be more clear. It is not possible to drink these softdrinks before the age I specified. This is the whole point. That's what makes the analogy work.

You cannot have the experience of being a 50 year old when you are 12.

 

[Andy]

You cannot have the experience of being a 50 year old when you are 12.

Maybe you can? I am not too hot with this but if you where from the same planet as Mork (from Mork and Mindy) then wouldn't you get younger as you get older or is it get older as you get younger?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Yes, and that is a smart way to see it. But it doesn't matter whose mistakes you recognize and avoid, you are still going to make your own mistakes. And the more you seek true wisdom, the more mistakes you will make because you will find yourself following paths outside the "rank and file" (i.e., where there may not be much support or advice for you).

Also, and this is main reason I am responding to you again, I realized after I wrote that little collection of events in my last post that it was all mistakes and hard times that can hit a person as they mature. But there are also the successes, especially if someone is really trying to learn. When you see a person who has been through a lot and is still happy and hopeful, you know they've been learning and it is that which they choose to focus on, not the mistakes.

Good point.

Well, how many children do you know in power?

I suppose I could mention King Josiah, but I suppose you are correct. Of course, it only seems to me as though this is a by-product of elderly peoples' missing the wisdom of young ones.

Too bad. What about enjoying yourself, having fun, being happy?

Learning makes me happy.

I want you to think about something that I believe is a pretty good insight. If someone habitually and mindlessly goes along with social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc. just because "that's the way it's done," then wouldn't you say they are contemptable rank and file of your signature?

However, if you habitually and mindlessly go against social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc., then how are you different? A habitual contrary is no more conscious than a habitual sheep.

In other words, don't let bad experiences with oppressive people spoil your outlook by giving you an "attitude" where you should be neutral and open. If you do let it get to you like that, then those people who've oppressed you will continue to do so in absentia, and with your active participation!

Thanks for that, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Fliption
Well let me be more clear. It is not possible to drink these softdrinks before the age I specified. This is the whole point. That's what makes the analogy work.

You cannot have the experience of being a 50 year old when you are 12.

What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

 

[Artman]

Originally posted by Mentat
What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

How do you know they are telling the truth?

It is kind of like learning to tie your shoes by reading a set of instructions, yet never actually having done it. Would you really know how?

 

[Integral]

What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by Integral
I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

oh? and how do you earn wisdom? get to a certain age and it's yours? i would agree on many of your guy's statements:
1)wisdom can be acquired through experience. (a boy living in a rough innercity probably has more than a middle class boy becuase he is exposed to more experiences)

2) age is not a requirment for the gaining of wisdom. (like Mentat so wisely said: it only gives one more chances to gain wisdom)

3) therefore this would mean that older people are more likely to be wise, but that does not rule out the rest of us either. (if we spend our time well)

 

[Integral]

Did you read my post up above?

Wisdom is a result of life experiances, it is not a learned thing. Not everyone is capable of learning from life experience thus EARNING wisdom.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Perhaps I can add 'two cents' that will assist.

In defining Wisdom, from the example in the Bible of the Wisdom of Solomen, I will assume you know the story.

Hence what we find is that Solomen excersized "Good Judgment", in my opinon that is really what wisdom is, the ability to excersize "Good Judgments" which is why the appearance of the need of experianced knowledge, as that is the tool that assists in enabling the path towards good judgments.

Solomen had to draw from a knoweldge of human nature, knowing that the real mother of the child would sacrifce herself, to save her child.

It is from that base of knowledge that he was able to "test for the truth", and it is from the result of that test that he was able to excersize good judgment.

It is an ability to find 'truthful' knowledge, that leads to the ability to excersize good judgment, hence appear as wise.

But I agree with Integral, it is earned, and you have no knowledge of the price you must pay beforehand, hence it is given to you everytime, or not.

As the Bible tells, all true wisdom comes from God, Human wisdom is easily demonstrated as folly, and I could give example of that second line, but it is iconoclastic, and people dislike you violating (demonstrating their errors) there idols.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Artman
How do you know they are telling the truth?

It is kind of like learning to tie your shoes by reading a set of instructions, yet never actually having done it. Would you really know how?

This question has to do with knowledge, not wisdom. Besides, yes I'd know how, provided the book was accurately written, and I understood it correctly.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Integral
I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

With all due respect, prove it.

Besides, if one is going to postulate that wisdom must be earned, then one should also include how it is earned.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by Mentat
With all due respect, prove it.

Besides, if one is going to postulate that wisdom must be earned, then one should also include how it is earned.

Well, I think Integral is saying what several of us have been trying to explain to you, but you don't have enough life experience yet to recognize what's being said. I say that not sarcastically, but sincerely.

What you don't know yet is how crucial experience is to knowing. I am contrasting actual knowing to believing or thinking or suspecting or feeling. Right now you are looking ahead to important things with beliefs about them, but not much (if any) experience with them.

True, just getting experience with marriage, for example, doesn't automatically mean you will become wise about marriage; but no experience with marriage definitely means no wisdom. You might have good theories about it, and you might be the sort of human being who naturally will excel at it, but that still isn't wisdom. Wisdom specifically comes from what you learn from doing something. That is why it is "earned," because you can't just sit in your room and get wise by thinking, only by doing. That doing usually has a price too because of the mistakes made, and this is why a lot of people stop doing anything new as they get older and their brains atrophy.

I will stick my neck out a little and say that wisdom is applied primarily to human interaction and personal growth, and as such the most powerful wisdom is derived from understanding human nature first, then understanding how the "world" works (i.e., the various social, legal, political, familial, etc. systems), then the nature of physical universe, and finally understanding human potentials and limitations in those realms. As you can see, there is a lot to "do" to acquire knowledge like that. Just living and studying can tell one quite a bit about the last three areas on the list, but understanding human nature, that is killer. Some of the wisest people have said, like Socrates, to "know thy self" first and the rest will follow.

So, you should be able to see why you can't possibly have much wisdom -- because you haven't had time to do much. Will you be one of the rare life adventurers with the courage to fully participate in living for the sake of pursuing widom? Or will you become another of those who fall victim to life's struggles and so gives up? Or worse still, will you be among the ranks of the most foolish of all -- those who think they are wise without having done anything?


[EDIT]

I thought I should add that, speaking for myself, I can't yet claim to be wise. It is something I aspire to, however, so I do feel it is important to understand what it is now so I actually do what it takes to make progress.